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Post by manfred on Sept 13, 2018 21:49:56 GMT -5
Clayton Kershaw: does he have any more full seasons of excellence in him? I lean no.
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Post by James Dunne on Sept 13, 2018 22:16:25 GMT -5
He went from two years of being broken to giving them 16 really good starts. It's not like Clay Buchholz is intending to enstiffen his elbow during a pennant race, and it's really arguable that the Diamondbacks are even in the picture without his contributions. The point is he isn't ever dependable, especially in the moments you need him the most Who is/was depending on him? The Diamondbacks bought a cheap Clay Buchholz lottery ticket and got the best-possible Clay Buchholz result.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 13, 2018 23:02:45 GMT -5
The point is he isn't ever dependable, especially in the moments you need him the most Who is/was depending on him? The Diamondbacks bought a cheap Clay Buchholz lottery ticket and got the best-possible Clay Buchholz result. Yeah he came at good value, but he also did another Buchholz type of thing and he's probably going to be shut down the rest of the year. The DBacks are desperate to win the NL West and Buchholz goes down, right when you need him the most. I'm just glad I'm not a DBacks fan right now because I've seen this story play out way too many times with this guy. So in short the DBacks opened up a rotation spot for Buchholz and need him. Then this predictably happens.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 13, 2018 23:10:35 GMT -5
Who is/was depending on him? The Diamondbacks bought a cheap Clay Buchholz lottery ticket and got the best-possible Clay Buchholz result. Yeah he came at good value, but he also did another Buchholz type of thing and he's probably going to be shut down the rest of the year. The DBacks are desperate to win the NL West and Buchholz goes down, right when you need him the most. I'm just glad I'm not a DBacks fan right now because I've seen this story play out way too many times with this guy. So in short the DBacks opened up a rotation spot for Buchholz and need him. Then this predictably happens. I agree with what you're saying. Yes, credit to Buchholz for resurrecting his career in Arizona, but here they are and they really need him, and yup, he's hurt again. It's the story of his career. Glad it's somebody else's problem now. At this point, I'm just thankful he was able to survive 4 innings in a diminished pitching capacity during the 2013 World Series. He was able to hang in and surrender only 1 run in 4 innings. Felix Doubront piggy-backed him, Big Papi gave his famous dugout pep talk, Gomes hit a key homer, and the Sox never trailed again. That game was the turning point in the 2013 World Series. Had Buchholz melted the Sox would have lost the game and would have trailed 3 games to 1. Thankfully that didn't happen, so I'll always appreciate that he came up as big as he could be. He was injured. It wasn't the bloody sock, but it was good enough. When the Cards didn't mash him, they blew their chance to put the Sox up against the wall in the Series and they paid the price for it.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 14, 2018 7:34:11 GMT -5
The Diamondbacks paid Buchholz almost nothing and gave up nothing to get him. Anything they got from him at all was a bonus. In this case a huge bonus.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 14, 2018 8:22:28 GMT -5
The Diamondbacks paid Buchholz almost nothing and gave up nothing to get him. Anything they got from him at all was a bonus. In this case a huge bonus. If you're looking for value, then great you won. If you're looking to win (ie dependability, showing up when it really matters), you shouldn't put Clay Buchholz in a rotation. I don't know what any team should do with Buchholz at this point. Make him into a reliever? Give him the Rodger Clemens contract where he shows up for 2 months and pitches? He's had 3 or 4 kind of full seasons as a pitcher in the big leagues since he was called up in 2008. He isn't made to be a starting pitcher in the big leagues.
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Post by fenwaydouble on Sept 14, 2018 8:34:48 GMT -5
The Diamondbacks paid Buchholz almost nothing and gave up nothing to get him. Anything they got from him at all was a bonus. In this case a huge bonus. If you're looking for value, then great you won. If you're looking to win (ie dependability, showing up when it really matters), you shouldn't put Clay Buchholz in a rotation. Every game matters, and Clay Buchholz helped Arizona stay in a tight playoff race. Was Chris Sale worthless last year because he wasn't great in the playoffs?
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 14, 2018 8:38:13 GMT -5
If you're looking for value, then great you won. If you're looking to win (ie dependability, showing up when it really matters), you shouldn't put Clay Buchholz in a rotation. Every game matters, and Clay Buchholz helped Arizona stay in a tight playoff race. Was Chris Sale worthless last year because he wasn't great in the playoffs? I personally would rather stink than to watch Clay Buchholz tease me for 3 months and then break my heart as he goes down again in the most crucial moments all over again. Chris Sale deserved a mulligan because Farrell rode him hard last year. Clay Buchholz has a long history of doing this. Edit- The Sox depended on Buchholz from 2010 until 2016 to be a big part of the rotation (not counting 2009 because he was a rookie). In that time, the Sox had 3 winning seasons out of 7. They missed the playoffs 5 times with him in the rotation. He never really made all that much money in his time here. This is why I never liked the value argument to this guy. This Sox team built a future with him in mind and this is what he helped give the Sox. A large part of it was him, because if he was more dependable, I'm sure the Sox would be winning a lot more than they did during this time. One of the Sox biggest mistakes was never selling high on Buchholz at any time and then trying to count on him, time after time after time.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 14, 2018 9:59:24 GMT -5
The Diamondbacks paid Buchholz almost nothing and gave up nothing to get him. Anything they got from him at all was a bonus. In this case a huge bonus. If you're looking for value, then great you won. If you're looking to win (ie dependability, showing up when it really matters), you shouldn't put Clay Buchholz in a rotation. I don't know what any team should do with Buchholz at this point. Make him into a reliever? Give him the Rodger Clemens contract where he shows up for 2 months and pitches? He's had 3 or 4 kind of full seasons as a pitcher in the big leagues since he was called up in 2008. He isn't made to be a starting pitcher in the big leagues. So they should have gone with a worse pitcher who was more dependable instead of winning more games to stay in the playoff race. Makes sense. Obviously, they were not planning on counting on him when they signed him to a minor league contract. It just turned out that way when he far exceeded anyone's expectations. This is the most bizarre argument you've ever made.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 14, 2018 10:02:45 GMT -5
Every game matters, and Clay Buchholz helped Arizona stay in a tight playoff race. Was Chris Sale worthless last year because he wasn't great in the playoffs? I personally would rather stink than to watch Clay Buchholz tease me for 3 months and then break my heart as he goes down again in the most crucial moments all over again. Chris Sale deserved a mulligan because Farrell rode him hard last year. Clay Buchholz has a long history of doing this. Edit- The Sox depended on Buchholz from 2010 until 2016 to be a big part of the rotation (not counting 2009 because he was a rookie). In that time, the Sox had 3 winning seasons out of 7. They missed the playoffs 5 times with him in the rotation. He never really made all that much money in his time here. This is why I never liked the value argument to this guy. This Sox team built a future with him in mind and this is what he helped give the Sox. A large part of it was him, because if he was more dependable, I'm sure the Sox would be winning a lot more than they did during this time. One of the Sox biggest mistakes was never selling high on Buchholz at any time and then trying to count on him, time after time after time. You'd rather not make the playoffs than make the playoffs with Buchholz? I think this argument is done after that.
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Post by fenwaydouble on Sept 14, 2018 10:44:03 GMT -5
Every game matters, and Clay Buchholz helped Arizona stay in a tight playoff race. Was Chris Sale worthless last year because he wasn't great in the playoffs? I personally would rather stink than to watch Clay Buchholz tease me for 3 months and then break my heart as he goes down again in the most crucial moments all over again. Chris Sale deserved a mulligan because Farrell rode him hard last year. Clay Buchholz has a long history of doing this. Edit- The Sox depended on Buchholz from 2010 until 2016 to be a big part of the rotation (not counting 2009 because he was a rookie). In that time, the Sox had 3 winning seasons out of 7. They missed the playoffs 5 times with him in the rotation. He never really made all that much money in his time here. This is why I never liked the value argument to this guy. This Sox team built a future with him in mind and this is what he helped give the Sox. A large part of it was him, because if he was more dependable, I'm sure the Sox would be winning a lot more than they did during this time. One of the Sox biggest mistakes was never selling high on Buchholz at any time and then trying to count on him, time after time after time. Rationally speaking, this is a crazy take...but I do like the image of Clay Buchholz as the romantic partner that you just can't quit, even though you know he's bad for you. I know he hurt you, but at some point, it's your fault for expecting him to change. Now, a couple years later, there's no need to be spiteful. He moved out to Arizona, and you're dating the hottest team in the league.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Sept 14, 2018 10:48:35 GMT -5
We've talked about this in the past, and a few of us have probably thought about doing it. Well Sam Miller of ESPN did it: he tracked the WAR that the Rays were able to accumulate from having drafted Delmon Young, and then traded him off to the Twins. It's a slick piece called the Delmon Young Trade Tree. While he ended up being the booby prize in the 2003 MLB draft, he blossomed into the gift that keeps on giving.
Oakland and Tampa Bay, for all of their budget constraints, really know how to use their limited assets. Those are well run organizations.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Sept 14, 2018 11:23:24 GMT -5
Clayton Kershaw: does he have any more full seasons of excellence in him? I lean no. A chronic back condition alone makes it highly unlikely that he does, and if he stays with the Dodgers, the odds drop to zero given the way they manage their pitching staff.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 14, 2018 15:54:58 GMT -5
I personally would rather stink than to watch Clay Buchholz tease me for 3 months and then break my heart as he goes down again in the most crucial moments all over again. Chris Sale deserved a mulligan because Farrell rode him hard last year. Clay Buchholz has a long history of doing this. Edit- The Sox depended on Buchholz from 2010 until 2016 to be a big part of the rotation (not counting 2009 because he was a rookie). In that time, the Sox had 3 winning seasons out of 7. They missed the playoffs 5 times with him in the rotation. He never really made all that much money in his time here. This is why I never liked the value argument to this guy. This Sox team built a future with him in mind and this is what he helped give the Sox. A large part of it was him, because if he was more dependable, I'm sure the Sox would be winning a lot more than they did during this time. One of the Sox biggest mistakes was never selling high on Buchholz at any time and then trying to count on him, time after time after time. You'd rather not make the playoffs than make the playoffs with Buchholz? I think this argument is done after that. The point is, the Sox barely ever made it to the playoffs when Buchholz was around in his time as a full time starter. 5 out of 7 years they depended on Buchholz and they didn't make it, because they made a spot for him in the rotation.
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Post by michael on Sept 14, 2018 17:06:59 GMT -5
Pedro, is that on Buck or the FO? If they were as enlightened as some, they might have "Rogered" him until September. Just askin'
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Sept 14, 2018 17:40:51 GMT -5
Pedro, is that on Buck or the FO? If they were as enlightened as some, they might have "Rogered" him until September. Just askin' Buck was NEVER the guy the Sox (or apparently you) relied on to carry them to the promised land. Nor did Buck believe himself to be that person (a Rocket or Pedro or Becket or even Lester, Price or Sale). He has always been what he is. He was an uber talented, hard working kid, a complementary piece, with results which probably averaged out somewhere 3-5, but who could sometimes pitch like an Ace, sometimes a #3, or sometimes a flop. Despite many long surges of amazing performances, he was consistently inconsistent, and often injured. That's who he was and still seems to be. Are you really shocked and offended? The Snakes knew that about him and are certainly grateful for his above average streak during which they competed well, even while he cost them pennies on the dollar. That he got hurt again should be no surprise. That he climbed back to the Majors and helped out a contending team is a matter of praise, not vitriol.
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Post by grandsalami on Sept 14, 2018 22:21:04 GMT -5
Ump show
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 15, 2018 4:01:01 GMT -5
Anyone heard about Roberto Osuna's court case and when it is supposed to happen?
I've been wondering this as the playoffs has gotten closer.
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Post by Smittyw on Sept 15, 2018 6:00:10 GMT -5
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 15, 2018 8:43:46 GMT -5
You'd rather not make the playoffs than make the playoffs with Buchholz? I think this argument is done after that. The point is, the Sox barely ever made it to the playoffs when Buchholz was around in his time as a full time starter. 5 out of 7 years they depended on Buchholz and they didn't make it, because they made a spot for him in the rotation. They won a World Series with him dominating for half the year. Horrible.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Sept 16, 2018 2:18:52 GMT -5
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Sept 16, 2018 3:14:33 GMT -5
Chipper JonesVerified account
Loved watching u play. As a fellow 3rd baseman, I admired the way u carried yourself with confidence and class. There’s a reason u wore a “C” on ur jersey. People looked up to u and knew when the chips were down, u would deliver. Here’s to a happy retirement, David Wright!
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Sept 16, 2018 7:32:00 GMT -5
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 16, 2018 8:20:00 GMT -5
Sale is top 3 in the league in every one of his pitching categories, including all three pitches he throws. A lot like Pedro.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Sept 16, 2018 13:06:42 GMT -5
This, plus all the recent BP grousing, makes letting 40S Kimbrel walk a truly short sighted proposition. Much easier and cheaper to get an excellent 8th inning guy to support this future HOF into his dotage. And build the Pen around them (the roles Smith and Thornburg were supposed to have had). Kimbrel states he and his wife like it here, and want also to stay here for their daughter's sake. Several more years of Kimbrel, plus a new 8th inning monster, plus some combination of Barnes, Brasier, Workman, Thornburg, Poyner, Wright, Eovaldi, Velasquez or Johnson, plus exciting new arms like Feltman and Lakins would seem the most effective and cost efficient way to have a top Pen for short and long term. Kinsler and Moreland rankings really shouldn't surprise me, but they did. Moreland is signed for 2019. Who will platoon with him, Pearce again at age 38, Chavis, Ockimey, Dalbec? How about Kinsler as the RHB 1B platoon with MM and backup/insurance for Pedey. Will he be too expensive? He can probably get a starting job somewhere. I know, talking 2019 is weird, but these eye of the beholder rankings are thought provoking.
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