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Post by SALNotes on Oct 16, 2017 9:43:50 GMT -5
Clapton is a little long in the tooth, I'd lean Bonamassa
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Oct 17, 2017 21:41:02 GMT -5
Not nearly as broke down as banana boy pedroia, who is eternally injured because he bruises easier than a banana. Imagine thinking this about the dude with nearly 1500 games played at second base. Can you clarify this? Honestly what is the point your making? He's had surgery nearly every year of his career, even if many of them have been off season. People say well his numbers were down because he played hurt yadda yadda yadda. You can't have your cake and eat it too. I'll give a player a pass for a year maybe even two regarding down numbers and or games however after that the tag becomes the player is injury prone. And he clearly has been wether it's reflected in games played or performance but it has been reflected in one way shape or another for all but one of the last several many seasons. That and his size and all out play regardless of whether we are up ten or not is why I advocated moving him several years ago. That and he's not the leader he's usually refered to as. I have several incidents to support this going back to the Bobby V days snapping pics of the coach asleep as well as this past season throwing the whole team under the bus with the HBP of Machado. I know most people will never see what I saw years ago but I also know more and more people are seeing things they never did before. Nearly every player should have an experation date, and nostaglia is for fans not GM's trying to win championships. I look at things like a GM and not a fan. I'm not saying you look at it like this but you response makes me wonder and I know many fans defend Dustin simply becuase they view him as a dirt dog aka untouchable.
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1B in 2018
Oct 17, 2017 22:25:41 GMT -5
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Post by larrycook on Oct 17, 2017 22:25:41 GMT -5
I still believe that pedroia fractured the locker room over the incident in Baltimore.
Should Farrell have done more to stop the bleeding and bring everybody together? Maybe, but it seems to me that if the Sox had a veteran leader in the clubhouse, the fracture could have been resolved.
Pedroia is never going to be a leader.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 17, 2017 22:28:45 GMT -5
1b in 2018? I don't think Moreland is the answer. He's an okay player but the Red Sox need a lot more offense out of 1b.
If the Red Sox get Martinez to DH, then Hanley would move back to 1b theoretically, but that would depend on his shoulder.
If the shoulder surgery clears up his issues and he's at full strength, I wouldn't rule out that he could return to being 2016 Hanley, who was serviceable at 1b and a legit middle-of-the order presence.
You get 2016 Hanley which is a sunken cost, and Martinez, then you have kind of added 2 bats. Add a full season of Devers, maturation by Benintendi, and a semi-bounceback from Xander and Betts, and the lineup looks a lot better.
But if the Red Sox want to add a cheap 1b, then Bour via a deal depending upon who would have to accompany Sam Travis to Miami. If too expensive in talent, they can look into Morrison as a possibility, but I don't think he'll come as quite as cheaply as Moreland did this past season.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 17, 2017 22:31:33 GMT -5
I still believe that pedroia fractured the locker room over the incident in Baltimore. Should Farrell have done more to stop the bleeding and bring everybody together? Maybe, but it seems to me that if the Sox had a veteran leader in the clubhouse, the fracture could have been resolved. Pedroia is never going to be a leader. Pedroia strikes me as a grown up kid who just wants to play baseball. Leadership isn't his thing. David Ortiz was their true leader. All you have to do is watch that video of him telling his teammates what's what in the 6th inning of Game 4 of the 2013 World Series. I don't think the locker room was "fractured" though. If anything the sense I got was that it was an "Us against the media/fans" mentality, so it was united, but not in the way you'd really feel too good about.
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Post by soxjim on Oct 17, 2017 23:18:39 GMT -5
Imagine thinking this about the dude with nearly 1500 games played at second base. Can you clarify this? Honestly what is the point your making? He's had surgery nearly every year of his career, even if many of them have been off season. People say well his numbers were down because he played hurt yadda yadda yadda. You can't have your cake and eat it too. I'll give a player a pass for a year maybe even two regarding down numbers and or games however after that the tag becomes the player is injury prone. And he clearly has been wether it's reflected in games played or performance but it has been reflected in one way shape or another for all but one of the last several many seasons. That and his size and all out play regardless of whether we are up ten or not is why I advocated moving him several years ago. That and he's not the leader he's usually refered to as. I have several incidents to support this going back to the Bobby V days snapping pics of the coach asleep as well as this past season throwing the whole team under the bus with the HBP of Machado. I know most people will never see what I saw years ago but I also know more and more people are seeing things they never did before. Nearly every player should have an experation date, and nostaglia is for fans not GM's trying to win championships. I look at things like a GM and not a fan. I'm not saying you look at it like this but you response makes me wonder and I know many fans defend Dustin simply becuase they view him as a dirt dog aka untouchable. I don't agree with your tone nor do I agree with Larry's tone. Don't want to pile on to the thread about 1b and talk about Pedroia. I just think though your tone is way wrong. If you want to start another thread you can. Back to this thread-- I don't think they can make it with MM. I liked his grit but even if Sox get JDM -- they need another real good bat. While defense is extremely important so is length of a lineup. It all comes down to how much the Sox want to spend. If they are going to make a trade, I see only Bour as of right now for a trade.
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Post by soxjim on Oct 17, 2017 23:42:19 GMT -5
1b in 2018? I don't think Moreland is the answer. He's an okay player but the Red Sox need a lot more offense out of 1b. If the Red Sox get Martinez to DH, then Hanley would move back to 1b theoretically, but that would depend on his shoulder. If the shoulder surgery clears up his issues and he's at full strength, I wouldn't rule out that he could return to being 2016 Hanley, who was serviceable at 1b and a legit middle-of-the order presence. You get 2016 Hanley which is a sunken cost, and Martinez, then you have kind of added 2 bats. Add a full season of Devers, maturation by Benintendi, and a semi-bounceback from Xander and Betts, and the lineup looks a lot better. But if the Red Sox want to add a cheap 1b, then Bour via a deal depending upon who would have to accompany Sam Travis to Miami. If too expensive in talent, they can look into Morrison as a possibility, but I don't think he'll come as quite as cheaply as Moreland did this past season. What about Neil Walker? Can he play 1b? How much would he cost? I don't believe Hanley can make a season full-time. Especially if you put him in the field. So to rely on him imo is enormous risk. Too bad the pitching can't get healthy. We have 7 pitchers (I'm counting BJ in this number.) . OFC Sale is untouchable. But if only the staff could get healthy, and execute a bit (Porcello), the sox would have been or maybe at some point could be in good position to land a quality player/quality bat. If they stand pat/ can't sign JD and only make small moves such as Moreland cheap for 1 year -- up to the all-star break - and let Hanley try to be the 2016 Hanley (as a DH.) - then maybe one pitcher can be moved. I'm not opposed to that. It's unreal sort of -- nearly every player regressed - making it tough to move them-- yet they beat out the Yanks to win the division. Remarkable in an odd way.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 18, 2017 0:17:14 GMT -5
1b in 2018? I don't think Moreland is the answer. He's an okay player but the Red Sox need a lot more offense out of 1b. If the Red Sox get Martinez to DH, then Hanley would move back to 1b theoretically, but that would depend on his shoulder. If the shoulder surgery clears up his issues and he's at full strength, I wouldn't rule out that he could return to being 2016 Hanley, who was serviceable at 1b and a legit middle-of-the order presence. You get 2016 Hanley which is a sunken cost, and Martinez, then you have kind of added 2 bats. Add a full season of Devers, maturation by Benintendi, and a semi-bounceback from Xander and Betts, and the lineup looks a lot better. But if the Red Sox want to add a cheap 1b, then Bour via a deal depending upon who would have to accompany Sam Travis to Miami. If too expensive in talent, they can look into Morrison as a possibility, but I don't think he'll come as quite as cheaply as Moreland did this past season. What about Neil Walker? Can he play 1b? How much would he cost? I don't believe Hanley can make a season full-time. Especially if you put him in the field. So to rely on him imo is enormous risk. Too bad the pitching can't get healthy. We have 7 pitchers (I'm counting BJ in this number.) . OFC Sale is untouchable. But if only the staff could get healthy, and execute a bit (Porcello), the sox would have been or maybe at some point could be in good position to land a quality player/quality bat. If they stand pat/ can't sign JD and only make small moves such as Moreland cheap for 1 year -- up to the all-star break - and let Hanley try to be the 2016 Hanley (as a DH.) - then maybe one pitcher can be moved. I'm not opposed to that. It's unreal sort of -- nearly every player regressed - making it tough to move them-- yet they beat out the Yanks to win the division. Remarkable in an odd way. Do you mean Neil Walker as a backup plan to Hanley? Don't know if Walker can play 1b, but he certainly isn't the middle of the order presence the Sox need if they don't sign JD Martinez. Walker is a decent option to fill in for Hanley if Hanley needs down-time, and I do feel a bit foolish for talking about Hanley as if he were definitely a candidate for 1b when I don't know how his shoulder surgery impacts that. Hanley is injury prone and Walker or even Sam Travis for 100 - 150 ABs at 1b isn't the worst thing in the world. The advantage of Walker is that he can play other positions like 2b, and they might very well need him to play 2b a great deal of the time because we don't know when Pedroia comes back nor how effective he'll be. The question with Walker will be how much? I'm sure there's a guaranteed starting gig somewhere else for him. The more I look at this it almost really does seem like Martinez or bust (assuming Stanton isn't a very realistic option), because there's no middle of the bat that's anywhere near as intimidating on the market (and for me that includes Hosmer, who's a good player, but I'm not convinced he's the cleanup hitter they truly need - as Fenway pointed out - too many ground balls off his bat). Really, the Red Sox need to come as close as they can to replacing David Ortiz's bat. It's kind of like when the Sox lost Clemens after 96 and had a huge hole in the rotation in 98. They didn't just go out and get an ace - they got an ACE!!! Pedro Martinez was no broken down Steve Avery.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Oct 18, 2017 2:10:01 GMT -5
I still believe that pedroia fractured the locker room over the incident in Baltimore. Should Farrell have done more to stop the bleeding and bring everybody together? Maybe, but it seems to me that if the Sox had a veteran leader in the clubhouse, the fracture could have been resolved. Pedroia is never going to be a leader. Color me stunned at the vitriol in your comments on Pedey. How the fk do you know anything about his leadership skills? Inside information from someone who knows someone? You and Jody talking from high above the maddening crowd of idiot fans and posters? So glad you are taking the time to straighten us out; make sure we know the titillating, scandalous TRUTH about someone we all considered one of the most respected and admired ball players of a generation. Poor me. I am so foolish and silly to wish we had a Pedroia, injuries and all, at every position. I wonder what you guys will be saying about Mookie after a few years.
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Post by jmei on Oct 18, 2017 3:24:02 GMT -5
Let's tone it down a little and cut out the personal stuff. Thanks.
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Post by James Dunne on Oct 18, 2017 7:55:06 GMT -5
Imagine thinking this about the dude with nearly 1500 games played at second base. Can you clarify this? Honestly what is the point your making? He's had surgery nearly every year of his career, even if many of them have been off season. People say well his numbers were down because he played hurt yadda yadda yadda. You can't have your cake and eat it too. I'll give a player a pass for a year maybe even two regarding down numbers and or games however after that the tag becomes the player is injury prone. And he clearly has been wether it's reflected in games played or performance but it has been reflected in one way shape or another for all but one of the last several many seasons. That and his size and all out play regardless of whether we are up ten or not is why I advocated moving him several years ago. That and he's not the leader he's usually refered to as. I have several incidents to support this going back to the Bobby V days snapping pics of the coach asleep as well as this past season throwing the whole team under the bus with the HBP of Machado. I know most people will never see what I saw years ago but I also know more and more people are seeing things they never did before. Nearly every player should have an experation date, and nostaglia is for fans not GM's trying to win championships. I look at things like a GM and not a fan. I'm not saying you look at it like this but you response makes me wonder and I know many fans defend Dustin simply becuase they view him as a dirt dog aka untouchable. Second base is an extremely demanding position, and Pedroia is one of the top 50 all-time in games played there. There's an important difference between thinking he's breaking down and calling him soft. Every player breaks down. We expect athletes to push themselves to the limit, but when they do we mock them for getting hurt. Pedroia isn't immune from criticism. He gets overaggressive at times at the plate, and he gets thrown out on the bases an infuriating amount. I don't care the slightest about the "dirt dog" stuff. I defend him because I've been lucky to watch him have a great career. I defend him because he continues to be an above-average second baseman, and because of the below-market contract he signed, he's not paid to be significantly more than that. So yeah, criticize his faults, acknowledge he's breaking down and probably shouldn't be counted on for more than 120 games a year. But "soft?" Let's leave that crud to the talk radio meatheads who don't actually like sports.
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Post by pedroiaesque on Oct 18, 2017 10:38:27 GMT -5
Getting back to First Base for a minute...
I view Hosmer similar to JD Drew, but with more charisma. In that, I mean his numbers probably won't jump off the page, and everyone will wish he did more, but when you step back and take a look, he was absolutely worth the money. Adequate defense (there is debate about the perception vs reality of his defensive acumen), above average offense, solid leadership. He probably won't hit for as much power as most would like (avg ~20hr per yr over last 3 yrs), but he'd be a solid (above average) presence in the line-up and on the field.
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sarasoxer
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1B in 2018
Oct 18, 2017 11:11:57 GMT -5
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Post by sarasoxer on Oct 18, 2017 11:11:57 GMT -5
Can you clarify this? Honestly what is the point your making? He's had surgery nearly every year of his career, even if many of them have been off season. People say well his numbers were down because he played hurt yadda yadda yadda. You can't have your cake and eat it too. I'll give a player a pass for a year maybe even two regarding down numbers and or games however after that the tag becomes the player is injury prone. And he clearly has been wether it's reflected in games played or performance but it has been reflected in one way shape or another for all but one of the last several many seasons. That and his size and all out play regardless of whether we are up ten or not is why I advocated moving him several years ago. That and he's not the leader he's usually refered to as. I have several incidents to support this going back to the Bobby V days snapping pics of the coach asleep as well as this past season throwing the whole team under the bus with the HBP of Machado. I know most people will never see what I saw years ago but I also know more and more people are seeing things they never did before. Nearly every player should have an experation date, and nostaglia is for fans not GM's trying to win championships. I look at things like a GM and not a fan. I'm not saying you look at it like this but you response makes me wonder and I know many fans defend Dustin simply becuase they view him as a dirt dog aka untouchable. Second base is an extremely demanding position, and Pedroia is one of the top 50 all-time in games played there. There's an important difference between thinking he's breaking down and calling him soft. Every player breaks down. We expect athletes to push themselves to the limit, but when they do we mock them for getting hurt. Pedroia isn't immune from criticism. He gets overaggressive at times at the plate, and he gets thrown out on the bases an infuriating amount. I don't care the slightest about the "dirt dog" stuff. I defend him because I've been lucky to watch him have a great career. I defend him because he continues to be an above-average second baseman, and because of the below-market contract he signed, he's not paid to be significantly more than that. So yeah, criticize his faults, acknowledge he's breaking down and probably shouldn't be counted on for more than 120 games a year. But "soft?" Let's leave that crud to the talk radio meatheads who don't actually like sports. I agree with this.....but admire the dirt dog. Bad knees or not, I have never seen Pedroia go anything other than all out running to first. He gets the absolute most from his ability and fellow players admire his pluck.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 18, 2017 11:14:01 GMT -5
One thing to remember with Hosmer: He's extremely tight with Marrero (Marrero lived with the Hosmers when his family was having issues). This could be good in the sense of recruiting, but could potentially be bad if they're not going to keep Marrero around, as he's out of options.
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Oct 18, 2017 11:20:24 GMT -5
Can you clarify this? Honestly what is the point your making? He's had surgery nearly every year of his career, even if many of them have been off season. People say well his numbers were down because he played hurt yadda yadda yadda. You can't have your cake and eat it too. I'll give a player a pass for a year maybe even two regarding down numbers and or games however after that the tag becomes the player is injury prone. And he clearly has been wether it's reflected in games played or performance but it has been reflected in one way shape or another for all but one of the last several many seasons. That and his size and all out play regardless of whether we are up ten or not is why I advocated moving him several years ago. That and he's not the leader he's usually refered to as. I have several incidents to support this going back to the Bobby V days snapping pics of the coach asleep as well as this past season throwing the whole team under the bus with the HBP of Machado. I know most people will never see what I saw years ago but I also know more and more people are seeing things they never did before. Nearly every player should have an experation date, and nostaglia is for fans not GM's trying to win championships. I look at things like a GM and not a fan. I'm not saying you look at it like this but you response makes me wonder and I know many fans defend Dustin simply becuase they view him as a dirt dog aka untouchable. Second base is an extremely demanding position, and Pedroia is one of the top 50 all-time in games played there. There's an important difference between thinking he's breaking down and calling him soft. Every player breaks down. We expect athletes to push themselves to the limit, but when they do we mock them for getting hurt. Pedroia isn't immune from criticism. He gets overaggressive at times at the plate, and he gets thrown out on the bases an infuriating amount. I don't care the slightest about the "dirt dog" stuff. I defend him because I've been lucky to watch him have a great career. I defend him because he continues to be an above-average second baseman, and because of the below-market contract he signed, he's not paid to be significantly more than that. So yeah, criticize his faults, acknowledge he's breaking down and probably shouldn't be counted on for more than 120 games a year. But "soft?" Let's leave that crud to the talk radio meatheads who don't actually like sports. I don't think he's soft at all but he is too hard headed for his own good. He can't help himself. I wouldn't criticize a player for that but I would have moved him while the value was still high and praised him for his services. Maybe even retired his number. I would never hold onto a player for what he has done but for what he's being predicted to do.
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 18, 2017 21:00:21 GMT -5
Depending on Adrian Gonzalez' back, I'd look into him as an option. He should be really cheap since the Dodgers probably just want to dump him for anything if he's not just released.
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Post by Guidas on Oct 18, 2017 21:20:28 GMT -5
Depending on Adrian Gonzalez' back, I'd look into him as an option. He should be really cheap since the Dodgers probably just want to dump him for anything if he's not just released. I believe the shoulder is also an issue. But once that back goes, very tough to keep it from popping again, and when men play hurt with it, the pain, bad alignment, tend to sap strength and hamper rotational ability from the core.
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 18, 2017 21:30:05 GMT -5
Depending on Adrian Gonzalez' back, I'd look into him as an option. He should be really cheap since the Dodgers probably just want to dump him for anything if he's not just released. I believe the shoulder is also an issue. But once that back goes, very tough to keep it from popping again, and when men play hurt with it, the pain, bad alignment, tend to sap strength and hamper rotational ability from the core. That's why I said depending on the back. I don't know if it's permanently degenerative or if it was just an issue he should recover from. He's been a good hitter for many years before this last one.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Oct 19, 2017 9:33:57 GMT -5
Second base is an extremely demanding position, and Pedroia is one of the top 50 all-time in games played there. There's an important difference between thinking he's breaking down and calling him soft. Every player breaks down. We expect athletes to push themselves to the limit, but when they do we mock them for getting hurt. Pedroia isn't immune from criticism. He gets overaggressive at times at the plate, and he gets thrown out on the bases an infuriating amount. I don't care the slightest about the "dirt dog" stuff. I defend him because I've been lucky to watch him have a great career. I defend him because he continues to be an above-average second baseman, and because of the below-market contract he signed, he's not paid to be significantly more than that. So yeah, criticize his faults, acknowledge he's breaking down and probably shouldn't be counted on for more than 120 games a year. But "soft?" Let's leave that crud to the talk radio meatheads who don't actually like sports. I agree with this.....but admire the dirt dog. Bad knees or not, I have never seen Pedroia go anything other than all out running to first. He gets the absolute most from his ability and fellow players admire his pluck. I hate when players do this and I hate when it's treated like some sort of admirable trait.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Oct 19, 2017 9:35:05 GMT -5
I believe the shoulder is also an issue. But once that back goes, very tough to keep it from popping again, and when men play hurt with it, the pain, bad alignment, tend to sap strength and hamper rotational ability from the core. That's why I said depending on the back. I don't know if it's permanently degenerative or if it was just an issue he should recover from. He's been a good hitter for many years before this last one. I think every back injury is degenerative when you're in your mid to late thirties and playing a professional sport.
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Post by pedroiaesque on Oct 19, 2017 9:36:09 GMT -5
I believe the shoulder is also an issue. But once that back goes, very tough to keep it from popping again, and when men play hurt with it, the pain, bad alignment, tend to sap strength and hamper rotational ability from the core. That's why I said depending on the back. I don't know if it's permanently degenerative or if it was just an issue he should recover from. He's been a good hitter for many years before this last one. Gonzalez isn’t a good play with the uncertainty around Hanley’s health. You could end up with the two of them splitting DH and still be in the same boat regarding 1B. Lately, this is the type of acquisition that when the Yankees do it, the guy returns to prime form for at least half the season, but when the Sox do it, we get exactly what you’d expect, a player at the end of their career. We have had some success with these one-year, late career acquisitions in the past, but it’s only worth it if 1) the price is low and 2) you have a viable backup plan.
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sarasoxer
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Post by sarasoxer on Oct 19, 2017 10:07:16 GMT -5
I agree with this.....but admire the dirt dog. Bad knees or not, I have never seen Pedroia go anything other than all out running to first. He gets the absolute most from his ability and fellow players admire his pluck. I hate when players do this and I hate when it's treated like some sort of admirable trait. Hustle is not admirable? Hmmmm. There are a number of times during a season where infield errors are made and had the runner not dogged it, he would have been safe. In a given case, it could affect game outcome. I recall when someone commented to Red Auerbach that his team was not that talented ... that it just hustled. Auerbach's reply was that "hustle is a talent". Papi couldn't do it physically because of severe problems with his achilles. Pedroia, within his physical abilities, always gives best effort.
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Post by dmaineah on Oct 19, 2017 11:03:18 GMT -5
Clapton is a little long in the tooth, I'd lean Bonamassa Coco Montoya
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 19, 2017 11:31:36 GMT -5
I hate when players do this and I hate when it's treated like some sort of admirable trait. Hustle is not admirable? Hmmmm. There are a number of times during a season where infield errors are made and had the runner not dogged it, he would have been safe. In a given case, it could affect game outcome. I recall when someone commented to Red Auerbach that his team was not that talented ... that it just hustled. Auerbach's reply was that "hustle is a talent". Papi couldn't do it physically because of severe problems with his achilles. Pedroia, within his physical abilities, always gives best effort. There's a difference. He's not saying don't run. He's saying there are times when sprinting like it's going to be a close play isn't worth it. Run hard out of the box, yes. Sprinting like it's the 9th inning of game 7 on a 4-3 groundout in the third inning in April, meh. Again, not saying one shouldn't try to run hard, but there's a point of diminishing returns.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Oct 19, 2017 12:19:57 GMT -5
1st base is a priority and it all depends on the deal right? No doubt the best option is Hosmer but he probably isn't solving our power problem by himself and he needs an expensive long term deal and he will continue to age in what is becoming more and more of a young man's game. By far the biggest target for us should be Martinez for left field / DH, who I think might well go on a pretty substantial power run in Fenway at this point in his career. He has major pop. We can play Hanley at 1st some and Moreland probably is not going to cost that much more next year. That's a pretty decent platoon at 1st base and with Devers at 3rd and who knows who at 2nd, first base defense continues to be an important Redsox priority. That's why my money spent at 1st base is probably Moreland, unless I lose Martinez which of course is a very real probability.
If we lose both Martinez and Hosmer, I'm not happy at all. Trades are expensive and it's not like we have a lot of excess anywhere.
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