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Post by terriblehondo on May 16, 2014 5:49:52 GMT -5
He hasn't changed mine. What exactly does a one inning reliever have to do with a starting pitching prospect? Let's say that Uehara's success is based on a deceptive motion. Uehara can only do it for an inning at a time. He wouldn't be successful as a starter and there is no evidence that whatsoever that his deception would carry over several innings. Personally I think that his motion has a lot less to do with his success than his split anyways. I don't buy that a deceptive motion is suddenly going to turn Owens into Cliff Lee and that the problem is that scouts are too dense to understand this. If he wants to be Cliff Lee he'll need Lee's cutter. Have you ever been in the box before? Without a doubt some guys you see the ball better than others. If you do not think that makes a difference you are the one who is dense.
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Post by moonstone2 on May 16, 2014 7:10:27 GMT -5
Eric there is zero evidence that Uehara's deception, would enable him to have the same success as a starter as you are implying.
I would imagine in fact that after an at bat or two major league hitters could figure out a deceptive motion.
There is no evidence that a deceptive motion will bring you from fourth starter to ace. Or even if it did, that Owens has such a pitching motion.
Hondo, your question is irrelevant. Unless you are a former major league player. A personal experience at lower levels of baseball doesn't tell us anything about the future of a major league pitcher and it certainly doesn't tell us that deception alone can turn a fourth starter into an ace.
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Post by nexus on May 16, 2014 7:53:19 GMT -5
Eric there is zero evidence that Uehara's deception, would enable him to have the same success as a starter as you are implying. I would imagine in fact that after an at bat or two major league hitters could figure out a deceptive motion. There is no evidence that a deceptive motion will bring you from fourth starter to ace. Or even if it did, that Owens has such a pitching motion.Hondo, your question is irrelevant. Unless you are a former major league player. A personal experience at lower levels of baseball doesn't tell us anything about the future of a major league pitcher and it certainly doesn't tell us that deception alone can turn a fourth starter into an ace. Now you're entering the 'did dinosaurs really exist?' zone. Nearly every reputable scout has stated Owens does a nice job hiding the ball through his throwing motion, effectively creating the illusion the ball is jumping out of his hand. I really do not understand how you could question this. And Owens does not need a cutter to be like Cliff Lee. Owens needs plus command to be like Cliff Lee.
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Post by James Dunne on May 16, 2014 7:58:28 GMT -5
As a starter, Uehara had a 89 ERA-, and a 79 FIP-. So there is certainly some evidence that he would have had success as a starter. Durability, rather than performance, seems to have been the major factor in pushing him to the bullpen. And his stuff plays up in the bullpen better than most, so it's probably the best situation for everyone.
Anyhow, the thing that worries me most about Owens is still his control. He's walking 12.2% of batters. The only major league pitchers with walk rates over 12% in 2013 (100+ IP) were Jason Marquis and Lucas Harrell. So, that's bad. Matt Moore had 11.8% walk rate, and had a pretty strong season overall (87 ERA-, 105 FIP-). But Moore also has stuff that fairly well blows Owens' away. So Owens really needs to walk less people to be successful. That's true even if fastball appears to be 96 in the box. The nice thing is that 21-year-olds in Double-A often DO improve their control, and Owens does other things well.
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Post by terriblehondo on May 16, 2014 9:26:14 GMT -5
Eric there is zero evidence that Uehara's deception, would enable him to have the same success as a starter as you are implying. I would imagine in fact that after an at bat or two major league hitters could figure out a deceptive motion. There is no evidence that a deceptive motion will bring you from fourth starter to ace. Or even if it did, that Owens has such a pitching motion. Hondo, your question is irrelevant. Unless you are a former major league player. A personal experience at lower levels of baseball doesn't tell us anything about the future of a major league pitcher and it certainly doesn't tell us that deception alone can turn a fourth starter into an ace. You do not understand the ball being hidden in the delivery. It is all about when you as a hitter pickup the ball. That allows the pitches to play up. If you have a stop start or hitch in the pitching motion if you see it enough that can be timed. If batters pick up the ball late out of a guys hand that does not change. You want to disregard something you cannot put a number on. The biggest concern with Owens to me is lack of command. He has good enough stuff to get Major League hitters out. But if his control does not improve it will not matter.
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Post by jimed14 on May 16, 2014 10:30:29 GMT -5
I actually hit a double off Mike Mussina in high school on a low 90s fastball. I couldn't even come close to hitting in the batting cage with it set at 90mph. The ball appears out of nowhere.
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Post by terriblehondo on May 16, 2014 11:13:29 GMT -5
I actually hit a double off Mike Mussina in high school on a low 90s fastball. I couldn't even come close to hitting in the batting cage with it set at 90mph. The ball appears out of nowhere. Your lucky Mike didn't throw the duece. That is why I like iron mike you have the arm to time. The machines with just the wheels your right the ball appears out of nowhere and that is just how it is on a guy who hides the ball well in his delivery. I myself do not think any of our guys is going to be a number one. But I have high hopes that somebody will figure it out.
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Post by jimed14 on May 16, 2014 11:17:49 GMT -5
I actually hit a double off Mike Mussina in high school on a low 90s fastball. I couldn't even come close to hitting in the batting cage with it set at 90mph. The ball appears out of nowhere. Your lucky Mike didn't throw the duece. That is why I like iron mike you have the arm to time. The machines with just the wheels your right the ball appears out of nowhere and that is just how it is on a guy who hides the ball well in his delivery. I myself do not think any of our guys is going to be a number one. But I have high hopes that somebody will figure it out. He threw me the curve to get me to 0-2. I ducked out of the box and it hit the outside corner. lol
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Post by terriblehondo on May 16, 2014 11:20:40 GMT -5
He had a great one. I know I wouldn't have hit it.
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Post by jmei on May 16, 2014 12:22:39 GMT -5
I generally agree with the deception/effective velocity analysis, but I think there are a few important caveats that need to be made: First, deception, like most pitcher attributes (including raw velocity), likely plays up more at the minor league level than at the major league level. The average major-league hitter picks up on a pitch and processes it faster than the average minor-league hitter, and there are a fair number of pitch-processing freaks like Manny Ramirez (or Mookie Betts???) who have the sort of elite vision and reflexes to basically negate Owens' deception advantage. Owens' deception will still mean his fastball plays up above its velocity, but the magnitude of that deception advantage will likely shrink in the majors (for instance, he won't be able to maintain his lofty strikeout rates). Second, we should be clear that we have no idea what the actual magnitude of Owens' deception is in terms of "effective velocity." Yes, his deception means his fastball plays up beyond its actual velocity, but the casual references to his fastball basically being 95-96 mph are wild guesses at best. Unless you've looked frame-by-frame through Owens' delivery and compared it to the average delivery, we have no idea how many hundredth of a seconds later it takes for a hitter to pick up his fastball and thus how fast his effective velocity is. Now, Eric freely admits that this is a guess in his first post, but it's important to reiterate that we have no idea the magnitude of the difference, just that it points in the positive direction. Finally, it's pretty glib to cast aspersions on scouts or front offices for "missing" this aspect of Owens' (or Uehara's) game. Indeed, it is only because Owens' deception is noted in every one of his scouting reports that we know that this is a thing and can incorporate it into our projections. Now, they might not weigh it as heavily as Eric does here, but maybe there's a good reason for that (lots of pitchers who succeed based on deception just seem to lose it after a few trips through the league-- I'm thinking of Hideki Okajima in particular, and a bunch of Japanese pitchers in general (Nomo, Daisuke, etc)). Then again, there's also some research that suggests that deception might be pretty sustainable (though that study is based on a pretty limited and potentially skewed sample), so who knows.
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Post by nexus on May 16, 2014 12:57:36 GMT -5
I actually hit a double off Mike Mussina in high school on a low 90s fastball.
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Post by terriblehondo on May 16, 2014 14:54:14 GMT -5
I generally agree with the deception/effective velocity analysis, but I think there are a few important caveats that need to be made: First, deception, like most pitcher attributes (including raw velocity), likely plays up more at the minor league level than at the major league level. The average major-league hitter picks up on a pitch and processes it faster than the average minor-league hitter, and there are a fair number of pitch-processing freaks like Manny Ramirez (or Mookie Betts???) who have the sort of elite vision and reflexes to basically negate Owens' deception advantage. Owens' deception will still mean his fastball plays up above its velocity, but the magnitude of that deception advantage will likely shrink in the majors (for instance, he won't be able to maintain his lofty strikeout rates). Second, we should be clear that we have no idea what the actual magnitude of Owens' deception is in terms of "effective velocity." Yes, his deception means his fastball plays up beyond its actual velocity, but the casual references to his fastball basically being 95-96 mph are wild guesses at best. Unless you've looked frame-by-frame through Owens' delivery and compared it to the average delivery, we have no idea how many hundredth of a seconds later it takes for a hitter to pick up his fastball and thus how fast his effective velocity is. Now, Eric freely admits that this is a guess in his first post, but it's important to reiterate that we have no idea the magnitude of the difference, just that it points in the positive direction. Finally, it's pretty glib to cast aspersions on scouts or front offices for "missing" this aspect of Owens' (or Uehara's) game. Indeed, it is only because Owens' deception is noted in every one of his scouting reports that we know that this is a thing and can incorporate it into our projections. Now, they might not weigh it as heavily as Eric does here, but maybe there's a good reason for that (lots of pitchers who succeed based on deception just seem to lose it after a few trips through the league-- I'm thinking of Hideki Okajima in particular, and a bunch of Japanese pitchers in general (Nomo, Daisuke, etc)). Then again, there's also some research that suggests that deception might be pretty sustainable (though that study is based on a pretty limited and potentially skewed sample), so who knows. You might be able to analyze it with a frame by frame from a camera behind home plate that I do not know. The scouts see it and note it because they sit behind home and you can tell right away if you can see the ball out of the hand right away or not. The hitters will let you know if the stuff is better than what the gun says also. Only time will tell how much if any his stuff plays up at a Major League level. If his control does not improve none of the other stuff will matter. A lot of the Japanese pitchers have pauses or stops in their deliveries. This you can time if you see it enough. A fair number of Manny Ramirez type hitters around? Maybe now that he is old and off the juice but in his prime not so much.
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Post by westcoastfan on May 16, 2014 18:21:14 GMT -5
The radar gum and mph have become the 40 yard dash at the combine. Too much emphasis. People on this site have said Owens would get bombed in High A when he was at Greenville. Then he would get bombed in AA. The reality is the kid is a stud. Thats why Theo Epstein spent 1.55 million to draft him out of high school and send him right to full season. (I know Theo Epstein isnt Jason Parks or Chris Mellen but he does know a few things about talent). Will Owens get hammered if he leaves pitches up? Well no **** sherlock...takes a genious to write that....as would every STARTING pitcher. Look, the kid has great stuff and stuff isnt found on a radar gun. The amatures wantobe scouts think so but stuff atually is more about movement, especially late movement. Many great pitchers like Maddux and Holliday have adjusted their velo down to get better stuff / movement. When Owens gets in a groove he becomes un hittable and you dont put up the numbers he does without great stuff. Players who play with him speak of his abilities. Players who face him do the same. Pedro Martinez called him 'the natural' but again, what would he know? Almost all of his walks are on 3/2 pitches which reflects the fact that guys cant hit him even when he trys to picth to contact thus the ball isnt put in play. The walks will go down at the big league level casue the batters wiill actually be able to hit some pitches. He has had games where the ball didnt get hit out of the infield yet people question his stuff. 19 2/3RD of no hit ball last season and even more no hit action this year. The kid has the 'it' factor. He will be the ace of whatever team he ends up with and hopefully for Red Sox fans it will be with them.
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Post by moonstone2 on May 16, 2014 23:42:17 GMT -5
Although Uehara did lean heavily on the arsenal he has today, he did throw a cutter and curve and was at least working on a change and a second curve. I think that had he would started to get hit a bit and would have started to lean on the rest of his pitches more had he stayed healthy. He certainly wouldn't have survived as the two pitch pitcher he is today. So no, there is no evidence that Uehara in his current form would have had success as a starter. What is this about a lack of understanding that you and Eric are talking about? Do the two of you have some sort of monopoly on baseball knowledge of which I am not aware? I assure you hondo, I understand the argument just fine and I am sure that Chris does too. I just don't agree that Ownen's deception turns his 91 MPH fastball into one that plays 95-96 and there is no evidence that it does or that it will as a starter in the majors. To be a top starter in the majors he'll need another plus weapon versus righties like a cutter. For those in this thread who say that he does not, go and look at the pitch fx cards of left handed starters in the majors. Every top lefty wihtout a great fastball that you can name, Moyer, Lee, Buerle, Wilson etc. all throw both a change and a cutter. By the way I am not the only person who thinks this, at least one scout thinks he needs another pitch to attack righties. www.csnne.com/boston-red-sox/scouts-take-sox-young-pitchers
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Post by philsbosoxfan on May 17, 2014 3:37:21 GMT -5
Although Uehara did lean heavily on the arsenal he has today, he did throw a cutter and curve and was at least working on a change and a second curve. I think that had he would started to get hit a bit and would have started to lean on the rest of his pitches more had he stayed healthy. He certainly wouldn't have survived as the two pitch pitcher he is today. So no, there is no evidence that Uehara in his current form would have had success as a starter. What is this about a lack of understanding that you and Eric are talking about? Do the two of you have some sort of monopoly on baseball knowledge of which I am not aware? I assure you hondo, I understand the argument just fine and I am sure that Chris does too. I just don't agree that Ownen's deception turns his 91 MPH fastball into one that plays 95-96 and there is no evidence that it does or that it will as a starter in the majors. To be a top starter in the majors he'll need another plus weapon versus righties like a cutter. For those in this thread who say that he does not, go and look at the pitch fx cards of left handed starters in the majors. Every top lefty wihtout a great fastball that you can name, Moyer, Lee, Buerle, Wilson etc. all throw both a change and a cutter. By the way I am not the only person who thinks this, at least one scout thinks he needs another pitch to attack righties.www.csnne.com/boston-red-sox/scouts-take-sox-young-pitchersExactly where in that scouting report does that scout say anything remotely similar to that ? ? ? That report if anything makes the case of the people your are debating with. On another note regarding Owens FB command. Yeah, it's a no-brainer but let's keep one thing in mind here, Henry Owens is 21 years old.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on May 17, 2014 4:25:27 GMT -5
I generally agree with the deception/effective velocity analysis, but I think there are a few important caveats that need to be made: First, deception, like most pitcher attributes (including raw velocity), likely plays up more at the minor league level than at the major league level. The average major-league hitter picks up on a pitch and processes it faster than the average minor-league hitter, and there are a fair number of pitch-processing freaks like Manny Ramirez (or Mookie Betts???) who have the sort of elite vision and reflexes to basically negate Owens' deception advantage. Owens' deception will still mean his fastball plays up above its velocity, but the magnitude of that deception advantage will likely shrink in the majors (for instance, he won't be able to maintain his lofty strikeout rates). Second, we should be clear that we have no idea what the actual magnitude of Owens' deception is in terms of "effective velocity." Yes, his deception means his fastball plays up beyond its actual velocity, but the casual references to his fastball basically being 95-96 mph are wild guesses at best. Unless you've looked frame-by-frame through Owens' delivery and compared it to the average delivery, we have no idea how many hundredth of a seconds later it takes for a hitter to pick up his fastball and thus how fast his effective velocity is. Now, Eric freely admits that this is a guess in his first post, but it's important to reiterate that we have no idea the magnitude of the difference, just that it points in the positive direction. Finally, it's pretty glib to cast aspersions on scouts or front offices for "missing" this aspect of Owens' (or Uehara's) game. Indeed, it is only because Owens' deception is noted in every one of his scouting reports that we know that this is a thing and can incorporate it into our projections. Now, they might not weigh it as heavily as Eric does here, but maybe there's a good reason for that (lots of pitchers who succeed based on deception just seem to lose it after a few trips through the league-- I'm thinking of Hideki Okajima in particular, and a bunch of Japanese pitchers in general (Nomo, Daisuke, etc)). Then again, there's also some research that suggests that deception might be pretty sustainable (though that study is based on a pretty limited and potentially skewed sample), so who knows. You are conflating hiding the ball and unorthodoxy here -- see my previous post where I contrasted them. So, let's redefine our terms here, because deception means different things to different people.* Let's call what Koji does and what I'm making an educated guess that Owens does occlusion (because "ball-hiding" has other meanings). Okajima had zero occlusion and immense unorthodoxy. "Deception" is the combination of occlusion and unorthodoxy. I think it's true by definition that pitchers with a lot of occlusion have at least a little bit of unorthodoxy, since by definition an orthodox delivery has no occlusion. So, in that sense, Owens' deception (occlusion plus unorthodoxy) will play up a little less well in the majors. But his motion strikes me as being only slightly unorthodox. Just watching his delivery, you can see that it looks like he keeps the ball behind his body. I completely agree that we don't know the magnitude of Owens' occlusion, which is why I'm now saying 2-6 mph as a guess. The psychology of people knowing something and talking about something, and then failing to factor it into their behavior because they don't feel it emotionally -- that's really well-established. You can know intellectually that you should rate Owens as a guy who throws 2-6 mph faster than he does, and you can know intellectually that you should pursue Uehara as a FA as if he threw 98 not 89, but when push comes to shove, when it comes to putting your scouting reputation on the line, or opening up the owner's checkbook, you just can't pull the trigger. This is ultimately the same problem, I think, as fear of flying. You can know that it's true that the odds of the plane crashing are infinitesimal, but you don't feel that it's true. In other words, our actual behavior is based on what we feel is the truth, and what we feel is the truth is just a subset of what we know is the truth. There's a second step, the turning of the knowledge of truth into a feeling of truth, that often fails us when the truth is sufficiently counter-intuitive. (It's well-established that all of our behavioral decisions are based on feelings. Even when you make what seems to be a completely rational choice, like which route to a destination to take, you make the choice by liking that option better.) moonstone, if you want to argue that you don't believe that Owens has any significant occlusion, that's fine. But what you continue to say about Uehara implies that you don't in fact understand the concept at all, even though I've explained it twice already, the second time for an imagined fifth-grade audience. So here's a set of three questions: have you noticed that hitters routinely swing through Uehara's 89 mph fastball even when he misses over the heart of the plate? If you have noticed this, do you recognize that this is something that happens routinely for pitchers who throw 98 but essentially never happens with any other pitcher who throws 89? If you recognize that fact, how do you explain the fact that Uehara does get these swings and misses? *This is precisely the problem that science has when talking about "consciousness." It's used for both the prioritized, separated, integrated level of information processing in the brain that determines our behavior, and for the completely mysterious "experience" or "subjective awareness" of all that information processing, which seems to do no extra work. (In philosophy, a "zombie" is someone who behaves exactly like us but has no inner life, who experiences no redness of red, no feelings ... the character Data in ST:TNG was sometimes portrayed as being like that. That we can conceive of zombies demonstrates that the "experience" half of consciousness seems to be superfluous to behavior.) The misunderstandings that follow from this confusion are mind-boggling, e.g. Nobel laurate: "The most striking feature of consciousness is its continuity"; famous philosopher: "This is utterly wrong." But they're talking about two different things! (If anyone cares, Gerard Edelman and Daniel Dennett, respectively.) And this has been pointed out by people, and people still remain confused, because no one has tried to change the terminology. This is the topic, in fact, of chapter 3 of the book I should be working on right now, instead of posting here! (Well, I should either be working on that, or watching a Netflix movie so I can get the original Gojira from them so my buddies and I can watch it before we go see Godzilla a week from Sunday ...)
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Post by fenwaythehardway on May 17, 2014 10:46:22 GMT -5
Here's my take on Owen's deception and the value thereof: no one really knows and we won't have a clear answer until he reaches the major leagues. Happy? No, of course not. Please continue posting elaborate rants of various levels of coherency on the matter.
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Post by mgoetze on May 18, 2014 3:54:28 GMT -5
I just love it how you Yanks like to pretend that Uehara went from being a high school kid to a 34-year old rookie in MLB with nothing in between because hey, if it didn't happen in the great US of A it might as well not have happened at all. I mean, he spent about 9 years as the staff ace of one of NPB's best teams and he was a "proven closer" long before he ever played in MLB. But yeah let's speculate about whether or not he might have made it as a starter ...
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Post by philsbosoxfan on May 18, 2014 4:50:33 GMT -5
and ?
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Post by larrycook on May 18, 2014 8:03:59 GMT -5
On another note regarding Owens FB command. Yeah, it's a no-brainer but let's keep one thing in mind here, Henry Owens is 21 years old. Excellent post! I would add that he is a 21 year old already in AA! (Two years at least under the pitching age norm) Think how much better his command could be with another 300 plus innings under his belt! The only thing about Owens that concerns me is the lack of a plus third pitch.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on May 18, 2014 11:59:10 GMT -5
To me Owens has got to have solid control and change speeds a lot to succeed as a #2 or 1. Even as a #3. As any pitcher to a large degree of course but if Owens puts that fastball up over the plate I'm not seeing a lot of movement. I'm seeing laser beams to the outfield. He's got to have excellent fastball command with the ability to keep the ball down and change speeds a lot. If he can develop along those lines I think he's an animal.
Possibly he has some occlusion but it is mainly with his change up just being good. He has an excellent change up. I'm not seeing much occlusion on his fastball or anything else. If a major league hitter guesses his fastball and it isn't located well he's going to get pounded.
Not hating the guy though. Of course he needs to learn a cutter or whatever. To me the cutter is perfect for him. He needs to change speeds and keep guys off balance and the key to his future is probably his apparent ability to do just that. He already may have an aptitude for that with his changeup being so solid. He may well have a feel for changing speeds on pitches in a deceptive way. And that particular skill is what I think they might have seen in Ball as well. Just raw athletic ability they thought they could mold into a tall pitcher who could both control his fastball in a downward plane and learn to change speeds enough to keep guys off balance.
They are trying to find the next Cliff Lee. And to develop him. And I think they are pretty much on target if that is what they are doing because I don't see another path for either Ball or Owens. They are going to depend on changing speeds and locating the ball at the bottom of the strike zone mainly. At least that is my two cents. For what it's worth.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on May 18, 2014 12:29:51 GMT -5
A guy with a pretty deceptive delivery who had a decent career with the Mets was Sid Fernandez. He only threw about 90 and looked like he was throwing uphill. Ball seemed to get on you much quicker than it should have. In 10 years with the Mets he was 98-78 with a 3.14 ERA. I'm in the camp that just keep pitching Owens until they figure him out. If he harnesses his control, they may not figure him out. Keep him.
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Post by moonstone2 on May 21, 2014 22:42:39 GMT -5
Although Uehara did lean heavily on the arsenal he has today, he did throw a cutter and curve and was at least working on a change and a second curve. I think that had he would started to get hit a bit and would have started to lean on the rest of his pitches more had he stayed healthy. He certainly wouldn't have survived as the two pitch pitcher he is today. So no, there is no evidence that Uehara in his current form would have had success as a starter. What is this about a lack of understanding that you and Eric are talking about? Do the two of you have some sort of monopoly on baseball knowledge of which I am not aware? I assure you hondo, I understand the argument just fine and I am sure that Chris does too. I just don't agree that Ownen's deception turns his 91 MPH fastball into one that plays 95-96 and there is no evidence that it does or that it will as a starter in the majors. To be a top starter in the majors he'll need another plus weapon versus righties like a cutter. For those in this thread who say that he does not, go and look at the pitch fx cards of left handed starters in the majors. Every top lefty wihtout a great fastball that you can name, Moyer, Lee, Buerle, Wilson etc. all throw both a change and a cutter. By the way I am not the only person who thinks this, at least one scout thinks he needs another pitch to attack righties.www.csnne.com/boston-red-sox/scouts-take-sox-young-pitchersExactly where in that scouting report does that scout say anything remotely similar to that ? ? ? That report if anything makes the case of the people your are debating with. On another note regarding Owens FB command. Yeah, it's a no-brainer but let's keep one thing in mind here, Henry Owens is 21 tears old. An earlier version of the article did have that reference and the older version is still in the google cache. If you google "Henry Owens cutter" the quote regarding the cutter is in the 9th entry. Both the scout in the article and Al Skropa in BPs Monday morning ten pack mention Owen's deception. Yet both label him as a 3 or a 4. The deception turns him from a reliever into a solid starter. Not from a solid starter into an ace. That's the argument.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on May 23, 2014 13:36:54 GMT -5
A guy with a pretty deceptive delivery who had a decent career with the Mets was Sid Fernandez. He only threw about 90 and looked like he was throwing uphill. Ball seemed to get on you much quicker than it should have. In 10 years with the Mets he was 98-78 with a 3.14 ERA. I'm in the camp that just keep pitching Owens until they figure him out. If he harnesses his control, they may not figure him out. Keep him. Great comp. Fernandez was only 6'1" and had much lower arm slot, but he kept the ball behind his body as Owens seems to. From his SABR bio:
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Post by moonstone2 on May 23, 2014 17:55:42 GMT -5
You can't comp to someone who played 25 years ago. It was a different game then.
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