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8/18-8/21 Red Sox @ Tigers Series Thread
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Post by jmei on Aug 18, 2016 17:02:40 GMT -5
Exactly. There seems to be a group that is either playing Devil's advocate or just being contrarians but the reason the pen is spent is because... Farrell spent them earlier in the season. Its not rocket science folks. Tazawa is on a pace to pitch less innings and make fewer appearances than any time in the last 4 years. The claims that he has been burned out is either totally bogus, or Junichi just cannot go the distance of a full season (without special care). So long as he is on the roster he needs to shoulder his load. If he can't throw 60 innings or make 60 appearances in 162 games he probably needs to be replaced. When he is good, he is very very good, but all to often he is horrid. You have to look at the distribution of his innings. Remember, he was on the DL in July and they've not been using him as much ever since he came off the DL. In the first three months of the season, he made 35 appearances and threw 32.1 innings, which is more than you'd like considering his history of being worn down.
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Post by scottysmalls on Aug 18, 2016 17:20:54 GMT -5
Honestly, I have a bigger issue here with Tazawa even still being on the team. We all know he's spent, so why doesn't Dombrowski? Hembree is a better option at this point (as are, I believe, multiple other available options). Clearly Farrell should have left Ross in or put Ziegler in, but we all know Farrell is a terrible manager so why is Dombrowski still giving him the option of going to Tazawa, shouldn't he also recognize how bad Farrell is at this aspect of his job?
As far as having a bullpen with no options, a good manager makes the most of this bullpen by pitching relievers in the proper situations, Farrell doesn't do that. While I think you could argue that injuries to Koji and Smith were somewhat predictable, I don't think it's fair to say Dombrowski did a terrible job assembling this bullpen because if healthy Kimbrel - Koji - Smith - Ziegler - pre-fry-cooked-Tazawa (maybe he doesn't get burned out if the first three guys are all healthy at the beginning) is a pretty solid one to me.
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Post by DesignatedKyle on Aug 18, 2016 17:30:20 GMT -5
I think that the whole "it's the players on the field" argument is taking it to the absurd. If he were playing a lineup of utility guys while Betts, Ortiz, et al rode pine, you wouldn't blame the players for not winning games. A manager's job is to properly identify the best players for given roles, and to put them in position to succeed, and help the team succeed. That's it. Farrell simply is absolutely terrible at doing that with his bullpen. His in-game management has reproducibly lost games that they should win. The team reproducibly underperformed their run differential. They reproducibly have weak records in 1-run games. Those are (game) management issues. spot on
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Post by Don Caballero on Aug 18, 2016 18:34:55 GMT -5
It's amusing that you guys rip on Farrell when he makes terrible decisions that lose us winnable games, but when we win games like last night where he didn't make a bad decision because he didn't have a chance to because the rain shortened the game, no one says a peep. So hypocritical.
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Post by mattpicard on Aug 18, 2016 18:48:00 GMT -5
It's amusing that you guys rip on Farrell when he makes terrible decisions that lose us winnable games, but when we win games like last night where he didn't make a bad decision because he didn't have a chance to because the rain shortened the game, no one says a peep. So hypocritical. Sorry, I didn't mean for that to be a legitimate post in any way, hence the full italics. It was more me trying to take more shots at Farrell, not at you, but I see how it came across that way.
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Post by Don Caballero on Aug 18, 2016 19:01:14 GMT -5
Sorry, I didn't mean for that to be a legitimate post in any way, hence the full italics. It was more me trying to take more shots at Farrell, not at you, but I see how it came across that way. No harm no foul, I didn't take it to heart. And besides, tonight I can't even defend Farrell, using Tazawa there with a fully rested bullpen is just flat out wrong.
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Post by p23w on Aug 18, 2016 19:19:32 GMT -5
Tazawa is on a pace to pitch less innings and make fewer appearances than any time in the last 4 years. The claims that he has been burned out is either totally bogus, or Junichi just cannot go the distance of a full season (without special care). So long as he is on the roster he needs to shoulder his load. If he can't throw 60 innings or make 60 appearances in 162 games he probably needs to be replaced. When he is good, he is very very good, but all to often he is horrid. You have to look at the distribution of his innings. Remember, he was on the DL in July and they've not been using him as much ever since he came off the DL. In the first three months of the season, he made 35 appearances and threw 32.1 innings, which is more than you'd like considering his history of being worn down. Are you suggesting that because Carson Smith was a no show this year that Tazawa was over used? Where is Mike Timlin when you need him. If Tazawa is to have value to this team he needs to either suck it up, or let it be known when he is less than 100%. As you pointed out Junichi has been on the DL, he has been used sparingly since, he is on pace for the fewest IP and appearances in 4 years. What's his value to the team if he either can't answer the bell, or when he does he is horrible. I've seen this team let good relievers go, trade high for marquee name relievers, and stay too long with relievers that showed promise, lost it, and never gained it back. IF Tazawa's "distribution" is to blame, then I don't want to see him on the roster until he is 100%
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Post by telson13 on Aug 18, 2016 19:20:54 GMT -5
Because he puts the worst pitchers in the game at the most crucial time. Pitch Tazawa and Abad in 16-2 games instead.The only way to make this team Farrell-proof is to have 7 identically good relief pitchers so he can't make any bad choices. Although he'd probably overuse certain ones anyway making them less effective. I love this rationale. And I am sorry to pick on you here, because I know jmei was writing this regarding Barnes, and there have been many more posts like this. But I would ask, is there anyone here who could tell me the next 16-2 is going to come up? Or can someone tell me how many 3-1 games are going to occur over the next 5 days. The whole point is that JF has to make real time decisions, with only past usage as a barometer of workload. I hate losing this game, but the bullpen problems have been addressed by DD, multiple times through the offseason and year. The unit has collapsed, in part, because of the starting pitching woes throughout the year. Maybe JF made a mistake here, I don't know, but you just can't marginalize a reliever and pitch the same ones every game, or you'll risk overusing the good ones, as many think JF has done with Tazawa. It's arguable that the poor bullpen performance is, in large part, due to ineffective allocation of resources. It should be no surprise that bullpens have routinely been a problem for the Sox during Farrell's tenure. They were saved in '13 because they had a transcendent performance by Koji (who was the 4th closer that year...a fact that shows how much trouble Farrell has with identifying talent on his own team), but since then, it's a mess. And while some of it is talent level, much of it is poor bullpen management.
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Post by jmei on Aug 18, 2016 19:21:28 GMT -5
It's not up to the player to decide when he should and shouldn't pitch. It's up to the manager. And yes, I agree, he probably shouldn't be on the roster in his current state.
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Post by soxfan06 on Aug 18, 2016 19:46:19 GMT -5
Let's just say, I'm glad for everyone here's sake I was at work during the game.
It is amazing that the higher ups are letting the worst manager in the league piss away one of the most talented rosters in the majors.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 18, 2016 20:41:57 GMT -5
Because he puts the worst pitchers in the game at the most crucial time. Pitch Tazawa and Abad in 16-2 games instead.The only way to make this team Farrell-proof is to have 7 identically good relief pitchers so he can't make any bad choices. Although he'd probably overuse certain ones anyway making them less effective. I love this rationale. And I am sorry to pick on you here, because I know jmei was writing this regarding Barnes, and there have been many more posts like this. But I would ask, is there anyone here who could tell me the next 16-2 is going to come up? Or can someone tell me how many 3-1 games are going to occur over the next 5 days. The whole point is that JF has to make real time decisions, with only past usage as a barometer of workload. I hate losing this game, but the bullpen problems have been addressed by DD, multiple times through the offseason and year. The unit has collapsed, in part, because of the starting pitching woes throughout the year. Maybe JF made a mistake here, I don't know, but you just can't marginalize a reliever and pitch the same ones every game, or you'll risk overusing the good ones, as many think JF has done with Tazawa. I was being sarcastic when I said 16-2. But Tazawa is obviously not right so he shouldn't be pitching in the 8th inning of a close game. Neither should Abad, until he shows he can get guys out in lower leverage. Ross was pitching great and only had 10 pitches. Ziegler is also a far better choice to start the inning clean.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 18, 2016 20:43:50 GMT -5
Tazawa is on a pace to pitch less innings and make fewer appearances than any time in the last 4 years. The claims that he has been burned out is either totally bogus, or Junichi just cannot go the distance of a full season (without special care). So long as he is on the roster he needs to shoulder his load. If he can't throw 60 innings or make 60 appearances in 162 games he probably needs to be replaced. When he is good, he is very very good, but all to often he is horrid. You have to look at the distribution of his innings. Remember, he was on the DL in July and they've not been using him as much ever since he came off the DL. In the first three months of the season, he made 35 appearances and threw 32.1 innings, which is more than you'd like considering his history of being worn down. And that also doesn't count when he'd warm up for 4 straight days and not come in. That also takes a toll.
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Post by p23w on Aug 18, 2016 20:45:21 GMT -5
It's not up to the player to decide when he should and shouldn't pitch. It's up to the manager. And yes, I agree, he probably shouldn't be on the roster in his current state. It should be up to a combination of the player and coaches (I'd include the bullpen catcher) to determine whether a relief pitcher is fit to pitch. Unless some one tells the manager otherwise, then the manager will assume the best. At the very worst, a word of caution from the coaches would give the manager cause to use a quick hook.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 18, 2016 20:52:12 GMT -5
You have to look at the distribution of his innings. Remember, he was on the DL in July and they've not been using him as much ever since he came off the DL. In the first three months of the season, he made 35 appearances and threw 32.1 innings, which is more than you'd like considering his history of being worn down. Are you suggesting that because Carson Smith was a no show this year that Tazawa was over used? Where is Mike Timlin when you need him. If Tazawa is to have value to this team he needs to either suck it up, or let it be known when he is less than 100%. As you pointed out Junichi has been on the DL, he has been used sparingly since, he is on pace for the fewest IP and appearances in 4 years. What's his value to the team if he either can't answer the bell, or when he does he is horrible. I've seen this team let good relievers go, trade high for marquee name relievers, and stay too long with relievers that showed promise, lost it, and never gained it back. IF Tazawa's "distribution" is to blame, then I don't want to see him on the roster until he is 100% Ya know, there were a lot of people in game day threads ripping Farrell for pitching Tazawa in 6 run games this year and warming him up when they have a 4 run lead. Meanwhile, Ross actually went 9 days in May where he did not pitch and only pitched once in two weeks. And by the way, Ross' FIP this season is 2.93. Tazawa's is 4.62. And Farrell still thinks that Tazawa was a better reliever today as evidenced by who pitched the 7th and who pitched the 8th.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 18, 2016 20:52:56 GMT -5
It's not up to the player to decide when he should and shouldn't pitch. It's up to the manager. And yes, I agree, he probably shouldn't be on the roster in his current state. It should be up to a combination of the player and coaches (I'd include the bullpen catcher) to determine whether a relief pitcher is fit to pitch. Unless some one tells the manager otherwise, then the manager will assume the best. At the very worst, a word of caution from the coaches would give the manager cause to use a quick hook. Tazawa actually did complain that he had been warmed up way too often and that was why he wasn't pitching as well.
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Post by telson13 on Aug 18, 2016 20:56:27 GMT -5
I think that the whole "it's the players on the field" argument is taking it to the absurd. If he were playing a lineup of utility guys while Betts, Ortiz, et al rode pine, you wouldn't blame the players for not winning games. A manager's job is to properly identify the best players for given roles, and to put them in position to succeed, and help the team succeed. That's it. Farrell simply is absolutely terrible at doing that with his bullpen. His in-game management has reproducibly lost games that they should win. The team reproducibly underperformed their run differential. They reproducibly have weak records in 1-run games. Those are (game) management issues. spot on Since 2007, Bruce Bochy is an aggregate 9 games better than the W-L records expected for the Giants based on run differential. That's just one game over per year. Farrell is averaging more than two games worse. I'm not sure what Girardi's done in NY, but they're on track to be the first team in history to have a negative run differential of -20 or worse and still have a winning record three years in a row. Just the difference from Bochy to Farrell: 3+ wins...that's like going from 2015 Wade Miley to 2015 Chris Sale as your 3rd starter. I believe Farrell does some things well, but his in-game management, especially of the bullpen, is costing this team at least a handful of wins, and may have them finishing out of the playoffs when they should be in.
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Post by brendan98 on Aug 18, 2016 21:30:45 GMT -5
Does anybody remember a season with even half as many gut-wrenching losses as this season?
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Post by mgoetze on Aug 18, 2016 21:31:31 GMT -5
If Tazawa is to have value to this team he needs to either suck it up, or let it be known when he is less than 100%. Tazawa even told the media he was being overused. If you knew anything about Japanese culture, you would understand how remarkable that was. In any case you can be sure the media weren't the first people he talked to about it.
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Post by mattpicard on Aug 18, 2016 21:42:51 GMT -5
If Tazawa is to have value to this team he needs to either suck it up, or let it be known when he is less than 100%. Tazawa even told the media he was being overused. If you knew anything about Japanese culture, you would understand how remarkable that was. In any case you can be sure the media weren't the first people he talked to about it. The quotes, for those interested: June 2nd:July 9th: Also, this was so on point: April 19th: Red Sox Stats @redsoxstats Tazawa now up to 24 swings and misses on 51 swings against him this year. Yowza Jason Bonini @jason_Bonini Apr 19 @redsoxstats too bad his arm will be shot by June
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2016 21:47:58 GMT -5
DD can't be blamed for the injuries to Koji or Smith. But his trades for Abad and Ziegler have both been whiffs so far.
While I do think that Farrell gets too much blame on this forum, he has made some questionable bullpen moves lately, to say the least. I think he needs to win a playoff series to keep his job. Anything less and he's gone.
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Post by mattpicard on Aug 18, 2016 21:56:30 GMT -5
DD can't be blamed for the injuries to Koji or Smith. But his trades for Abad and Ziegler have both been whiffs so far. While I do think that Farrell gets too much blame on this forum, he has made some questionable bullpen moves lately, to say the least. I think he needs to win a playoff series to keep his job. Anything less and he's gone. I loved (and still do love) the Ziegler trade. Seriously, the guy has a 2.45 ERA for us, and a .246 BA allowed (that's after today). His FIP was at 2.85 before today's outing, and he'd only allowed 20% of inherited runners to score with the Sox (Hembree's at 35%; Kimbrel's at 50%; Taz at 63%). He's in many ways been a savior. He gave up a cheap hit on a drawn in infield today, walked a terrific hitter in JDM, and then had a bad walk to Romine. People have been giving him way too much s**t, in my opinion.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Aug 18, 2016 22:34:36 GMT -5
My usual Thursday night social thing started with my leaving the house and listening to the game on the radio -- starting with the bottom of the 8th. It's the first time I can remember a managerial decision (and its far too predictable aftermath) nearly making me feel ill. Words like "indefensible" are thrown around so often that we need stronger ones for decisions like that.
Junichi Tazawa, from 5/28 on: 6.41 ERA, 7.06 FIP, 5.32 xFIP, .289 / .348 / .602 allowed.
Improving trend of late? Since July 26, 7.20 ERA, 11.94 FIP, 7.15 xFIP, .273 / .407 / .727 allowed.
Robbie Ross's last 4 days: off, off, 8 pitches, off. He had thrown 10 pitches in the 7th.
Three times this year Ross has pitched a scoreless inning and then come back for another. Hitters went 0/9 with 4 K in them.
Junichi Tazawa vs. RHB in 2016: .267 / .323 / .500. And that includes the early season when he held hitters to .162 / .230 / .221 overall. His splits since May 28 might be something like .325 / .375 / .670.
Robbie Ross vs. RHB in 2016: .248 / .333 / .307. That JF still thinks of him as a lefty specialist is mind-boggling. It would be like him thinking that Mookie Betts would be an ideal leadoff ... OK, bad example.
Ian Kinsler has a career platoon split 67 OPS points larger than average, but Erick Aybar is precisely the opposite -- 67 points smaller (reverse, in fact). Cabrera is 19 points smaller than average. There was no rationale for changing to a RHP just to get the platoon advantage.
And if for some reason you don't want Ross to pitch a perfect 8th inning, there are of course Ziegler, Barnes, and even Hembree as obviously better options than Tazawa. But the very well-rested Ross (a/k/a "you best reliever, you incredible moron") for two innings, provided he cruises through his first, should have been Plan A.
The comp here would be pinch-hitting Alex Rodriguez, were he on the roster, for a healthy David Ortiz vs. a LHR (with mild platoon splits) in a key situation.
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Post by James Dunne on Aug 19, 2016 7:01:38 GMT -5
Does anybody remember a season with even half as many gut-wrenching losses as this season? 2003.
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Post by brianthetaoist on Aug 19, 2016 7:12:17 GMT -5
DD can't be blamed for the injuries to Koji or Smith. But his trades for Abad and Ziegler have both been whiffs so far. While I do think that Farrell gets too much blame on this forum, he has made some questionable bullpen moves lately, to say the least. I think he needs to win a playoff series to keep his job. Anything less and he's gone. Actually, I think DD can be blamed a bit for the injury to Smith ... it was widely mentioned at the time of the trade that the injury risk to Smith was high. It was absolutely part of the package with Smith that he could blow out his elbow. Ziegler, otoh, has been a good addition.
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Post by ryan24 on Aug 19, 2016 7:43:54 GMT -5
Well I am glad everyone got that out of their system. Now we move on to another day and have the opportunity to use the zantac bottle again. Very tough team to follow right now. Some days the baseball gods are not with you. I once read where a well known sports writer, I am very sorry I can't remember who, said you are guaranteed to win 50 and guaranteed to lose 50. What happens with the other 62 determines the season. I look at it as yesterday was one of those guaranteed to lose games and we have a lot more of the 62 chance to win coming.
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