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Post by jodyreidnichols on Dec 20, 2016 12:25:55 GMT -5
Absolutely terrible!!! Just a pure dump at this point. Why not wait as many have said. Sox get nothing for a guy who could pitch well next year. I am going to predict he pitches on the level of a #3 next year. I have been a DD defender thus far, not on this one. Somebody try to convince me that Wade Miley is a better pitcher or has more value. BS Okay here it goes while Clay's upside is much higher his problem is his downside. With Wade you knew what you were getting 200IP of mediocrity and some teams would value that more depending on where they are it.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 20, 2016 12:26:14 GMT -5
It's likely the discussion around whether to pick up his option included what would happen should their situation change and they no longer needed him. And that likely led to the thought that worst case they could just dump his salary so picking up the option amounted to a free insurance policy. Remember they had no plans to add to the rotation unless Sale became available.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 20, 2016 12:27:52 GMT -5
Absolutely terrible!!! Just a pure dump at this point. Why not wait as many have said. Sox get nothing for a guy who could pitch well next year. I am going to predict he pitches on the level of a #3 next year. I have been a DD defender thus far, not on this one. Somebody try to convince me that Wade Miley is a better pitcher or has more value. BS Okay here it goes while Clay's upside is much higher his problem is his downside. With Wade you knew what you were getting 200IP of mediocrity and some teams would value that more depending on where they are it. Furthermore, he was behind Rodriguez, Pomeranz and Wright in the rotation pecking order here so he wasn't going to get the chance to pitch like a 3.
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Dec 20, 2016 12:29:40 GMT -5
I know I'm in the minority, but I will miss Clay, he has always been one of my favorites. I always liked him as well. I used to like him. I saw him pitch in AA and later that year caught his first start in Boston, to bad it was not his second. I found him the most maddening of pitchers in a long time, tons of talent but a head case.
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Post by soxcentral on Dec 20, 2016 12:31:40 GMT -5
I can see that, just seems like a poor use of resources if he had such little value.
Despite all the frustration over the years, I wish Clay good luck moving forward. He is a charitable person and did a lot of good outside the playing field.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 20, 2016 12:36:43 GMT -5
Congrats to DD for finally acquiring his first non-major league player in a trade while with the Red Sox. Dave Dombrowski picked up Luis Ysla. This was his second minor leaguer traded for.
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 20, 2016 12:37:52 GMT -5
I can see that, just seems like a poor use of resources if he had such little value. Despite all the frustration over the years, I wish Clay good luck moving forward. He is a charitable person and did a lot of good outside the playing field. Try to consider the world where the Sale trade doesn't happen. Having Clay on a one year deal would have been good. He proved he can pitch in the pen and then transition back to the rotation last year. That's valuable for swingman.
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Post by jrffam05 on Dec 20, 2016 12:42:31 GMT -5
If (and I know it’s Buchholz so a rather big if) Clay stays healthy for a half season for the Phillies, I bet they turn around and trade him for a hell of lot more than a non prospect like Tobias. I'm willing to bet the above quote happens.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 20, 2016 12:43:56 GMT -5
I'm guessing that everyone would be good with this if we were to extend Mookie with a Pedroia-like contract in the near future.
I don't see the Encanacion connection, we're not under by enough to sign him.
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Post by ancientsoxfogey on Dec 20, 2016 12:46:20 GMT -5
Meanwhile the Sox are really LH heavy in the rotation, especially considering that their two current depth options at Pawtucket are also LH. I wonder if the Sox are seriously considering giving Wright a shot at a full-time gig in 2017?
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Post by Coreno on Dec 20, 2016 12:47:16 GMT -5
I can see that, just seems like a poor use of resources if he had such little value. Despite all the frustration over the years, I wish Clay good luck moving forward. He is a charitable person and did a lot of good outside the playing field. Try to consider the world where the Sale trade doesn't happen. Having Clay on a one year deal would have been good. He proved he can pitch in the pen and then transition back to the rotation last year. That's valuable for swingman. a $13M swingman is not valuable.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 20, 2016 12:48:23 GMT -5
Picking up 13.5 million was too much for a 6th starter. That's kind of what Buchholz proved he could be last season. He's in his 30's and he's losing his "upside" by the minute.
I thought it was a poor move to pick up the option when Vance Worley is getting nontendered for 3.5 million by the Orioles and he had the better season last year.
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Post by mredsox89 on Dec 20, 2016 12:50:32 GMT -5
Clay was more valuable to Boston before the Chris Sale trade, and the Sox thought they might be able to get a half decent prospect if they traded him.
Then the Sox got Sale, Buchholz's value to them went down, it was obvious they needed to move him, at least they got rid of the whole contract. Would I have liked a better prospect in return, sure. Could they have if they waited, maybe. But if they waited, they also may not have been able to get anyone to take his whole contract, as the Sox would likely be in a "desperate" state to move a SP.
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Post by artfuldodger on Dec 20, 2016 12:54:21 GMT -5
Are the Red Sox far enough under to make a move now and still have flexibility for the season?
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Dec 20, 2016 13:08:36 GMT -5
Meanwhile the Sox are really LH heavy in the rotation, especially considering that their two current depth options at Pawtucket are also LH. I wonder if the Sox are seriously considering giving Wright a shot at a full-time gig in 2017? There is no such thing considering the quality LH that we have.
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Post by voiceofreason on Dec 20, 2016 13:15:37 GMT -5
Okay here it goes while Clay's upside is much higher his problem is his downside. With Wade you knew what you were getting 200IP of mediocrity and some teams would value that more depending on where they are it. Furthermore, he was behind Rodriguez, Pomeranz and Wright in the rotation pecking order here so he wasn't going to get the chance to pitch like a 3. I meant he would pitch like a 3 for Philly, perfect case of a guy who needed a change of scenery. As for Miley, how about 200IP of terrible rather than mediocrity. Maybe I just remember too much of the good Clay and give him too much credit. But I still think he has the ability to be very good for 150 innings. That's worth more than nothing. I relly wont be surprised if he pitches really well next year. Then again I wont be surprised if he sucks.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Dec 20, 2016 13:27:04 GMT -5
Often enough that it's worth the risk of missing out on Josh Tobias. Meh, Tobias isn't the point. Dumping salary is and that's infinitely harder to do in Spring Training. Exactly. It's like folks don't understand that the trade value is for the market today. Just because it is a near certainty that someone would need pitching help at some point, doesn't mean you can choreograph the optimal point. And to measure that unknown against this trade just fits within the DD trade narrative espoused by the leadership of this website. It is confirmation bias, at it's best.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 20, 2016 13:38:46 GMT -5
Phils DFAed Richie Shaffer, 3B. 2012 first rounder. Pick him up and DFA Brentz.
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sdl
Rookie
Who the hell is Stan Papi?
Posts: 135
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Post by sdl on Dec 20, 2016 13:40:53 GMT -5
I saw Tobias at the tail-end of the FSL season for Clearwater. Didn't really notice much. He could just be a body to be used in a future swap. Was RAJ consulted by DD? ??
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Post by ryeairfield on Dec 20, 2016 13:44:06 GMT -5
This was a necessary transaction. Clay was a necessary insurance policy until the Sox obtained Sale. He became the most obvious option to move in order to reset under the luxury tax. This is strictly a business decision and needed to be done promptly as an injury would eliminate any trade options AND we know Clay has an extensive injury history. He could get injured taking down his Christmas Tree:} And on that subject Merry Christmas to all!
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Post by borisman on Dec 20, 2016 13:56:21 GMT -5
Unless there are other plans in the works, trading Clay NOW doesn't make sense. Keep him through ST. Injuries happen and make some teams desperate, even for an underachiever (lately) like Clay.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 20, 2016 14:00:02 GMT -5
I saw Tobias at the tail-end of the FSL season for Clearwater. idn't really notice much. He could just be a body to be used in a future swap. Was RAJ consulted by DD? ?? It's highly unlikely that Amaro knew much about a college senior picked in the 10th round in his last draft with the Phillies that the Red Sox pro scouts didn't know.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 20, 2016 14:06:14 GMT -5
While Dombrowski said getting under the competitive-balance tax was not "a 100 percent driving force" in the move, it's clear it played a prominent role. Trading away Buchholz's $13.5 million salary almost completely mitigates the payroll additions the Red Sox have made this offseason in terms of the luxury tax.
Sale, Tyler Thornburg and Mitch Moreland are scheduled to count just about $14 million against the tax next season. With Buchholz off the books, Boston can reasonably expect to stay under the tax in 2017, avoiding more onerous regulations under the new collective-bargaining agreement and resetting the penalties should the Sox choose to exceed the tax again in 2018.
"For us, it's important to do that this year if we can do that, especially as we continue to project where we're going to go in the future and some of the young players that we want to sign to long-term contracts," Dombrowski said. "It's something that we were hopeful of doing." www.providencejournal.com/sports/20161220/red-sox-trade-clay-buchholz-for-minor-leaguer
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Dec 20, 2016 14:08:45 GMT -5
Unless there are other plans in the works, trading Clay NOW doesn't make sense. Keep him through ST. Injuries happen and make some teams desperate, even for an underachiever (lately) like Clay. I would disagree. It make total sense, if the objective is to get rid of excess inventory today. It's no different when you run a warehouse/business. When you have obsolete / redundant inventory and your planning the future resource requirements, you get rid of that inventory you don't need, you don't let it sit on the shelf. DD must have determined that now was the best time. We don't know why that is, but I would bet my last dollar he was shopped to any available buyer, and he deemed this the best return. I also think people are misrepresenting the value of this particular player. He is an enigma, other teams know that also. If they held onto him until the trade deadline, sure, that would yield a probable greater return, but DD obviously wasn't going to carry him on the books for that long. The notion that you can hold onto an asset to optimize it's value is disproven daily in any kind of market.
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jimoh
Veteran
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Post by jimoh on Dec 20, 2016 14:09:08 GMT -5
All of these laments that we should have kept Clay longer to get a better return ignore the fact that the big "return" is the salary relief. If you wait until Spring you might find a better deal, but you also might not find a team willing to take on his whole salary, and if we have to throw in, say $5m, that's $5M less we can spend in '17 on an acquisition, while staying under than cap enough to splurge next year if we want to, after resetting the "years over the cap" number back to zero.
More generally, will there ever be a transaction for which multiple people don't insist that "we" (meaning "I") could have done better? This becoming as predictable as the dawn.
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