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Post by jimed14 on Jul 18, 2014 7:41:22 GMT -5
I'm not quite sure how the command is lagging behind when he's not getting hit hard. If this is the case, he needs to be promoted yesterday so his mistakes get punished more often.
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Post by okin15 on Jul 18, 2014 7:46:02 GMT -5
This might clear up the "improved one or the other" conversation a little. Someone recently told me to think of a pitcher having/not having command rather than improving it. Control is measured in degrees, from 50 Cent* on one end to good mlb pitcher on the other. But we say he has command, like we say someone has command of the english language. They either do or they don't. Of course, then once you have it, there are also degrees of command, but it's basically the idea of "is the guy commanding the location within the strike zone, or just putting it in the strike zone?"
*http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2014/05/28/Watch-A-Glimpse-Into-the-Lead-Up-to-Rapper-50-Cent-Errant-First-Pitch
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 18, 2014 7:49:55 GMT -5
In its simplest terms, control is not walking batters and command is not throwing pitches in the middle of the plate.
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Post by jmei on Jul 18, 2014 7:52:34 GMT -5
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Post by sarasoxer on Jul 18, 2014 7:56:53 GMT -5
Eh. When you talk about a pitcher in the moment, the distinction between command and control is useful, critical even. But when a pitcher is basically in the process of cutting his walks/9 in half, do you really want to say he is only making strides in his control? Isn't it also reasonable to say he is making strides in improving his command? Because the way I see it, you cannot have command without control. Like I said, semantics. The bigger picture is that Owens has improved his ability to locate his fastball, period. FWIW, this link: www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=20590 talks about Owens "developing command," not "developing control." This link, by the way, gives Owens the upside of a #2 starter, and it is from 2013. There had been some discussion in the Owens thread about how nobody (legit) had ever given Owens an upside better than a #3. Well, the difference is that we have reports (namely, Ian Cundall on the latest SP podcast) that while Owens has improved his control, his command continues to lag behind. He reportedly still struggles to hit his catcher's mitt and misses high with his fastball. You're right that an improvement in control usually also means an improvement in command, but according to Ian, his command has improved much less than his walk rate has, and he still has to make considerable continued improvements in his command to reach his ceiling. Again: noone is saying he hasn't improved his command, but the improvements have been more limited than just looking at his walk rate might suggest, and he has a lot left to improve on. If Owens is still at Portland in early August, I hope to see him again. Last year I watched 2-3 games when he pitched from a third base vantage point. It was easy to see that he was high a lot...really all over the place with the fastball. His stats were outstanding of course. I saw him again in May also from along third base. To me there was a stark difference in this one game from last year in that he appeared considerably less wild high. There was no easy way to tell whether he was missing his spots certainly. But, with that caveat, the overall impression was that he had improved his control and perhaps by extension, his command.
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Post by okin15 on Jul 18, 2014 8:33:45 GMT -5
with that caveat, the overall impression was that he had improved his control and perhaps by extension, his command. If you read any of the three posts above yours, it would be pretty clear that you don't improve the latter by extrapolating from an improvement of the former.
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Post by cologneredsox on Jul 18, 2014 11:37:58 GMT -5
with that caveat, the overall impression was that he had improved his control and perhaps by extension, his command. If you read any of the three posts above yours, it would be pretty clear that you don't improve the latter by extrapolating from an improvement of the former. It seems very likely that there is a connection between both. It was pointed out before. Gesendet von meinem iPhone mit Tapatalk
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Post by sarasoxer on Jul 18, 2014 16:48:36 GMT -5
If you read any of the three posts above yours, it would be pretty clear that you don't improve the latter by extrapolating from an improvement of the former. It seems very likely that there is a connection between both. It was pointed out before. Gesendet von meinem iPhone mit Tapatalk Oh I agree with you cologneredsox I think that there is definitely a connection. Also I think Okin missed that I said perhaps by extension his command had improved. I don't think someone with terrible control is going to have much command. On the other hand, one with good control, as in he can place the ball within the strike zone consistently, is more likely to have better command. Is it absolute? No. What is? From my vantage point at a total of 3-4 games watching Owens, one can readily tell high or low much better than one plate side or the other. It is very hard to consistently see whether the catcher has to move his glove a lot... which would be an indicator of command deficiencies....For the one game I saw this year (so far) there was improvement in the high/low control aspect over last year.... a lot. So, for me his control looked better (in that one game). Was his command better?....I thought quite possibly as I believe that there is a link. From reports Owens seems to have increased velocity a bit. His very slow, looping 68 mph curve says "hit me" to the man in the stands. Maybe he was working on other stuff but in May he threw FBs and Changeups....with just a very few loopers mixed in. I think that he will need that third pitch as much as improved command.
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Post by grandsalami on Jul 19, 2014 21:49:36 GMT -5
Mike Antonellis ?@seadogsradio 32m
Henry Owens becomes the first pitcher in professional baseball w/13 wins. 1st pitcher in franchise history to win 9 straight starts.
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Post by mredsox89 on Jul 19, 2014 23:25:11 GMT -5
Chaz Fiorino Chaz Fiorino #RedSox @portlandseadogs H.Owens has walked 2 or fewer in 9 straight starts dating back to May 24th. Control has improved. Given that his walk rate was at or near the top of his few problems, it's a very welcome sign
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Post by larrycook on Jul 20, 2014 0:30:33 GMT -5
Anything on ESPN is for hype purposes only. I truly don't believe anything that organization puts out. I'm not down on Henry O. Just ESPN. Amen my brother. Regardless of the sport I completely ignore espn. Yellow journalism at it 's worst. They are to journalism what the wwe is to sports. Espn is soooooooo bad, I actually would rather listen to what Harold Reynolds has to say than flip over to espn.
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Post by lonborgski on Jul 20, 2014 19:12:24 GMT -5
Just saw Henry in the grocery store; it's a crying shame he's still in Portland.
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Post by larrycook on Jul 20, 2014 22:22:48 GMT -5
Just saw Henry in the grocery store; it's a crying shame he's still in Portland. Surely the sox can creatively open a bullpen spot for workman so Owens can get to Pawtucket by August 1.
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Post by okin15 on Jul 21, 2014 9:40:02 GMT -5
I think they may want him to show some development on that third pitch before he's promoted. Maybe that's why he threw so many curves the other day?
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Jul 21, 2014 9:51:03 GMT -5
Today is Henry's birthday. Happy 22 big fella. He's had 24 starts in AA. 16-4 2.15 era IP 142 1/3 h 96 r 37 er 34 bb 56 K 163. It's not a stat. And as far as I know, not a way to quanity it. But, he's only given up 3 un-earned runs. Shows me someone who bears down with men on base even if there's been a mistake behind. Doesn't just lose it and give up a bunch of un-earned runs.
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Post by cologneredsox on Jul 21, 2014 10:03:59 GMT -5
Happy birthday from Germany Henry. Rooting for you. The unearned-run stat just another nice detail about the promise of this nice piching prospect!
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jul 21, 2014 10:37:35 GMT -5
I think they may want him to show some development on that third pitch before he's promoted. Maybe that's why he threw so many curves the other day? We've said it a number of times: He's still in Portland because there's no room in Pawtucket. The second someone gets traded, be it from the majors or Pawtucket, he'll be up. Don't worry.
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Post by okin15 on Jul 21, 2014 13:29:38 GMT -5
I think they may want him to show some development on that third pitch before he's promoted. Maybe that's why he threw so many curves the other day? We've said it a number of times: He's still in Portland because there's no room in Pawtucket. The second someone gets traded, be it from the majors or Pawtucket, he'll be up. Don't worry. I guess I didn't realize that was for sure the answer. It's hard to tell when you're speaking for the team, or the site, or yourself sometimes. That sounds snarky and like I'm joking, but it's not. I really didn't realize that was something you knew.
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 21, 2014 13:36:22 GMT -5
I think they may want him to show some development on that third pitch before he's promoted. Maybe that's why he threw so many curves the other day? We've said it a number of times: He's still in Portland because there's no room in Pawtucket. The second someone gets traded, be it from the majors or Pawtucket, he'll be up. Don't worry. Seems to be a logjam.
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Post by Guidas on Jul 22, 2014 13:33:31 GMT -5
Ben Badler ?@benbadler 4m Henry Owens, Daniel Norris, Blake Swihart, Dalton Pompey. Evaluating four Top 50 prospects in one night, with video: bit.ly/1qXzWkTcan someone summarize? Owens: his plus changeup and deception make his fastball play up, gets late swings even on high-80s velo. He'll throw his changeup in any count, throwing it for strikes or doubling up on it (but he needs to keep it down). The curveball comes and goes-- it's league-average when it plays up, but in its slower range, hitters can read its spin and either let it go or crush it. His control has improved, and if he continues to improve his command and his curveball, he could be a #2 or #3 starter. Swihart: athletic, good footwork and hands, 1.91 pop time, two-way threat with above-average potential. Still a very significant "if." Implication also - or at least one could infer from that language - that if he doesn't improve command (command improvement for many guys is not easy and it often is what separates a guy from being a starter from a reliever) and the curveball he is less than a #3. Also this excerpt provide a little more reality to his skill set: Owens’ changeup is arguably his only plus pitch, but he uses it so effectively that it helps makes his two-seam fastball seem harder...The curveball has always been a pitch that comes and goes for Owens, but on Saturday it was effective. At 72-74 mph, Owens’ curveball is at the slower end of the scale, which gives hitters more time to react and read the pitch out of his hand. If he’s not precise with his location or he gets around the ball, it’s liable to be a below-average pitch that could get crushed. Yet Owens shows feel to manipulate spin on his curveball with big, rainbow break, so it can be an average pitch when it’s on.So in short, he has 1 plus pitch, everything else is average or less, his command wavers and if his curve is off, which happens more than occasionally, it can get crushed. So, yeah, why I think this guy will never be more than a #3 and realistically expect him to be a 5. I do hope he fixes everything and exceeds expectations but I just won't believe it until I see it at the MLB level.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jul 22, 2014 13:36:40 GMT -5
Owens: his plus changeup and deception make his fastball play up, gets late swings even on high-80s velo. He'll throw his changeup in any count, throwing it for strikes or doubling up on it (but he needs to keep it down). The curveball comes and goes-- it's league-average when it plays up, but in its slower range, hitters can read its spin and either let it go or crush it. His control has improved, and if he continues to improve his command and his curveball, he could be a #2 or #3 starter. Swihart: athletic, good footwork and hands, 1.91 pop time, two-way threat with above-average potential. Still a very significant "if." Implication also - or at least one could infer from that language - that if he doesn't improve command (command improvement for many guys is not easy and it often is what separates a guy from being a starter from a reliever) and the curveball he is less than a #3. Aren't there ifs with pretty much every prospect ? That's why they are still in the minors. Henry turned 22 today, happy b'day.
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Post by Guidas on Jul 22, 2014 13:47:34 GMT -5
Still a very significant "if." Implication also - or at least one could infer from that language - that if he doesn't improve command (command improvement for many guys is not easy and it often is what separates a guy from being a starter from a reliever) and the curveball he is less than a #3. Aren't there ifs with pretty much every prospect ? That's why they are still in the minors. Henry turned 22 today, happy b'day. Sure are, but with the guys who really do project to be elite or near elite there tend to be fewer. So many here keep expressing their belief that Owens will be a near ace or better. For that to happen would require a few very big "ifs" to evolve significantly. Let me put it this way, at the same level, Swihart has much fewer "ifs" with regards to becoming elite, and they become more minimal each month. Owens becoming elite requires big "ifs" - improving command being most difficult - and they will stick with him until he can offer a sustained period of dispelling them.
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 22, 2014 13:49:35 GMT -5
Aren't there ifs with pretty much every prospect ? That's why they are still in the minors. Henry turned 22 today, happy b'day. Sure are, but with the guys who really do project to be elite or near elite there tend to be fewer. So many here keep expressing their belief that Owens will be a near ace or better. For that to happen would require a few very big "ifs" to evolve significantly. Let me put it this way, at the same level, Swihart has much fewer "ifs" with regards to becoming elite, and they become more minimal each month. Owens becoming elite requires big "ifs" - improving command being most difficult - and they will stick with him until he can offer a sustained period of dispelling them. The main argument is whether his ceiling is a 2 or a 3, and then there's you.
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Post by Guidas on Jul 22, 2014 14:22:33 GMT -5
OK, I think I've made my thoughts known.
Anyone want to talk about how Johnson is a pen arm long term?
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Post by cologneredsox on Jul 22, 2014 16:12:49 GMT -5
Owens: his plus changeup and deception make his fastball play up, gets late swings even on high-80s velo. He'll throw his changeup in any count, throwing it for strikes or doubling up on it (but he needs to keep it down). The curveball comes and goes-- it's league-average when it plays up, but in its slower range, hitters can read its spin and either let it go or crush it. His control has improved, and if he continues to improve his command and his curveball, he could be a #2 or #3 starter. Swihart: athletic, good footwork and hands, 1.91 pop time, two-way threat with above-average potential. Still a very significant "if." Implication also - or at least one could infer from that language - that if he doesn't improve command (command improvement for many guys is not easy and it often is what separates a guy from being a starter from a reliever) and the curveball he is less than a #3. Also this excerpt provide a little more reality to his skill set: Owens’ changeup is arguably his only plus pitch, but he uses it so effectively that it helps makes his two-seam fastball seem harder...The curveball has always been a pitch that comes and goes for Owens, but on Saturday it was effective. At 72-74 mph, Owens’ curveball is at the slower end of the scale, which gives hitters more time to react and read the pitch out of his hand. If he’s not precise with his location or he gets around the ball, it’s liable to be a below-average pitch that could get crushed. Yet Owens shows feel to manipulate spin on his curveball with big, rainbow break, so it can be an average pitch when it’s on.So in short, he has 1 plus pitch, everything else is average or less, his command wavers and if his curve is off, which happens more than occasionally, it can get crushed. So, yeah, why I think this guy will never be more than a #3 and realistically expect him to be a 5. I do hope he fixes everything and exceeds expectations but I just won't believe it until I see it at the MLB level. I'd be very surprised if #5 pitchers could put up the stats in double a Owens provides right now, given his age I'd imagine your projection is very low, even comparable to the scouting reports. Gesendet von meinem iPhone mit Tapatalk
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