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Sale to BOS for Moncada, Kopech, Basabe, Diaz
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 6, 2016 15:03:37 GMT -5
Reports that Sox paying entirety of Moncada's remaining deal, if true, likely helped cap the prospects package...eh He got a bonus, not a salary. Not sure what this means.
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Post by rookie13 on Dec 6, 2016 15:03:38 GMT -5
Reports that Sox paying entirety of Moncada's remaining deal, if true, likely helped cap the prospects package...eh Paying the rest of his money probably helped us keep Rodriguez, or maybe Swihart. It's not like they can't afford another 31M. That's chump change to the Red Sox.
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Post by shaqtus on Dec 6, 2016 15:03:57 GMT -5
Seriously, folks, let's take a step back. Having a deep farm is useful for two reasons: building from within, and making deals. The Sox have a strong young core in the majors (X, Betts, Benintendi, Swihart...) and none of the players dealt are going to knock them off—the only player even in the Major League picture in 2017 was Moncada, that's it. The Sox have dealt a lot of lottery tickets for proven quantities; albeit promising tickets, but gambles still.
And let's remember, didn't the starting price for Chris Sale in July start with Betts, Swihart and Benintendi? I notice none of them are in the deal now...
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Post by bigpupp on Dec 6, 2016 15:04:55 GMT -5
Reports that Sox paying entirety of Moncada's remaining deal, if true, likely helped cap the prospects package...eh He got a bonus, not a salary. Not sure what this means. Yeah, I'm a bit confused by this too.
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Post by James Dunne on Dec 6, 2016 15:05:47 GMT -5
System is arguably the worst in baseball right now. Thanks Dave. You suck. Well, they still have Devers and Groome. Plus, Benny would have been the #1 prospect in all of baseball and they still have him too. But don't let logic keep you away from the delicious hot takes. Their top three is still strong, but there is no depth at all. At five through ten they're the weakest I can remember. It's a legitimate concern.
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Post by thursty on Dec 6, 2016 15:06:18 GMT -5
Updated FG standings has Red Sox winning AL East by 11 games, not sure what it was before today.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 6, 2016 15:07:03 GMT -5
There's like nothing to trade at the trade deadline if there are any needs. I hope they restock.
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Post by Sammy on Dec 6, 2016 15:07:44 GMT -5
DD is pushing the system's chips into the middle. This is why they hired him. Escalating salaries and guaranteed contracts pretty much ensure that no MLB team can compete for the WS every single year. They can try to maximize their windows though, which seems to be the goal here.
That being said, since the Sox are apparently pushing their chips in, they still have some work to do, and I hope they do not shy away from the luxury tax. It would seem to be a conflict in philosophies if they are willing to trade cost controlled guys to maximize the window but are not willing to cough up some extra $$. They have a ton of money coming off the books in 2018/2019. It may be positioning to sell the team as some commenters have inferred.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 6, 2016 15:11:40 GMT -5
I've been thinking about the day the Red Sox had - the day they blew up their farm system.
Looking at the two trades one-by-one and you can say the Red Sox made two great deals. Thornburg is a very good relief pitcher. He cost two spare parts and one guy who might turn into him. It's a reasonable 3-1 deal where the cost shouldn't come back to kill the Red Sox.
The Chris Sale trade is a deal where the Red Sox traded two strong prospects, one toolsy prospect who has yet to develop and another guy for a certified top of the rotation starter. Again, makes great sense. The Red Sox could have had to have parted with other talent such as JBJ, Swihart, or E-Rod or Devers to make this deal happen. There's question marks about defensive position for Moncada or if he taps into his raw power and questions about whether Kopech is either a front line starting pitching prospect or a guy with iffy command who winds up a closer.
Of course you can question how much better Sale makes the rotation if Wright winds up getting booted out and you can certainly question the wisdom of having given up Espinoza for Pomeranz if he's not fit to stay in the rotation.
So the deals by themselves make sense.
It's the totality of the deals which bother me. The Kimbrel deal is kind of similar and the Espinoza/Pomeranz is the worst of this type of deal, but the deals have been consistent.
Dombrowski has been strip-mining this organization of depth and talent and at some point it's going to catch up and it's going to hurt for a sustained time. These deals are short-sighted and designed to make the Red Sox an uber-team for the rest of the decade. The farm system will stop being a feeder to the majors before long as the talent is very thin and it will show up.
This is the issue with all of these 3-1 and 4-1 deals he's been making. The other issue is if the 1 guy you get declines and/or gets injured, you're really screwed. And you're giving up talent and bulk meaning the odds are good that one of those guys you gave up winds up being better than what you obtained, and these guys that you lose represent 6 years of cheap labor and allow you to sign FA in the market - however I will say that Dombrowski has been bringing in guys thru deals that have reasonable contracts.
Still, the thinning out of the farm is an issue and if injuries hit it'll really be felt.
My hope is that Dombrowski can turn Buchholz and another starter into valuable farm system depth.
Right now the rotation is Porcello, Sale, Price, and two of E-Rod, Wright, and Pomeranz. One of those guys needs to be dealt - and I hope it's not E-Rod who still has the potential to develop into a top notch starter or Wright who was extremely valuable when he was healthy last season. I hope if it is Pomeranz, they can get back 80% of the value they lost when dealing for him, but I tend to doubt it.
But what Dombrowski turns Buchholz and his other starter will need to be computed into this trading equation. Hope he gets a legit prospect or two and perhaps a bat that can contribute as a DH. Honestly I'm surprised he didn't deal Buchholz to open up the $ for a bat like Beltran.
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Post by geostorm on Dec 6, 2016 15:14:03 GMT -5
Reports that Sox paying entirety of Moncada's remaining deal, if true, likely helped cap the prospects package...eh It's only money. The Sox have plenty of that and none of it goes against the luxury tax. Point being...if the Sox don't pick up what remains of that $31.5M paid out over three years(?) wouldn't the ask go up?...and/or another offer look better. (I don't know the payout terms on that $31.5M, other than that it is indicated as being paid out over three years, per Cot's)
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Post by thursty on Dec 6, 2016 15:15:36 GMT -5
I think a lot of how you view this trade depends on how you view the playoffs: as essentially a game of roulette where your odds don't vary much from 8:1 regardless of your team, or where one where the best 1-2 teams have substantially better than that.
The Red Sox were heavy favorites to win the AL East before today; although they're heavier favorites today, it's probably only by a few % points.
Assuming they make the playoffs, how much likelier are they to win the pennant? the World Series?
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 6, 2016 15:17:31 GMT -5
It's only money. The Sox have plenty of that and none of it goes against the luxury tax. Point being...if the Sox don't pick up what remains of that $31.5M paid out over three years(?) wouldn't the ask go up?...and/or another offer look better. Absolutely.
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Post by taftreign on Dec 6, 2016 15:17:37 GMT -5
This is going to be one awesome rotation in 2018 when they sign Otani!
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Post by voiceofreason on Dec 6, 2016 15:22:25 GMT -5
Yesterday I posted something about, Moncada, Swihart and a bag of balls for Sale. Well this is a bit more than that but not much really, unless of course Kopech becomes a true ace but that is about a 1 in 4/5 chance. I will take those odds. I believe there is a decent chance Moncada never reaches his potential, in fact maybe not even close. Since when has being built like a linebacker coorelated into being a great baseball player? Unless of course your juiced up on roids ala B Bonds. What it leads to is injuries. I am going to go out on a limb and say he doesn't have a great career, good but not great. Regardless, I like this trade. Sox are now loaded for the inevitable Cubs vs Sox World Series. Many here are grumbling about having a weak system, farm systems don't win games. They help you build a team. What BC did over the past 5/6 years is create a farm system that has allowed the Sox to build a great team. I mean a really really great team. That should be sustainable for a long run. Obviously there will be more trades as they have an abundance of starters so it will be interesting to see what comes next. Another CI/DH makes the most sense, who could that be for say Bucholtz or Pomeranz?
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 6, 2016 15:22:36 GMT -5
This trade confirms one thing that I have been thinking this entire time.
The Sox are higher on Devers than they are on Moncada.
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Post by thegoo13 on Dec 6, 2016 15:22:44 GMT -5
Remember when Theo wouldn't give in to the Twins when they were trying to trade Johan Santana? Had he that would have been a disaster. Remember when the Phillies were wanting Betts or Bogaerts and Swhihart and whoever else for Cole Hamels? Would have been a disaster.
Chris Sale is a great pitcher. He is an ace on any staff other than LAD or SFG but the thing about this is that every GM knows that DD can be taken. So they take him. It took 10 years to build this thing and it was going to last for 10 plus years at the major league level. He overpays for everything and that has cost our future depth of impact players. The kind of guys every team is trying to get but most can't. Well a lot of them are gone now.
How has he done so far? Kimbrel had about his worst year ever last year. Smith was baked before he even started (only traded Miley for him so DD gets a pass on that one). Pomeranz was just bad after he got here. The Price contract looks outstanding right now. The guy never could put a bullpen together in Detroit. I just don't see a ton of reason to have confidence in his moves. So, I KNOW he has given too much but I don't know if the guys he has brought here are really very good? DD is like a kid born into a fortune and has it all spent before he is 30 years old. Otani is kind of a must sign now just to try to make up for the massive losses.
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Post by thursty on Dec 6, 2016 15:24:40 GMT -5
This trade confirms one thing that I have been thinking this entire time. The Sox are higher on Devers than they are on Moncada. No it doesn't. Not in the least; it's much more likely that the White Sox are higher on Moncada than Devers.
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sdl
Rookie
Who the hell is Stan Papi?
Posts: 135
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Post by sdl on Dec 6, 2016 15:25:02 GMT -5
Looks like we traded both Basabe brothers away this year...
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Post by iakovos11 on Dec 6, 2016 15:25:23 GMT -5
Well, they still have Devers and Groome. Plus, Benny would have been the #1 prospect in all of baseball and they still have him too. But don't let logic keep you away from the delicious hot takes. Their top three is still strong, but there is no depth at all. At five through ten they're the weakest I can remember. It's a legitimate concern. It is, but they have such a young core, which help offset it somewhat. Unless tragedy happens, they have the OF locked up a for a few years, C, SS, 2B, SP and RP. They have Hanley for a couple more years at 1B and or DH. Devers coming along soon (assuming he's not traded). Groome. I think they should have time to replenish. It does put some pressure on the Sox to draft and sign IFA's efficiently, though. It's not ideal, but not so bad, either.
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Post by preston on Dec 6, 2016 15:26:32 GMT -5
Dave definitely depleted the farm system; both its depth and talent but they still have Beni, Mookie, Xander, Swihart, Erod, Wright, JBJ, Devers, Travis, Groome and the 2016 class, and the big three guys in the rotation who will be fully intact for at least two more years.
It's really going to be up to Dave and his guys to draft/sign well but they have a multi year window to do so.
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Post by dirtdog on Dec 6, 2016 15:27:32 GMT -5
Dont see Pomerantz getting traded. Other teams look at the medicals first.
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Post by texs31 on Dec 6, 2016 15:28:18 GMT -5
As others have said, the idea he has gutted the system ignores the youth we have at the MLB level. It's one thing if DD traded for 30 year Olds and pending FAs.
The fact is, our favorite organization has:
1. 23 Year Old MVP runner up 2. 23 Year Old All Star SS 3. 22 Year Old potential batting champ 4. 26 Year Old Gold Glove caliber CF who can hit 5. 4 SP that are 27 and younger. 6. A young/talented/cost-controlled bullpen 7. 3 catchers 27 or younger (granted, all with some ???s) 8. A top 15 prospect 9. A top 50 prospect
Not too many organizations can make that claim.
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Post by notguilty on Dec 6, 2016 15:30:00 GMT -5
I've been thinking about the day the Red Sox had - the day they blew up their farm system. [..] Snip. What Red Sox Champs said. I mean, this is great. I'm going to enjoy Sale next year. But boy, it'll not be pretty when chicken come home to roost. Just a sentence from Keith Law's write up today- "There’s a long-term price to pay for this new direction, and I suspect it will fall to someone else in four or five years to build the team back up". Hopefully we win a WS in the meantime, though I'll not be holding my breath.
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Post by voiceofreason on Dec 6, 2016 15:30:24 GMT -5
This trade confirms one thing that I have been thinking this entire time. The Sox are higher on Devers than they are on Moncada. Wouldn't that be something!! If Devers has a better career than Moncada, I like that thought. I am inclined to think it very possible.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 6, 2016 15:33:17 GMT -5
This trade confirms one thing that I have been thinking this entire time. The Sox are higher on Devers than they are on Moncada. No it doesn't. Not in the least; it's much more likely that the White Sox are higher on Moncada than Devers. Only the Sox could have included Devers too but didn't. Moncada has a ton of value, but the the fact that Devers wasn't included is very telling to me.
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