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Boston Red Sox GM's Past And Present
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 20:01:04 GMT -5
With so many of the present GM's taking the off season off I went back to see who some of the Sox GM's were and what deals they made.Here is a list of Sox GM'S. I started with Dick O'Connell. My reasoning was this was the birth of the Red Sox Nation. The Impossible Dream Team Dick O'Connell 1965-1977 Hayward Sullivan. '78-'84 Lou Gorman. '84- '93 Dan Duquette '94-'01 Mike Port 2002 Theo Epstein '03-05 Ben Cherrington 2006 Jed Hoyer 2006 Theo Epstein '06-'11 Ben Cherrington '12-'15 Mike Hazen 2015 Dave Dombrowski '15 - present
I'm starting with O'Connell and some of his more famous-infamous trades. It was tough choosing what ones to do On October 11,1970 Angels get Jerry Moses Ray Jarvis AND Tony Conigliaro Red Sox get Doug Griffin Jarvis Tatum Ken Tatum
On December 1,1970 White Sox get Luis C Alvarado Mike Andrews Red Sox get Luis Aparicio
On October 11 1971 Brewers get Billy Conigliaro Don Pavletich George Scott Jim Longborg Joe Lahoud Ken Brett Red Sox get Lew Krause Marty Pattin Pat Skrable Tommy Harper
In March 22 1972 yankees get Sparky Lyle RED SOX get Danny Cater Mario Guerrero
On December 7 1973 SF Giants get cash Red Sox get Jaun Marichal
On June 15 1976 Oakland A's get cash Red Sox get Joe Rudi
On June 15 1976 Oakland A's get cash Red Sox get Rollie Fingers Both of these trades were voided by Commissioner Bowie Kuhn
Within a day or two I'll do the same with Hayward Sullivan . Hope you enjoy.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 22:20:03 GMT -5
The Joe Rudi and Rollie Fingers trades were both voided by commissioner Bowie Kuhn who had also voided the trade of Vida Blue to the New York Yankees. Rudi and Fingers were sold to the Red Sox for 1m each while Blue was sold to the New York Yankees for 1.5 million by the A's owner Charlie Finley. All 3 players were actually in uniform but never played a game with the Red Sox or Yankees. Reports say that Bowie Kuhn disliked Steinbrenner and Finley so much that that's why he voided those trades.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2018 9:11:02 GMT -5
Dick O'Connell began his tenure with the Red Sox in 1949 he was named Executive Vice President and in general manager in 1965. Under his guidance from 1965 to 1977 the Red Sox were perennial winners winning at least 83 games in each season including 90 three times. The team led the American League in attendance five of those years. O'Connell has been credited for signing many great players in Red Sox history Fred Lynn Jim Rice Dwight Evans Carlton Fisk and many more. He he was also credited for the birth of the Red Sox Nation. The 1967 team which was dubbed The Impossible Dream Team more than doubled the team's attendance from a mear 8000 in '65 to more than 21,000 in'67 . O'Connell built teams that went to two World Series but suffered heartbreaking losses in 7 games.
1965 62-100 9th place '66 72-90. 9th '67 92-70 Lost to the Cardinals in WS '68 86-76 4th '69 87-75 3rd* '70 87-75 3rd '71 85-77 3rd '72 85-70 2nd '73 88-73 2nd '74 84-77 3rd '75 95-65 Lost to Reds in the WS '76 83-68 3rd * up until the 1968 series The American League and National League consisted of two 10 team divisions. In 1969 they went to 2 divisions East and West consisting of 6 teams each.
In 1976 O'Connell was fired by Jean Yawkey wife of Tom soon after he had passed. Some reports say that Mrs. Yawkey fired him just because she didn't like him.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 18, 2018 10:24:40 GMT -5
With so many of the present GM's taking the off season off I went back to see who some of the Sox GM's were and what deals they made.Here is a list of Sox GM'S. I started with Dick O'Connell. My reasoning was this was the birth of the Red Sox Nation. The Impossible Dream Team Dick O'Connell 1965-1977 Hayward Sullivan. '78-'84 Lou Gorman. '84- '93 Dan Duquette '94-'01 Mike Port 2002 Theo Epstein '03-05 Ben Cherrington 2006 Jed Hoyer 2006 Theo Epstein '06-'11 Ben Cherrington '12-'15 Mike Hazen 2015 Dave Dombrowski '15 - present I'm starting with O'Connell and some of his more famous-infamous trades. It was tough choosing what ones to do On October 11,1970 Angels get Jerry Moses Ray Jarvis AND Tony Conigliaro Red Sox get Doug Griffin Jarvis Tatum Ken Tatum On December 1,1970 White Sox get Luis C Alvarado Mike Andrews Red Sox get Luis Aparicio On October 11 1971 Brewers get Billy Conigliaro Don Pavletich George Scott Jim Longborg Joe Lahoud Ken Brett Red Sox get Lew Krause Marty Pattin Pat Skrable Tommy Harper In March 22 1972 yankees get Sparky Lyle RED SOX get Danny Cater Mario Guerrero On December 7 1973 SF Giants get cash Red Sox get Jaun Marichal On June 15 1976 Oakland A's get cash Red Sox get Joe Rudi On June 15 1976 Oakland A's get cash Red Sox get Rollie Fingers Both of these trades were voided by Commissioner Bowie Kuhn Within a day or two I'll do the same with Hayward Sullivan . Hope you enjoy. I know you couldn't put in all of his trades, but there were several left out. In 1967 he acquired Gary Bell (for Dennis Bennett?) in midseason and he added Elston Howard later in the season. He traded away Hawk Harrelson in 1969 in a multi-player deal (did they get Sonny Siebert back?) He made an impactful deal in which he sent away Reggie Smith and I think he wound up getting Rick Wise back who won 19 games for Boston while Smith blossomed into a star with St. Louis. I think that's one of two deals he made. I think there was a Bernie Carbo acquisition, too (along with Reggie Cleveland). I think John Curtis and Lynn McGlothen went back the other way. A wretched deal he made was sending young Ben Oglivie to Milwaukee for washed up Dick McAuliffe. He made a key deal in 1975 getting Denny Doyle midseason (also Jim Willoughby was a quiet good pickup as well). The cost for Doyle wound up being useful reliever Dick Drago who was sent to California after the season to complete the deal. I believe he got the useful Dick Drago for Marty Pattin? O'Connell made some really bad deals and some decent ones, but his forte was bringing young talent into the organization. The Red Sox had really good farm systems under him. Overall he was a really good GM (despite some terrible mistakes - and I question how many of them were actually his - I met him once and I think it wasn't him that wanted Lyle gone - can't remember but it might have been Mrs. Yawkey for non-baseball reasons). Without Dick O'Connell the Sox might have been bad enough to make Yawkey make good on his threat and move the Sox out of Fenway and even out of town.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2018 10:45:14 GMT -5
With so many of the present GM's taking the off season off I went back to see who some of the Sox GM's were and what deals they made.Here is a list of Sox GM'S. I started with Dick O'Connell. My reasoning was this was the birth of the Red Sox Nation. The Impossible Dream Team Dick O'Connell 1965-1977 Hayward Sullivan. '78-'84 Lou Gorman. '84- '93 Dan Duquette '94-'01 Mike Port 2002 Theo Epstein '03-05 Ben Cherrington 2006 Jed Hoyer 2006 Theo Epstein '06-'11 Ben Cherrington '12-'15 Mike Hazen 2015 Dave Dombrowski '15 - present I'm starting with O'Connell and some of his more famous-infamous trades. It was tough choosing what ones to do On October 11,1970 Angels get Jerry Moses Ray Jarvis AND Tony Conigliaro Red Sox get Doug Griffin Jarvis Tatum Ken Tatum On December 1,1970 White Sox get Luis C Alvarado Mike Andrews Red Sox get Luis Aparicio On October 11 1971 Brewers get Billy Conigliaro Don Pavletich George Scott Jim Longborg Joe Lahoud Ken Brett Red Sox get Lew Krause Marty Pattin Pat Skrable Tommy Harper In March 22 1972 yankees get Sparky Lyle RED SOX get Danny Cater Mario Guerrero On December 7 1973 SF Giants get cash Red Sox get Jaun Marichal On June 15 1976 Oakland A's get cash Red Sox get Joe Rudi On June 15 1976 Oakland A's get cash Red Sox get Rollie Fingers Both of these trades were voided by Commissioner Bowie Kuhn Within a day or two I'll do the same with Hayward Sullivan . Hope you enjoy. I know you couldn't put in all of his trades, but there were several left out. In 1967 he acquired Gary Bell (for Dennis Bennett?) in midseason and he added Elston Howard later in the season. He traded away Hawk Harrelson in 1969 in a multi-player deal (did they get Sonny Siebert back?) He made an impactful deal in which he sent away Reggie Smith and I think he wound up getting Rick Wise back who won 19 games for Boston while Smith blossomed into a star with St. Louis. I think that's one of two deals he made. I think there was a Bernie Carbo acquisition, too (along with Reggie Cleveland). I think John Curtis and Lynn McGlothen went back the other way. A wretched deal he made was sending young Ben Oglivie to Milwaukee for washed up Dick McAuliffe. He made a key deal in 1975 getting Denny Doyle midseason (also Jim Willoughby was a quiet good pickup as well). The cost for Doyle wound up being useful reliever Dick Drago who was sent to California after the season to complete the deal. I believe he got the useful Dick Drago for Marty Pattin? O'Connell made some really bad deals and some decent ones, but his forte was bringing young talent into the organization. The Red Sox had really good farm systems under him. Overall he was a really good GM (despite some terrible mistakes - and I question how many of them were actually his - I met him once and I think it wasn't him that wanted Lyle gone - can't remember but it might have been Mrs. Yawkey for non-baseball reasons). Without Dick O'Connell the Sox might have been bad enough to make Yawkey make good on his threat and move the Sox out of Fenway and even out of town. Reggie Smith was signed in 1963 by the Minnesota Twins .6 months later he was chosen by the Boston Red Sox in the first year minor league player draft. In in 1973 Reggie was traded to the St Louis Cardinals for Rick Wise and Bernie Carbo. Ken "Hawk" Harrelson was traded way to the Cleveland Indians for Sonny Siebert Vincent Romo and Joe Azcue.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 18, 2018 11:25:06 GMT -5
I know you couldn't put in all of his trades, but there were several left out. In 1967 he acquired Gary Bell (for Dennis Bennett?) in midseason and he added Elston Howard later in the season. He traded away Hawk Harrelson in 1969 in a multi-player deal (did they get Sonny Siebert back?) He made an impactful deal in which he sent away Reggie Smith and I think he wound up getting Rick Wise back who won 19 games for Boston while Smith blossomed into a star with St. Louis. I think that's one of two deals he made. I think there was a Bernie Carbo acquisition, too (along with Reggie Cleveland). I think John Curtis and Lynn McGlothen went back the other way. A wretched deal he made was sending young Ben Oglivie to Milwaukee for washed up Dick McAuliffe. He made a key deal in 1975 getting Denny Doyle midseason (also Jim Willoughby was a quiet good pickup as well). The cost for Doyle wound up being useful reliever Dick Drago who was sent to California after the season to complete the deal. I believe he got the useful Dick Drago for Marty Pattin? O'Connell made some really bad deals and some decent ones, but his forte was bringing young talent into the organization. The Red Sox had really good farm systems under him. Overall he was a really good GM (despite some terrible mistakes - and I question how many of them were actually his - I met him once and I think it wasn't him that wanted Lyle gone - can't remember but it might have been Mrs. Yawkey for non-baseball reasons). Without Dick O'Connell the Sox might have been bad enough to make Yawkey make good on his threat and move the Sox out of Fenway and even out of town. Reggie Smith was signed in 1963 by the Minnesota Twins .6 months later he was chosen by the Boston Red Sox in the first year minor league player draft. In in 1973 Reggie was traded to the St Louis Cardinals for Rick Wise and Bernie Carbo. Ken "Hawk" Harrelson was traded way to the Cleveland Indians for Sonny Siebert Vincent Romo and Joe Azcue. Ok. So then the other Cardinal deal must have gotten them Reggie Cleveland and Diego Segui.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 18, 2018 11:40:44 GMT -5
This isn't a trade of course and free agency wasn't a thing until late in O'Connell's tenure, but he made the greatest scrap heap pickup in Red Sox history - until David Ortiz came along. Luis Tiant goes down as a major credit on O'Connell's resume.
One other note about O'Connell - if Coup LeRoux had worked in 1983, if Buddy LeRoux had succeeded in forcing out Jean Yawkey and Haywood Sullivan, then Dick O'Connell would have been re-installed as GM. Instead the case went to court, Yawkey and Sullivan won, and soon afterward Sullivan was kicked upstairs and Lou Gorman was hired as GM. Sullivan was a wretched GM, but I'm sure you'll get to that.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2018 12:21:47 GMT -5
Reggie Smith was signed in 1963 by the Minnesota Twins .6 months later he was chosen by the Boston Red Sox in the first year minor league player draft. In in 1973 Reggie was traded to the St Louis Cardinals for Rick Wise and Bernie Carbo. Ken "Hawk" Harrelson was traded way to the Cleveland Indians for Sonny Siebert Vincent Romo and Joe Azcue. Ok. So then the other Cardinal deal must have gotten them Reggie Cleveland and Diego Segui. From a previous post; On October24,1973 Royals get Marty Pattin Red Sox get Dick Drago On December 7,1973 Cardinals get John Curtis Lynn McGlothan Mike Garman Red Sox get Diego Segui Reggie Cleveland Terry Hughes
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2018 17:17:49 GMT -5
Hayward Sullivan was general manager of the Red Sox from 1978 to 1984 he was also part owner of the Red Sox. Hayward Sullivan started his career with the Red Sox as a catcher he had caught four years in the Red Sox system and then three years in the Kansas City Athletics system. His playing career spanned from 1955 to 1963. A back injury cut his playing career short. He then went into managing for the Athletics AA-AAA minor league affiliates. But after the major league team got off to a rough 5-21 start the team fired then manager Mel McGaha and named Hayward Sullivan manager at the age of 34. That made him the youngest manager in MLB. That would be the only year Sullivan would manage his record for 1965 season was 54-82. In 1966 he moved back to the front office of the Boston Red Sox where he was an assistant to then general manager Dick O'Connell. Jean Yawkey who had taken over for her recently deceased husband Tom Yawkey named Hayward Sullivan general manager of the Boston Red Sox.
Career stats as a player; 312games .226ba 13hr 87rbi
In his first year as general manager of the Red Sox he made six different trades involving Bernie Carbo Andy Hassler Reggie Cleveland Jim Willoughby Ramon Aviles and Mike Easler. Sullivan didn't receive any players back in any of these six trades he only received cash for these players.
Hayward Sullivan trades '78-'84:
December 8,1977 Angels get Don Aase Red Sox get Jerry Remy
December 7, 1978 Expos get Bill Lee Red Sox Stan Papi*
*No relation to Big Papi
March 30,1977 Indians get Bo Diaz Mike Paxton Rick Wise Ted Cox Red Sox get Dennis Eckersley Fred Kendall
December 10,1980 Angels get Butch Hobson Rick Burleson Red Sox get Carney Lansford Mark Clear Rick Miller
January 23, 1981 angels get Fred Lynn Steve renko Red Sox get Frank Tanana Jim Dorsey Joe Rudi
December 6, 1983 Pirates get John Tudor Red Sox get Mike Easler
Sullivan would trade away or trade for Mike Easler three times
May 25,1984 Cubs get Mike Brumley Red Sox get Bill Buckner
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 18, 2018 18:42:33 GMT -5
I could be mistaken but I think that Lou Gorman was the guy who made the John Tudor for Mike Easler deal and I'm pretty sure it was Gorman who acquired Bill Buckner for Mike Brumley and some other guy you left out - guy by the name of Dennis Eckersley.
Now that I look closer Gorman was hired in Jan of 1984 so I guess he didn't make that bad deal for Easler. Not that Easler was bad because he wasn't - he had a strong 1984 season and he was cashed in for Baylor, but John Tudor was a really good pitcher who blossomed with the Cards in 1985 and had been a good pitcher for the Sox. We're talking a good lefty starter for a DH.
Gorman definitely acquired Buckner in May. It opened up a spot in the rotation for some kid named Roger Clemens.
I would say another deal that needs to be added is the deal that Sullivan made that sent Carney Lansford and Garry Hancock to Oakland for Tony Armas and Jeff Newman.
I would also add I think it was Sullivan who also made the terrible Fergie Jenkins for Jon Poloni deal. They dumped him just like they dumped Carbo and Lee - for nothing - because these Buffalo Heads feuded with Don Zimmer, who was a terrible manager.
I forgot to mention - that Jenkins deal was a great deal that O'Connell had made - for Juan Beniquez. Imagine a young team that almost won the Series ADDING a HOF pitcher who was still highly effective in Jenkins.
Too bad they didn't get much from him - Zimmer messed with him and should have left him alone and let him pitch.
Sullivan's legacy was that of a cheapskate who gutted the team, lost Fisk for nothing and let nepotism get in the way as his son who couldn't hit better than I could was a beneficiary of the move eventually, and let Lynn go for broken down Frank Tanana and washed up Joe Rudi.
And he got rid of Carbo who the Sox could have used in that 78 playoff game against Gossage.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2018 18:58:34 GMT -5
You're right I should have crossed checked I did with dick O'Connell so my fault. I also screwed up I only had Mike Brumley going to the Cubs for Buckner Dennis Eckersley also went to the Cubs in that Buckner trade.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2018 19:19:37 GMT -5
Hayward Sullivan had made some decent draft picks during his tenure and some pretty bad ones by missing on Frank Viola and Tony Gwynn in 1981 when he took Steve Lyons. Here are some of Sullivan's most notable draft picks.
1979- 2nd round Marc Sullivan (Hayward's son). Even Marc admitted that he felt that that was too early to be picked.
1980- Dennis Oil Can Boyd Al Nipper
1981- Steve Lyons
1982-Sam Horn Jeff Ledbetter and Mike Greenwell
1983-Rodger Clemens
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 18, 2018 20:09:42 GMT -5
Hayward Sullivan had made some decent draft picks during his tenure and some pretty bad ones by missing on Frank Viola and Tony Gwynn in 1981 when he took Steve Lyons. Here are some of Sullivan's most notable draft picks. 1979- 2nd round Marc Sullivan (Hayward's son). Even Marc admitted that he felt that that was too early to be picked. 1980- Dennis Oil Can Boyd Al Nipper 1981- Steve Lyons 1982-Sam Horn Jeff Ledbetter and Mike Greenwell 1983-Rodger Clemens Sullivan was fine as a farm director, but highly incompetent as a GM.
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dd
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Post by dd on Jan 18, 2018 21:45:45 GMT -5
With so many of the present GM's taking the off season off I went back to see who some of the Sox GM's were and what deals they made.Here is a list of Sox GM'S. I started with Dick O'Connell. My reasoning was this was the birth of the Red Sox Nation. The Impossible Dream Team Dick O'Connell 1965-1977 Hayward Sullivan. '78-'84 Lou Gorman. '84- '93 Dan Duquette '94-'01 Mike Port 2002 Theo Epstein '03-05 Ben Cherrington 2006 Jed Hoyer 2006 Theo Epstein '06-'11 Ben Cherrington '12-'15 Mike Hazen 2015 Dave Dombrowski '15 - present Haywood, right?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2018 21:48:48 GMT -5
Hayward Sullivan was was not a favorite amongst the players Carlton Fisk,Bill Lee and Ferguson Jenkins were the most boisterous in the clubhouse. Which led to Jenkins and Lee being traded for players that never contributed to the major league team. The story of Carlton Fisk and his contract expiring after the 1980 season and Sullivan being a day late to getting it to Fisk led to Carlton becoming a free agent where the Chicago White Sox gave Fisk a 5 year 3.5 million dollar contract. Sullivan's trades through the 1978 season led to the the Red Sox blowing a 14.5 game lead to the New York yankees and eventually a one game playoff with the yankees. And Sullivan allowed then manager Don Zimmer to take the blame for the collapse.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2018 22:00:39 GMT -5
With so many of the present GM's taking the off season off I went back to see who some of the Sox GM's were and what deals they made.Here is a list of Sox GM'S. I started with Dick O'Connell. My reasoning was this was the birth of the Red Sox Nation. The Impossible Dream Team Dick O'Connell 1965-1977 Hayward Sullivan. '78-'84 Lou Gorman. '84- '93 Dan Duquette '94-'01 Mike Port 2002 Theo Epstein '03-05 Ben Cherrington 2006 Jed Hoyer 2006 Theo Epstein '06-'11 Ben Cherrington '12-'15 Mike Hazen 2015 Dave Dombrowski '15 - present Haywood, right? Feckin eh right laddie. So tit tis Haywood. A fine kick in de arse. Thank you dd. I don't mind being corrected. I shouldn't have said I don't being Right?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2018 7:42:40 GMT -5
Red Sox win loss season record 1978-1984
Haywood Sullivan era
1978 99-64 2nd '79 91-69 3rd '80 83-77 4th '81. 59-49 5th Strike shortened season '82 89-73 3rd '83 78-84 6th '84 86-76 3rd
I included 1984 records show 1984 on Sullivan's record. Stories say he was fired in 83.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 19, 2018 9:16:14 GMT -5
Red Sox win loss season record 1978-1984 Haywood Sullivan era 1978 99-64 2nd '79 91-69 3rd '80 83-77 4th '81. 59-49 5th Strike shortened season '82 89-73 3rd '83 78-84 6th '84 86-76 3rd I included 1984 records show 1984 on Sullivan's record. Stories say he was fired in 83. Sullivan wasn't really fired, just kicked upstairs. I did a wiki search on Lou Gorman and it said that he was hired in Jan of 1984 so therefore 1984 belongs on Lou Gorman's record rather than Haywood Sullivan's record - if they're tracking that kind of thing. 1983 was the end of an era - with Yaz's retirement which I remember pretty well.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2018 10:13:51 GMT -5
The Yawkey/Sullivan/LeRoux war of 1983 led to Sullivan's hiring hiring dismissal and resignation that year. On June 6th of 1983 a night that was to honorTony Conigliaro who it had a stroke.On that night LaRue declared war and the form Sullivan and John Harrington that he was seizing control. LaRue announced that he was firing Sullivan and replacing him with Dick O'Connell this turned out to be a big embarrassment for the Red Sox organization. The next day Yorkie Anne Sullivan went to court to stop LaRoux .
Peter gammons rope in an issue of The Sporting News on June 20th 1983.
"The fascination and romance that the current Red Sox era grew from the'67 team and ended at 4:42 when LaRoux walked in and announced that he was in charge and had fired Sullivan".
After the '83 season Sullivan resigned as GM to become Chief Executive and Chief Operating Officer. but wasn't announced until February of '84.
This was taken from an article written by Matt Sisson for the Society for American Baseball Research.
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Post by carmenfanzone on Jan 19, 2018 11:37:11 GMT -5
I could be mistaken but I think that Lou Gorman was the guy who made the John Tudor for Mike Easler deal and I'm pretty sure it was Gorman who acquired Bill Buckner for Mike Brumley and some other guy you left out - guy by the name of Dennis Eckersley. Now that I look closer Gorman was hired in Jan of 1984 so I guess he didn't make that bad deal for Easler. Not that Easler was bad because he wasn't - he had a strong 1984 season and he was cashed in for Baylor, but John Tudor was a really good pitcher who blossomed with the Cards in 1985 and had been a good pitcher for the Sox. We're talking a good lefty starter for a DH. Gorman definitely acquired Buckner in May. It opened up a spot in the rotation for some kid named Roger Clemens. I would say another deal that needs to be added is the deal that Sullivan made that sent Carney Lansford and Garry Hancock to Oakland for Tony Armas and Jeff Newman. I would also add I think it was Sullivan who also made the terrible Fergie Jenkins for Jon Poloni deal. They dumped him just like they dumped Carbo and Lee - for nothing - because these Buffalo Heads feuded with Don Zimmer, who was a terrible manager. I forgot to mention - that Jenkins deal was a great deal that O'Connell had made - for Juan Beniquez. Imagine a young team that almost won the Series ADDING a HOF pitcher who was still highly effective in Jenkins. Too bad they didn't get much from him - Zimmer messed with him and should have left him alone and let him pitch. Sullivan's legacy was that of a cheapskate who gutted the team, lost Fisk for nothing and let nepotism get in the way as his son who couldn't hit better than I could was a beneficiary of the move eventually, and let Lynn go for broken down Frank Tanana and washed up Joe Rudi.
And he got rid of Carbo who the Sox could have used in that 78 playoff game against Gossage. This. I thought he was the worst GM since the 1967 Red Sox. His mishandling of the Fisk situation was unexcusable.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 19, 2018 12:03:30 GMT -5
Hayward Sullivan was was not a favorite amongst the players Carlton Fisk,Bill Lee and Ferguson Jenkins were the most boisterous in the clubhouse. Which led to Jenkins and Lee being traded for players that never contributed to the major league team. The story of Carlton Fisk and his contract expiring after the 1980 season and Sullivan being a day late to getting it to Fisk led to Carlton becoming a free agent where the Chicago White Sox gave Fisk a 5 year 3.5 million dollar contract. Sullivan's trades through the 1978 season led to the the Red Sox blowing a 14.5 game lead to the New York yankees and eventually a one game playoff with the yankees. And Sullivan allowed then manager Don Zimmer to take the blame for the collapse.
I'll add that Don Zimmer SHOULD definitely take blame for the collapse. Oh Sullivan is a big part of it but Zimmer and Sullivan were working together in tandem. Zimmer alienated a good portion of his ballclub and it resulted in talent like Bill Lee being given away for nothing and Fergie Jenkins being given away for nothing. Jenkins went back to being a good pitcher with Texas when he went back there in 78 just like he had been prior to leaving Texas after the 75 season. Nobody got less out of that HOF talent than Zimmer did who would jerk him around in the rotation. Zimmer didn't like Bernie Carbo, who admittedly had issues, but he made sure Sullivan got rid of him for nothing. Then Bill Lee walked out in protest, so Zimmer yanked Lee from the rotation. He did this despite the fact that he did not have another LH PH on the bench at all, let alone with Carbo's credentials, nor did he have a viable replacement for Bill Lee in the rotation. So when the Boston Massacre went down and all that was standing between the Sox and Yanks was one game, Zimmer wasted Bill Lee in relief in a blowout and gave his start to Bobby Sprowl, a kid that Pawtucket manager and future Boston manager Joe Morgan told him was a "jittery kid". So naturally when questioned Zimmer tells the press "The kid has f'n ice water in his veins." Naturally the kid was out of the game before the 1st inning was over. And of course when Gossage came in during the 7th inning to quell a Red Sox rally all the Sox had left to PH was RH Bob Bailey (who was washed up), and he was overmatched in 3 pitches by RH Goose Gossage. Too bad the Sox didn't have a LH fastball hitter on the bench. It was more than the old school/counterculture clash that Zimmer was responsible for - he allowed a caste system where regulars and subs were treated very differently. The subs couldn't even eat the food in the clubhouse until the regulars had theirs. And of course the subs rotted because Zimmer would play guys until they dropped. Butch Hobson had no business playing 3b while rearranging his elbow chips between pitches, but Zimmer refused to sit him down. Fisk was injured. Yaz was injured. Burleson was. Evans was still dizzy from being beaned. Yet Sullivan let the bench feature washed up players like Duffy and Brohamer while Zimmer refused to play these guys no matter how battered his regulars were. Between Sullivan and Zimmer they totally mismanaged the 1978 season. They could have won the Series that year if they had a better manager/GM tandem, although I will say Sullivan made a good deal for Eckersley and Torrez was seen as a big addition at the time, but 1978 is like some other past seasons, had the Red Sox not been so badly mismanaged they could have won it all.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 19, 2018 12:26:21 GMT -5
A lot of Red Sox fans have no clue about how horribly they used to be run. When people complain about John Henry, I just shake my head in disbelief. There has been no better owner of the Red Sox. And as much as I complained about Farrell, Zimmer was the worst of the worst. The Red Sox didn't win the World Series for 86 years mostly because of how bad their ownership and management was, not because of a curse.
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dd
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Post by dd on Jan 19, 2018 13:09:09 GMT -5
A lot of Red Sox fans have no clue about how horribly they used to be run. When people complain about John Henry, I just shake my head in disbelief. There has been no better owner of the Red Sox. And as much as I complained about Farrell, Zimmer was the worst of the worst. The Red Sox didn't win the World Series for 86 years mostly because of how bad their ownership and management was, not because of a curse. I remember well.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 19, 2018 13:34:48 GMT -5
A lot of Red Sox fans have no clue about how horribly they used to be run. When people complain about John Henry, I just shake my head in disbelief. There has been no better owner of the Red Sox. And as much as I complained about Farrell, Zimmer was the worst of the worst. The Red Sox didn't win the World Series for 86 years mostly because of how bad their ownership and management was, not because of a curse. John Henry isn't perfect but he is light years ahead of who has owned the Red Sox in the past. There are things I wished Henry had done differently. I wished he had interceded in the rift between Theo and Lucchino much sooner. Not wanting to rehash all that has gone down but despite some of the mistakes Theo had made, I really wish that Theo Epstein was still GM of the Red Sox. I'd feel better about their future if he was. Henry let the atmosphere get to the point where it was ripe for Theo to feel he needed to move on. As you notice Theo has autonomy in Chicago that he didn't have in Boston while Dombrowski enjoys autonomy in Boston that Theo didn't get to have. Theo had to answer to Lucchino too much and Lucchino is a brilliant marketing guy, but not the guy I'd want sticking his nose in baseball ops. I notice that Dombrowski doesn't have to get entangled with Sam Kennedy. It's a totally different dynamic, one that should have existed in the time of Theo/Larry where Theo made the baseball decisions and reported directly to Henry without Lucchino's interference. Also I didn't like Henry's silence when Terry Francona was being smeared as he was pushed out the door. Francona remains the best manager the Sox have ever had in their history in my opinion. Dick Williams was a great manager, too, for his times although I suspect it wouldn't have worked well in this day and age. That said, it's night and day difference compared to what it was. I think some people here think the Sox are automatically going to be better because of the change from Farrell to Cora. I'm not one of them. I hope Cora is better and Farrell hardly was the second coming of Earl Weaver but he was a decent manager when you compare him to the clowns who managed the Sox in the past. I don't think the change from Farrell to Cora is akin to the change from Valentine to Farrell where it was highly noticeable. I can't help but think of the pennant races/post seasons impacted by terrible managerial decisions in the past. I think of Cronin using a little used reliever in the 8th inning of Game 7 of the 1946 Series. I think of Joe McCarthy, who never won a close pennant race, blowing the 1948 (Denny Galehouse) and 1949 (PH for good hitting pitcher Ellis Kinder) pennant races. I think of Darrell Johnson pitching a LOOGY in Jim Burton during the 9th inning of Game 7 of the 1975 World Series. I think of Don Zimmer blowing the 1977 and 1978 pennant races with his abrasive unimaginative style of managing. I think of John McNamara's mind boggling managing of the 1986 World Series and his normal brain-dead style of managing. I think of Grady Little keeping Pedro in when everybody else would have pulled him out during Game 7 of 2003 ALCS. Jimed, I do disagree with your assessment of Don Zimmer as the worst of the worst, but perhaps we can call it a tie or relegate Zimmer to 2nd place because McNamara was hands down the worst manager I've seen. He had zero imagination as a manager. When Boggs batted 3rd (instead of 1st where he belonged) and was an injury scratch before the game, McNamara was too lazy to shuffle the lineup and actually let Ed Romero bat 3rd. The 1988 Red Sox are also his legacy. Morgan's Magic happened because McNamara was such a wretched manager. Everybody knew Jody Reed should get a crack at SS and he wouldn't let it happen. And his failure to use Boyd or Clemens in Game 7 of the Series was mind boggling or his lack of PHing and defensive maneuvering for Bill Buckner in Game 6... One last thing, there is a book coming out by Bill Nowlin that should be pretty interesting. He's writing about Tom Yawkey. It should be a nuanced look at a guy that nobody really, really knew. I've been waiting for there to be a book about that so I'll be reading that when it comes out next month.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 19, 2018 14:15:27 GMT -5
A lot of Red Sox fans have no clue about how horribly they used to be run. When people complain about John Henry, I just shake my head in disbelief. There has been no better owner of the Red Sox. And as much as I complained about Farrell, Zimmer was the worst of the worst. The Red Sox didn't win the World Series for 86 years mostly because of how bad their ownership and management was, not because of a curse. John Henry isn't perfect but he is light years ahead of who has owned the Red Sox in the past. There are things I wished Henry had done differently. I wished he had interceded in the rift between Theo and Lucchino much sooner. Not wanting to rehash all that has gone down but despite some of the mistakes Theo had made, I really wish that Theo Epstein was still GM of the Red Sox. I'd feel better about their future if he was. Henry let the atmosphere get to the point where it was ripe for Theo to feel he needed to move on. As you notice Theo has autonomy in Chicago that he didn't have in Boston while Dombrowski enjoys autonomy in Boston that Theo didn't get to have. Theo had to answer to Lucchino too much and Lucchino is a brilliant marketing guy, but not the guy I'd want sticking his nose in baseball ops. I notice that Dombrowski doesn't have to get entangled with Sam Kennedy. It's a totally different dynamic, one that should have existed in the time of Theo/Larry where Theo made the baseball decisions and reported directly to Henry without Lucchino's interference. That said, it's night and day difference compared to what it was. I think some people here think the Sox are automatically going to be better because of the change from Farrell to Cora. I'm not one of them. I hope Cora is better and Farrell hardly was the second coming of Earl Weaver but he was a decent manager when you compare him to the clowns who managed the Sox in the past. I don't think the change from Farrell to Cora is akin to the change from Valentine to Farrell where it was highly noticeable. I can't help but think of the pennant races/post seasons impacted by terrible managerial decisions in the past. I think of Cronin using a little used reliever in the 8th inning of Game 7 of the 1946 Series. I think of Joe McCarthy, who never won a close pennant race, blowing the 1948 (Denny Galehouse) and 1949 (PH for good hitting pitcher Ellis Kinder) pennant races. I think of Darrell Johnson pitching a LOOGY in Jim Burton during the 9th inning of Game 7 of the 1975 World Series. I think of Don Zimmer blowing the 1977 and 1978 pennant races with his abrasive unimaginative style of managing. I think of John McNamara's mind boggling managing of the 1986 World Series and his normal brain-dead style of managing. I think of Grady Little keeping Pedro in when everybody else would have pulled him out during Game 7 of 2003 ALCS. Jimed, I do disagree with your assessment of Don Zimmer as the worst of the worst, but perhaps we can call it a tie or relegate Zimmer to 2nd place because McNamara was hands down the worst manager I've seen. He had zero imagination as a manager. When Boggs batted 3rd (instead of 1st where he belonged) and was an injury scratch before the game, McNamara was too lazy to shuffle the lineup and actually let Ed Romero bat 3rd. The 1988 Red Sox are also his legacy. Morgan's Magic happened because McNamara was such a wretched manager. Everybody knew Jody Reed should get a crack at SS and he wouldn't let it happen. And his failure to use Boyd or Clemens in Game 7 of the Series was mind boggling or his lack of PHing and defensive maneuvering for Bill Buckner in Game 6... One last thing, there is a book coming out by Bill Nowlin that should be pretty interesting. He's writing about Tom Yawkey. It should be a nuanced look at a guy that nobody really, really knew. I've been waiting for there to be a book about that so I'll be reading that when it comes out next month. I can agree about McNamara, though Zimmer had a way of completely destroying seasons when they had a great team. As bad as McNamara's decisions were, blowing a 14 1/2 game lead in August is a much bigger choke than the 86 World Series IMO. I do remember being 15 watching game 6 screaming about why Stapleton wasn't in the game replacing Buckner like he did for a lot of the season. Buckner's ankle was so bad he could barely bend over to field a ground ball. We could add Valentine to that conversation, but it's hardly worth it because that team was really bad. I used to argue that the team was in an impossible situation that year because they ran out of budget and couldn't fill any of the huge holes they had and that they hired Valentine because it was a throw-away season and didn't think it was fair to put a real manager in that scenario. I never expected him to last for more than 1 season.
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