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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 28, 2017 21:08:29 GMT -5
The Sox have a real need at third base, Marrero has improved the team defense but is a black hole in the lineup. I think Mike Moustakas will probably be a main target for the Sox this year. Devers may or not be ready. He is making 8.9 million (his number number is less than this now, the Sox are around 6.5 million with the payroll situation). This trade is actually do-able. Maybe the Sox send back Moreland with prospects (and promote Sam Travis) or Fernando Abad for salary relief on the other side or cash sent with Moustakas (if need be).
This kind of trade shouldn't cost too much in prospects. He's a free agent at the end of the season.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 28, 2017 23:35:46 GMT -5
The Sox have a real need at third base, Marrero has improved the team defense but is a black hole in the lineup. I think Mike Moustakas will probably be a main target for the Sox this year. Devers may or not be ready. He is making 8.9 million (his number number is less than this now, the Sox are around 6.5 million with the payroll situation). This trade is actually do-able. Maybe the Sox send back Moreland with prospects (and promote Sam Travis) or Fernando Abad for salary relief on the other side or cash sent with Moustakas (if need be). This kind of trade shouldn't cost too much in prospects. He's a free agent at the end of the season. I can't see any reason why potential free agents like Moreland or Abad would be somebody the Royals want. I'm sure they want a player they can control for six years who'll have value for them. If I'm the Royals I want Chavis, a kid with upside. I'm sure somebody would give them that kind of value if not more. If I'm KC I want Johnson and Chavis or maybe a kid with higher upside than Johnson. Maybe Lakins or somebody like that? I'd probably want Mata if I were them, but I don't think even Dombrowski would do that. The Red Sox would either be better off going after a lesser 3b talent or simply giving Devers a shot.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 29, 2017 0:01:25 GMT -5
The Sox have a real need at third base, Marrero has improved the team defense but is a black hole in the lineup. I think Mike Moustakas will probably be a main target for the Sox this year. Devers may or not be ready. He is making 8.9 million (his number number is less than this now, the Sox are around 6.5 million with the payroll situation). This trade is actually do-able. Maybe the Sox send back Moreland with prospects (and promote Sam Travis) or Fernando Abad for salary relief on the other side or cash sent with Moustakas (if need be). This kind of trade shouldn't cost too much in prospects. He's a free agent at the end of the season. I can't see any reason why potential free agents like Moreland or Abad would be somebody the Royals want. I'm sure they want a player they can control for six years who'll have value for them. If I'm the Royals I want Chavis, a kid with upside. I'm sure somebody would give them that kind of value if not more. If I'm KC I want Johnson and Chavis or maybe a kid with higher upside than Johnson. Maybe Lakins or somebody like that? I'd probably want Mata if I were them, but I don't think even Dombrowski would do that. The Red Sox would either be better off going after a lesser 3b talent or simply giving Devers a shot. Again, the adding of Moreland (or Abad) to a deal would be to help offset the salary of a deal because of the luxury tax threshold. It wouldn't add any value to the deal. The Royals should be looking at a whole bunch of options in the Sox system like Chavis, Buttrey, Lankins, Beeks and a lot of the others that are rule 5 eligible for the Sox who the Sox are looking to trade. My whole point was that it wasn't going to take a Devers or Groome to get a deal like this done. The price drops with his impending free agency.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 29, 2017 0:10:59 GMT -5
I can't see any reason why potential free agents like Moreland or Abad would be somebody the Royals want. I'm sure they want a player they can control for six years who'll have value for them. If I'm the Royals I want Chavis, a kid with upside. I'm sure somebody would give them that kind of value if not more. If I'm KC I want Johnson and Chavis or maybe a kid with higher upside than Johnson. Maybe Lakins or somebody like that? I'd probably want Mata if I were them, but I don't think even Dombrowski would do that. The Red Sox would either be better off going after a lesser 3b talent or simply giving Devers a shot. Again, the adding of Moreland (or Abad) to a deal would be to help offset the salary of a deal because of the luxury tax threshold. It wouldn't add any value to the deal. The Royals should be looking at a whole bunch of options in the Sox system like Chavis, Buttrey, Lankins, Beeks and a lot of the others that are rule 5 eligible for the Sox who the Sox are looking to trade. My whole point was that it wasn't going to take a Devers or Groome to get a deal like this done. The price drops with his impending free agency. I get what's in it for the Sox. What's in it for KC? What does Moreland do for them? Is he supposed to be a throw-in? Otherwise why do the Royals want to pay for the remainder of his salary this season? If I'm KC and I get stuck paying for another 2 to 3 million for a player who's worthless to me in Moreland - what's he going to do for a last place club? I definitely want the best of the second tier, which means Chavis, Mata, or Lakins or Ockimey, and honestly I don't see why KC would use Moustakas to get a guy who's a potential Rule 5 guy anyways? I just don't see why KC would feel compelled to take back salary in a deal. I'm sure there are others who could use Moustakas while giving them a viable prospect without forcing them to take back salary. If KC said I'll give you Moustakas, and assume Chavis keeps raking and acting like the 1st rounder he was when the Sox drafted him, would you deal Chavis straight up for Moustakas?
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 29, 2017 0:46:06 GMT -5
Again, the adding of Moreland (or Abad) to a deal would be to help offset the salary of a deal because of the luxury tax threshold. It wouldn't add any value to the deal. The Royals should be looking at a whole bunch of options in the Sox system like Chavis, Buttrey, Lankins, Beeks and a lot of the others that are rule 5 eligible for the Sox who the Sox are looking to trade. My whole point was that it wasn't going to take a Devers or Groome to get a deal like this done. The price drops with his impending free agency. I get what's in it for the Sox. What's in it for KC? What does Moreland do for them? Is he supposed to be a throw-in? Otherwise why do the Royals want to pay for the remainder of his salary this season? If I'm KC and I get stuck paying for another 2 to 3 million for a player who's worthless to me in Moreland - what's he going to do for a last place club? I definitely want the best of the second tier, which means Chavis, Mata, or Lakins or Ockimey, and honestly I don't see why KC would use Moustakas to get a guy who's a potential Rule 5 guy anyways? I just don't see why KC would feel compelled to take back salary in a deal. I'm sure there are others who could use Moustakas while giving them a viable prospect without forcing them to take back salary. If KC said I'll give you Moustakas, and assume Chavis keeps raking and acting like the 1st rounder he was when the Sox drafted him, would you deal Chavis straight up for Moustakas? Even KC wouldn't mind taking back a extra million or two get a extra prospect or whatever. Moreland would just be a throw in. Yes I would deal Chavis and even Beeks if need be. The Royals would take rule 5 elligible guys because they can protect them on their 40 man roster without losing them. They don't have to risk lose carrying some player for a whole season on their active roster (makes things a whole lot easier).
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 29, 2017 12:15:36 GMT -5
For starters we have about 10 million in cap space to add talent, not 6.5 million. So theres no need to ship out players. I like the player, he's exactly what we need. Thing is he's playing shaky D at third right now, minus 5 DRS. Is that just a small sample size fluke or has his D fallen off?
No way do I trade Chavis for him straight up, nevermind include more talent. Chavis is on his way to being a mid season top 100 prospect. A guy like Johnson would be fair value, but we need him for depth so no way. Look at our rule 5 guys, those are the type of players I trade. If they want more, move onto a guy like Plouffe. While I hate to trade Owens, he might be a guy I would part with. He could use a fresh start and a new team to try and fix him.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 29, 2017 14:16:50 GMT -5
For starters we have about 10 million in cap space to add talent, not 6.5 million. So theres no need to ship out players. I like the player, he's exactly what we need. Thing is he's playing shaky D at third right now, minus 5 DRS. Is that just a small sample size fluke or has his D fallen off? No way do I trade Chavis for him straight up, nevermind include more talent. Chavis is on his way to being a mid season top 100 prospect. A guy like Johnson would be fair value, but we need him for depth so no way. Look at our rule 5 guys, those are the type of players I trade. If they want more, move onto a guy like Plouffe. While I hate to trade Owens, he might be a guy I would part with. He could use a fresh start and a new team to try and fix him. docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zPx_cKCQ7TQjab2kPM4zIhEFSDxrTpLLIEZr2xh5E8g/htmlview#gid=1603863171It's at exactly 8 million. This was updated after the Sox added Blane Hoyer yesterday. So no we were both wrong. The Sox aren't trading their only viable starting pitching depth in Brian Johnson. He's the only guy that has at least shown something in the majors recently. Lastly Chavis wasn't viewed as much as anything before this year and he's a player without a position at the moment because he's not currently good at third base. Chavis is the exact kind of player you sell high on when he has yet to do anything in the system besides this current year.
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Post by jimed14 on May 29, 2017 14:20:00 GMT -5
They aren't trading for a 3B until they give Pablo a real shot. And by the time that shot is over, Devers will likely be as good or a better option than anyone they could trade for.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 29, 2017 14:36:49 GMT -5
For starters we have about 10 million in cap space to add talent, not 6.5 million. So theres no need to ship out players. I like the player, he's exactly what we need. Thing is he's playing shaky D at third right now, minus 5 DRS. Is that just a small sample size fluke or has his D fallen off? No way do I trade Chavis for him straight up, nevermind include more talent. Chavis is on his way to being a mid season top 100 prospect. A guy like Johnson would be fair value, but we need him for depth so no way. Look at our rule 5 guys, those are the type of players I trade. If they want more, move onto a guy like Plouffe. While I hate to trade Owens, he might be a guy I would part with. He could use a fresh start and a new team to try and fix him. docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zPx_cKCQ7TQjab2kPM4zIhEFSDxrTpLLIEZr2xh5E8g/htmlview#gid=1603863171It's at exactly 8 million. This was updated after the Sox added Blane Hoyer yesterday. So no we were both wrong. The Sox aren't trading their only viable starting pitching depth in Brian Johnson. He's the only guy that has at least shown something in the majors recently. Lastly Chavis wasn't viewed as much as anything before this year and he's a player without a position at the moment because he's not currently good at third base. Chavis is the exact kind of player you sell high on when he has yet to do anything in the system besides this current year. My firgure was before any in season moves, it wasn't wrong it just wasn't updated. Your number was dead wrong we never only had 6.5 million for in season moves, as we still have more after making moves. Chavis was a high school draft pick, hence the guys that take time to develop and had a nice season going last year until injuries derailed it. You have no idea if your selling high on Chavis. He was seen as a guy with a good bat that could develop power. This season combined with last year pre injury doesn't look like a fluke. More like a past first round pick finally reaching his potential. He is still getting healthy hence why he doesn't play the field in back to back games. We only need a stop gap type player till Devers is ready. You don't trade Chavis for a guy you have no plans on resigning. It just makes zero sense.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 29, 2017 14:41:50 GMT -5
They aren't trading for a 3B until they give Pablo a real shot. And by the time that shot is over, Devers will likely be as good or a better option than anyone they could trade for. I would hate to rush him and if Pablo doesn't cut it, you need insurance in case Devers isn't ready. That's why we should have signed a Plouffe type player after trading Shaw. With Hernandez now done for year if that report was right, we need depth.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 29, 2017 14:44:21 GMT -5
They aren't trading for a 3B until they give Pablo a real shot. And by the time that shot is over, Devers will likely be as good or a better option than anyone they could trade for. While Pablo will get his last shot in a Sox uniform arguably, it is debatable that Devers would be better than say a Mike Moustakas by the end of the year.
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Post by jimed14 on May 29, 2017 14:48:30 GMT -5
They aren't trading for a 3B until they give Pablo a real shot. And by the time that shot is over, Devers will likely be as good or a better option than anyone they could trade for. While Pablo will get his last shot in a Sox uniform arguably, it is debatable that Devers would be better than say a Mike Moustakas by the end of the year. And then when KC demands Devers for Moustakas... No thanks. Not sure why you think that KC isn't going to ask for much or that the Red Sox have no competition in trading for him.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 29, 2017 14:50:55 GMT -5
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zPx_cKCQ7TQjab2kPM4zIhEFSDxrTpLLIEZr2xh5E8g/htmlview#gid=1603863171It's at exactly 8 million. This was updated after the Sox added Blane Hoyer yesterday. So no we were both wrong. The Sox aren't trading their only viable starting pitching depth in Brian Johnson. He's the only guy that has at least shown something in the majors recently. Lastly Chavis wasn't viewed as much as anything before this year and he's a player without a position at the moment because he's not currently good at third base. Chavis is the exact kind of player you sell high on when he has yet to do anything in the system besides this current year. My firgure was before any in season moves, it wasn't wrong it just wasn't updated. Your number was dead wrong we never only had 6.5 million for in season moves, as we still have more after making moves. Chavis was a high school draft pick, hence the guys that take time to develop and had a nice season going last year until injuries derailed it. You have no idea if your selling high on Chavis. He was seen as a guy with a good bat that could develop power. This season combined with last year pre injury doesn't look like a fluke. More like a past first round pick finally reaching his potential. He is still getting healthy hence why he doesn't play the field in back to back games. We only need a stop gap type player till Devers is ready. You don't trade Chavis for a guy you have no plans on resigning. It just makes zero sense. Ohh so you were wrong about the figure but since it was at the start of the season, that makes you more right? You know how ridiculous you sound? The number was at 7 million just a couple days ago and Blane Boyer is making close to a million dollars, he probably won't be on the roster long, but still I was pretty dang close. Ohh you don't know that you're not selling high, the Sox are very much in it this year. They're not trading junk to get Moose. They have to give up something for him.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 29, 2017 14:51:56 GMT -5
While Pablo will get his last shot in a Sox uniform arguably, it is debatable that Devers would be better than say a Mike Moustakas by the end of the year. And then when KC demands Devers for Moustakas... No thanks. Not sure why you think that KC isn't going to ask for much or that the Red Sox have no competition in trading for him. You don't make the trade if they ask for Devers or Groome, otherwise you do make the trade.
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Post by jimed14 on May 29, 2017 14:53:39 GMT -5
And then when KC demands Devers for Moustakas... No thanks. Not sure why you think that KC isn't going to ask for much or that the Red Sox have no competition in trading for him. You don't make the trade if they ask for Devers or Groome, otherwise you do make the trade. There are a ton of teams that need a 3B. I bet they wait at least 2 more months until trading him to let the bidding go til the end.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 29, 2017 14:57:41 GMT -5
My firgure was before any in season moves, it wasn't wrong it just wasn't updated. Your number was dead wrong we never only had 6.5 million for in season moves, as we still have more after making moves. Chavis was a high school draft pick, hence the guys that take time to develop and had a nice season going last year until injuries derailed it. You have no idea if your selling high on Chavis. He was seen as a guy with a good bat that could develop power. This season combined with last year pre injury doesn't look like a fluke. More like a past first round pick finally reaching his potential. He is still getting healthy hence why he doesn't play the field in back to back games. We only need a stop gap type player till Devers is ready. You don't trade Chavis for a guy you have no plans on resigning. It just makes zero sense. Ohh so you were wrong about the figure but since it was at the start of the season, that makes you more right? You know how ridiculous you sound? The number was at 7 million just a couple days ago and Blane Boyer is making close to a million dollars, he probably won't be on the roster long, but still I was pretty dang close. Ohh you don't know that you're not selling high, the Sox are very much in it this year. They're not trading junk to get Moose. They have to give up something for him. Pedro so a couple days ago its at 7 million, we had Boyer and now its over 8 million??? Come on man, you make no sense. A couple days ago it was well over 8 million. Like I said before if you can't get him at a reasonable cost move on to the next guy. No need to overpay or pay a high price with Devers waiting in the wings. We need solid depth, that's it.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 29, 2017 15:06:07 GMT -5
You don't make the trade if they ask for Devers or Groome, otherwise you do make the trade. There are a ton of teams that need a 3B. I bet they wait at least 2 more months until trading him to let the bidding go til the end. The only team I can think of is maybe the Yankees and they have their best prospect developing at AAA at third base this season.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 29, 2017 15:08:49 GMT -5
Ohh so you were wrong about the figure but since it was at the start of the season, that makes you more right? You know how ridiculous you sound? The number was at 7 million just a couple days ago and Blane Boyer is making close to a million dollars, he probably won't be on the roster long, but still I was pretty dang close. Ohh you don't know that you're not selling high, the Sox are very much in it this year. They're not trading junk to get Moose. They have to give up something for him. Pedro so a couple days ago its at 7 million, we had Boyer and now its over 8 million??? Come on man, you make no sense. A couple days ago it was well over 8 million. Like I said before if you can't get him at a reasonable cost move on to the next guy. No need to overpay or pay a high price with Devers waiting in the wings. We need solid depth, that's it. forum.soxprospects.com/thread/3936/luxury-tax-issues Yes, there was a poster who even pointed it out at 7 million in a thread here. You also put your chips in when you're trying to win. Moustakas is probably a better player at third base this season than Devers.
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Post by ctfisher on May 29, 2017 15:27:57 GMT -5
There are a ton of teams that need a 3B. I bet they wait at least 2 more months until trading him to let the bidding go til the end. The only team I can think of is maybe the Yankees and they have their best prospect developing at AAA at third base this season. So they're essentially in exactly the same situation as us- maybe Torres is a little further along, but it's not like we couldn't have justified moving devers to AAA at exactly the same time they promoted Torres. If we should be thinking about making this move, then they should too, or vice versa. Also, there's always going to be a market for talented guys like moustakas- if we were able to make the kind of deal you're suggesting (say chavis, buttrey and maybe a lottery ticket plus maybe some salary for them to eat) why would another team not try to top that if the move were being made now? Teams that are way further out than us can still get back in the race, and other teams that might not have an obvious need would probably be interested. Sano is something of a butcher at 3b, why wouldn't minnesota take a flyer on moustakas and move sano to 1b or Dh? The Giants are only 8 below .500 with a good pitching staff and a 3b hitting below the mendoza line with no power. You already pointed to the Yankees. I don't know what's happened with beltre, but I could see Texas making a run and moving Gallo. Either way, the royals are going to wait it out for exactly this reason- the nearer the trade deadline, the clearer the market is, but to get him now we'd have to pay a premium for that exact reason. In theory I'd like it if we got moustakas, but I don't think that he's going to be nearly as cheap as you seem to
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Post by umassgrad2005 on May 29, 2017 15:29:37 GMT -5
Pedro so a couple days ago its at 7 million, we had Boyer and now its over 8 million??? Come on man, you make no sense. A couple days ago it was well over 8 million. Like I said before if you can't get him at a reasonable cost move on to the next guy. No need to overpay or pay a high price with Devers waiting in the wings. We need solid depth, that's it. forum.soxprospects.com/thread/3936/luxury-tax-issues Yes, there was a poster who even pointed it out at 7 million in a thread here. You also put your chips in when you're trying to win. Moustakas is probably a better player at third base this season than Devers. Come on you can't go by post made on message boards, or people would think your 6.5 million number was correct. Moustakas is currently a .3 bwar player through 44 games, mainly because of his bad D. Unless that greatly improves that's hardly the type of player you go all in for. I have to think you're mainly looking at his HRs and not the complete player. He's currently on pace to be a below average regular.
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Post by jimed14 on May 29, 2017 15:34:01 GMT -5
The only team I can think of is maybe the Yankees and they have their best prospect developing at AAA at third base this season. So they're essentially in exactly the same situation as us- maybe Torres is a little further along, but it's not like we couldn't have justified moving devers to AAA at exactly the same time they promoted Torres. If we should be thinking about making this move, then they should too, or vice versa. Also, there's always going to be a market for talented guys like moustakas- if we were able to make the kind of deal you're suggesting (say chavis, buttrey and maybe a lottery ticket plus maybe some salary for them to eat) why would another team not try to top that if the move were being made now? Teams that are way further out than us can still get back in the race, and other teams that might not have an obvious need would probably be interested. Sano is something of a butcher at 3b, why wouldn't minnesota take a flyer on moustakas and move sano to 1b or Dh? The Giants are only 8 below .500 with a good pitching staff and a 3b hitting below the mendoza line with no power. You already pointed to the Yankees. I don't know what's happened with beltre, but I could see Texas making a run and moving Gallo. Either way, the royals are going to wait it out for exactly this reason- the nearer the trade deadline, the clearer the market is, but to get him now we'd have to pay a premium for that exact reason. In theory I'd like it if we got moustakas, but I don't think that he's going to be nearly as cheap as you seem to Baltimore could move Machado to SS also, because Hardy has been awful.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 29, 2017 15:37:02 GMT -5
forum.soxprospects.com/thread/3936/luxury-tax-issues Yes, there was a poster who even pointed it out at 7 million in a thread here. You also put your chips in when you're trying to win. Moustakas is probably a better player at third base this season than Devers. Come on you can't go by post made on message boards, or people would think your 6.5 million number was correct. Moustakas is currently a .3 bwar player through 44 games, mainly because of his bad D. Unless that greatly improves that's hardly the type of player you go all in for. I have to think you're mainly looking at his HRs and not the complete player. He's currently on pace to be a below average regular. People based their opinions off the actual payroll spreadsheet that I brought up. They weren't making anything up. I thought it was at 7 million, plus the 500k to add Boyer. An average player like Moustakas is still a improvement over anything the Sox have right now.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 29, 2017 15:41:20 GMT -5
The only team I can think of is maybe the Yankees and they have their best prospect developing at AAA at third base this season. but I don't think that he's going to be nearly as cheap as you seem to This might be the case, but I know the Sox won't give up Devers or Groome for Moose. Maybe the price is still too much for most people on here beyond Devers and Groome, but I wouldn't blame them for trying to upgrade at a position of need this year.
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Post by jimed14 on May 29, 2017 15:42:17 GMT -5
Come on you can't go by post made on message boards, or people would think your 6.5 million number was correct. Moustakas is currently a .3 bwar player through 44 games, mainly because of his bad D. Unless that greatly improves that's hardly the type of player you go all in for. I have to think you're mainly looking at his HRs and not the complete player. He's currently on pace to be a below average regular. People based their opinions off the actual payroll spreadsheet that I brought up. They weren't making anything up. I thought it was at 7 million, plus the 500k to add Boyer. An average player like Moustakas is still a improvement over anything the Sox have right now. He's not getting traded right now, so maybe that won't be the case in a few months. Holt, Pablo and Devers are all possibilities before a trade is made.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 29, 2017 15:46:55 GMT -5
People based their opinions off the actual payroll spreadsheet that I brought up. They weren't making anything up. I thought it was at 7 million, plus the 500k to add Boyer. An average player like Moustakas is still a improvement over anything the Sox have right now. He's not getting traded right now, so maybe that won't be the case in a few months. Holt, Pablo and Devers are all possibilities before a trade is made. Holt is shut down for a long time. He might not even play again this season. His vertigo/concussion issues "go beyond baseball" as quoted by the Sox this year. No one said they should trade for Moustakas right now, all I said is that he's a target.
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