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Red Sox acquire RHP Nate Eovaldi from TB for Jalen Beeks
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 25, 2018 20:35:18 GMT -5
This is one of the most skull imploding posts I've read. The Rays are going to trade their best pitcher for a back end starter/reliever? It's amazing. You really do seem to think that all minor league prospects are superstars waiting to happen. I guess you wouldn't have traded prospect Nate Eovaldi for in his prime Pedro if that had been a possibility. Jalen Beeks can be a useful player but he's hardly the HOFer you make him out to be. I never said he was a HOFer. I really think that in general teams make the prices too high for rentals. So it likely wouldn't happen, but that's the cost they really should be. Not really. The Orioles didn't owe the Dodgers Manny Machado. They simply could have let him finish out the season in Baltimore. The Rays could have let Eovaldi remain in Tampa the rest of the year. They should get something of value to make them want to make a deal or otherwise what's the point? What's the point of a team taking another team's 50th best prospect or whatever, somebody with a miniscule chance of making the majors? Really, Beeks isn't that huge a price to pay for a rental. Jeff Bagwell was a huge ridiculous price to pay for a rental. Beeks isn't Bagwell. The Red Sox have three pitchers in their system that have roughly the same profile as Beeks - Johnson, Velazquez, and Shawayrn - guys that can start at the back end of a rotation or pitch in relief. It's not that costly.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Jul 25, 2018 20:36:29 GMT -5
I've read through the entire thread (though chasing the end of it was a problem as it ballooned). There's some nutty stuff in here, which I'll ignore. You know who you are you wanna-be GMs...
This fits absolutely into the Dombrowski model, as others have said. The thing is, that model has been quite successful to this point. He's very good at the toughest thing any GM in any sport has to do: sell high (though I have to admit that what he bought - twice - was damaged goods). Has anyone checked out Moncada, Espinoza, Margot, Asuaje, and even Shaw lately? People using the list of prospects to scream bloody murder are coming at this from some alternate universe. There may be gems emerging from the lower minors, but at the upper levels the cupboard is just about empty. That #6 tag is largely meaningless with that as context. Beeks may be successful at some point, but for whatever reason - the yips, the hitters, the stuff - it wasn't going to happen this year. It may somewhere else at some point, but he is not irreplaceable. He just isn't.
To repeat a lot of what others have said, the team was lousy with left handed starters and Beeks was just one more in that long list. If they hope to do well in the playoffs - and they're obviously going there - then they need right-handed not left-handed pitching. That's got to be clear to people (I hope). Eovaldi has very good stuff and he seems to be commanding it, at least after just a few times through a lineup. But that fact and the stellar K/BB ratio scream instant relief help also.
This is a page ripped right out of the Foxboro times, one that's headlined flexibility. The team needed starter insurance, and relief help. They may have acquired both depending on the sun angle you use to examine this trade.
One last thing. People have got to introduce a time-dependent dynamic into their evaluations. The notion that some impression you have of a player is fixed in stone is almost useless. I dumped that years ago. People change, they refine their skills as they mature, they learn... all of it. Anyone who watched Rich Hill, someone who struggled for the bulk of his career, blossom when he came to the Sox should have that ingrained in their brainwaves.
Give the guy a chance to show what he's got.
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Post by dirtdog on Jul 25, 2018 20:52:22 GMT -5
My 2 cents. Some of you stat guys are so buried in the bunker of metrics that you fail to see the forest for the trees (BTW I do love you guys) to me it boils down to this: This team could win 100 games, lose the division, and lose a one game wild card and season over. I can hear the griping already, DD should have made the obvious move to bolster the bull pen and rotation in July. Guess what, he did and didnt cost a premium prospect. Like somebody posted earlier the fact that Beeks is the number 6 prospect says more about the system than anything else.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 25, 2018 20:55:30 GMT -5
I do think Eovaldi is the second best starter on this staff right now. I wouldn't have any ideas of putting him in the bullpen.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 25, 2018 20:57:09 GMT -5
My 2 cents. Some of you stat guys are so buried on the bunker of metrics that you fail to see the forest for the trees (BTW I do love you guys) to me it boils down to this: This team could win 100 games, lose the division, and lose a one game wild card and season over. I can hear the griping already, DD should have made the obvious move to bolster the bull pen and rotation in July. Guess what, he did and didnt cost a premium prospect. Like somebody posted earlier the fact that Beeks is the number 6 prospect says more about the system than anything else. I think the Sox make this trade because they dont want to play in that wild card game.
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Post by dirtdog on Jul 25, 2018 20:59:09 GMT -5
My 2 cents. Some of you stat guys are so buried on the bunker of metrics that you fail to see the forest for the trees (BTW I do love you guys) to me it boils down to this: This team could win 100 games, lose the division, and lose a one game wild card and season over. I can hear the griping already, DD should have made the obvious move to bolster the bull pen and rotation in July. Guess what, he did and didnt cost a premium prospect. Like somebody posted earlier the fact that Beeks is the number 6 prospect says more about the system than anything else. I think the Sox make this trade because they dont want to play in that wild card game. And boom goes the dynamite.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 25, 2018 21:09:02 GMT -5
I think the Sox make this trade because they dont want to play in that wild card game. And boom goes the dynamite. Yeah just to expand on that, the Eduardo Rodriguez injury could have been a real season killer in terms of the division. Dave went a long way into turning that around really quickly and shored up that question. This rotation is now a strength once they stop starting Pomeranz who has nothing this season.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jul 25, 2018 21:13:36 GMT -5
Ah man, I'm sad to see Beeks go. I felt like he could actually do the thing my man Keith Couch failed to do: overachieve his initial ceiling like crazy and put up some rockstar numbers even if for a few weeks. I still think he can do it. That's the thing that should pretty much be a consensus to everyone here, we all like prospects and pitching prospects are fledging mystical creatures and you just never know what you're going to get and that makes them even more exciting.
Eovaldi is solid. He doesn't walk a lot of dudes. Solid K's. I don't know. I don't care. Life sucks. Could Kutter Crawford be the one?
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Post by greenmonster on Jul 25, 2018 21:26:10 GMT -5
Not sure if I missed any, but for those who are down on Dombrowski, which trade would you void? ........I guess Shaw would be the one guy I wish they still had, but Seems like a pretty good track record to me
Kimbrel - Margot, Guerra, Asuaje, Allen
Sale - Moncada, Kopech, Alexander-Basabe, Diaz
Pomeranz - Espinosa
Smith - Miley
Thornburg - Shaw, Dubon
Ziegler - Almonte, Alejandro-Basabe
Pearce - Espinal
Eovaldi - Beeks
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 25, 2018 21:41:57 GMT -5
Not sure if I missed any, but for those who are down on Dombrowski, which trade would you void? Seems like a pretty good track record to me........ Kimbrel Margot Guerra Asuaje Allen Sale Moncada Kopech Alexander-Basabe Diaz Pomeranz Espinosa Smith Miley Thornburg Shaw Dubon Ziegler Almonte Alejandro-Basabe Pearce Espinal Eovaldi Beeks I screamed bloody murder on the Pomeranz/Espinoza deal, but at the moment the Sox got a division championship because Pomeranz was a difference maker in 2017, so they got one strong year out of him. I do believe Espinoza will eventually be good for the Padres, but that's not a guarantee at this point so at the moment this deal has helped the Sox, not hurt them. I'm sure most people will say they wish they could take back the Shaw plus Dubon for Thornburg deal. The Sox have been the big losers in that deal and it could get worse if Dubon or even Coco amount to anything. But the good news is that the deal wasn't a killer. Signing Mitch Moreland for cheap and having Devers come up and contribute helped mitigate the damage the deal did on the field for the Sox, so maybe if Thornburg pitches well the rest of this year and in the future, the Sox will have gotten something useful out of the deal. The rest of the trades have worked out well for the Sox. Logan Allen might be a guy the Sox wish they had back but it's hard to argue that the Sox didn't get impact relief pitching from Kimbrel for at least 2 of the 3 years anyways - he wasn't completely healthy that first year. And they might regret losing Moncada, Kopech, and even Basabe down the road, but how can you argue with what Chris Sale has meant for the Red Sox? Here's hoping they can keep him beyond 2019 - the best pitcher the Sox have had since Pedro and the 3rd best pitcher the Sox have had since I've been watching them since 1980 behind Pedro and Roger Clemens. That's good company to keep. Dombrowski does a good job sorting out the talent and did well in his trades and even the one he lost his shirt on, it didn't kill the Red Sox. They were able to replace Shaw with a guy they got on the cheap that was almost as good and they have a relief pitcher they think can still help them down the road. I don't always agree with Dombrowski and I usually lean on the side of keep the kids, and I wouldn't have made some of the moves he's made, but I think he has guts, and I respect the job he's done. I realize now that if he didn't make the moves he'd made perhaps we'd have an 85 win team for about a decade. It's better to have boom and bust in this day and age for baseball than just be good. The farm had some great prospects but not enough to make a championship team without being supplemented. I have to give him credit. The Red Sox had a legit chance to win in 2016, but it didn't happen, and they had a reasonable chance last season, but like 2016 their good starters stunk. The Sox have a great chance this season and should still have good shots over the next couple of years. They might not win but it won't be because Dombrowski didn't give them a shot. Compare it to Cherington whose team in 2013 caught lightning in a bottle, but wasn't good in the other seasons. They had one real shot and they capitalized while Dombrowski's Tigers had many shots but never cashed in. Not much you can do about that. Still better to have many chances, though.
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Post by taftreign on Jul 25, 2018 21:53:55 GMT -5
Beeks also slots in as the 16th best prospect in the Rays system according to MLB.com. I believe he was 6th on Boston's list at the time. Obviously not a player that we want to give away for free, but that doesn't really break the bank or prevent us from making future moves. Beeks was Sox Prospects #6 prospect but on MLB.com prospect pipeline list he was Bostons's #15 prospect before being traded. They clearly had him evaluated differently.
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Post by libertine on Jul 25, 2018 22:25:29 GMT -5
All Eovaldi needs to do is just pitch like he has in TB this season and the Sox should win at least 60-65% of the games he starts. A bit ambivalent on this one but a need has been filled. While I am concerned about the long term prospects for the system this trade has very little impact on that imo.
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Post by kingofthetrill on Jul 25, 2018 22:28:12 GMT -5
I think the main gripe with some of the Dombrowski trades is that I feel like he could have gotten away with giving up one fewer piece. It seemed like we were always the one including throw-ins rather than receiving them. My rough impression of Dombrowski vs. Cherington was that Dombrowski would walk away with the car he wanted regardless of the price and Cherington might not get the car he wanted but it might have been for a better price/value. Both have their pluses and minuses.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 25, 2018 23:06:45 GMT -5
Not sure if I missed any, but for those who are down on Dombrowski, which trade would you void? ........I guess Shaw would be the one guy I wish they still had, but Seems like a pretty good track record to me Kimbrel - Margot, Guerra, Asuaje, Allen Sale - Moncada, Kopech, Alexander-Basabe, Diaz Pomeranz - Espinosa Smith - Miley Thornburg - Shaw, Dubon Ziegler - Almonte, Alejandro-Basabe Pearce - Espinal Eovaldi - Beeks We're scored more runs than any other team in baseball and we've got defensively capable 2B options. We're good. It would be nice to have another bullpen arm, but we don't need it. If we need two elite innings in the playoffs Kimbrel can throw both of them with all the off days. Plus the trade options kind of suck. Even if you do think we need a RP/2B you have to admit there aren't a lot of obvious fits. Even if there were an obvious fit, we can't afford it. Don't have the cash, don't have the prospects. This trade give the front office the ammo to say they tried and we still keep all of our "elite" prospects and also stay under the cap helping to plan for the future. The Sox are probably already over the 237 right now. They didn't manage to stay under anything. Secondly, have you seen Eduardo Nunez play second base? There are at least 2 good or great 2B fits that can be had for very little because they are rentals in Dozier and Asdrubal Cabrera. I don't want to detract the thread, but I thought your opinion on second base was way out there.
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ericmvan
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Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,933
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Post by ericmvan on Jul 25, 2018 23:45:37 GMT -5
This thread is a tire fire That's an insult to tire fires.
You know why people hate this trade? Because Jonny Venters gave up a two-out bases-clearing double to Gary Sanchez in the bottom of the 8th inning on June 15th. If he gets Sanchez out, Eovaldi's ERA is 3.79 and everyone who just looks at ERA thinks he's pretty good.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 26, 2018 0:52:18 GMT -5
Injuries sometimes forces trades and that's what happened here. Can't wait to see what Eovaldi brings. I hated facing this guy when he was on the Yankees. He was tough to hit and he still isn't walking anyone. That stuff is what plays in the AL East.
I'm ecstatic that the Sox even got this guy on a market where *7* teams are looking to trade for a starter right now and the Sox came away as winners with a depleted farm system.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jul 26, 2018 1:05:00 GMT -5
Last I heard with the dollars the Jays ate for Pearce, the Sox were at $235m. This doesn't put them over. If they go over, they will go over big.
I'm guessing any additions at this point (like a 2Bman) will have a higher prospect costs as a trade off for salary eating by the other team.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jul 26, 2018 1:08:22 GMT -5
The Sox just one upped the Yankees. The Yankees are now likely to counter, spending more prospects to end up in second place.7 of the 10 remaining games with the Yankees are at Fenway.
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ericmvan
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Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,933
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Post by ericmvan on Jul 26, 2018 1:55:54 GMT -5
The roster move has to be to option somebody, and the obvious guy is Velazquez, after he possibly piggybacks on Johnson tomorrow.
The really interesting bullpen roster moves would come if they got Dozier or the equivalent and went back to a 4-man bench, or traded for Duke or Diekman to add a true matchup lefty to the pen. Workman's too good and Brasier's too interesting to send down, and Kelly has too much upside to dump. I keep coming back to trading Workman to help restock the system a fraction, if they add a LHR.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 26, 2018 2:35:58 GMT -5
The roster move has to be to option somebody, and the obvious guy is Velazquez, after he possibly piggybacks on Johnson tomorrow.
The really interesting bullpen roster moves would come if they got Dozier or the equivalent and went back to a 4-man bench, or traded for Duke or Diekman to add a true matchup lefty to the pen. Workman's too good and Brasier's too interesting to send down, and Kelly has too much upside to dump. I keep coming back to trading Workman to help restock the system a fraction, if they add a LHR.
I think the Sox option Workman. They already burned his option year and they haven't burned a option year for Velazquez yet. Velazquez is more useful with his multi inning purposes for this team too. They could phantom DL Kelly if the league allows them, I suppose.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jul 26, 2018 4:35:56 GMT -5
Rob Bradford Verified account @bradfo 13h13 hours ago More Dombrowski said felt Eovaldi more of a priority then Britton
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Post by adiospaydro2005 on Jul 26, 2018 5:40:48 GMT -5
Rob Bradford Verified account @bradfo 13h13 hours ago More Dombrowski said felt Eovaldi more of a priority then Britton In some respects I can see that as Eovaldi can either start or relieve. With Rodriquez hurt and Pomeranz looking less than mediocre, they needed Eovaldi to start right now, However he could be a very valuable piece out of the bullpen in the 7th or 8th inning. Also, I didn’t see Beeks as having much value with the Red Sox as a fly ball pitcher in Fenway.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 26, 2018 5:57:11 GMT -5
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jul 26, 2018 6:11:16 GMT -5
Peter Gammons Verified account @pgammo 36m36 minutes ago
Eovaldi relieves thinning Bosox starting staff. From exec who was following him:"with 98 MPH up in zone, filthy 95 MPH cutter, hard slider and split, he has the kind of power stuff that can come up big out of pen in October."
Peter Gammons Verified account @pgammo 34m34 minutes ago
With a $2M contract entering free agency, the 3d-time-around-the-order stats have the makings of a hybrid 8-9 out October reliever . . . My thought, I'm guessing Bannister was a major factor in the decision. I'm also guessing he's been thinking out the 3rd time through the order thing. Is there anyone better ?
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 26, 2018 6:23:20 GMT -5
This article highlights the changes the Yankees made with Eovaldi, and then it points out the changes the Rays made with him. I think Eovaldi was the best pitcher (not just starter) the Sox could get this deadline.
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