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2018 MLB Awards Thread (Gold Glove, MVP, etc.)
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 14, 2018 12:26:45 GMT -5
I guess there was absolutely nothing that Cora could have done to win the award this year. I mean 15 more wins than Farrell with almost the same roster is pretty good. JDM didn't account for those 15 wins. What accounted for the A's 22 game improvement ? The fact that the A's really stunk the year before. I mean, look at manager John Farrell circa 2013 and Alex Cora circa 2018. John Farrell improved the Red Sox from 69 wins to 97 wins, a whopping 28 game improvement. Meanwhile Alex Cora improved a 93 win Red Sox team to 108 wins, which is "only" a 15 game improvement. So by that logic I guess John Farrell was a better manger in 2013 than Alex Cora in 2018? You watched both of those guys up close during both seasons. Would you conclude that? I guess Farrell was helped out by the fact that Bobby Valentine was so atrocious in 2012? I don't want to say that Melvin doesn't deserve it - perhaps he does? But I knew that Cora had no chance at all and I'm thinking what in the world could he have done better? Hope that his predecessor Farrell was as bad as Valentine before him so they could have a massive improvement? To me the Sox were a really good team that apparently had potential to be an all-time juggernaut - that wasn't really that apparent to me and given some of the issues he had to deal with (like I mentioned before the lack of productivity at almost half the positions on the field and his ace pitcher, the best in the league when healthy, gone for two months), I'd say it was a tremendous performance. Likewise Melvin had to deal with Manaea being gone. He did have a lot of good young maturing players who matured while some others had fantastic seasons. Chapman took a big step forward. Olson in the lineup everyday was a factor and he combined with the leading HR hitter in the majors Khris Davis to give them a fearsome lineup. Lowrie had his best season arguably. Canha took a step forward. Piscotty had an excellent season. Semien was productive. Melvin had the best closer in the league, too. I don't think many thought Blake Treinen would being so dominating and I'm sure that's a part of how the A's exceeded their record. Get a close game and Treinen hardly ever gives up a run - good formula for winning a lot of games that may have slipped the year before. Melvin did a great job of juggling his pitching staff. As did Cash, given that Tampa never really had 5 presentable starters and their offense looked like it would lack punch. Truthfully the Rays were the only team in 2018 to totally manhandle the Red Sox in a series, which they did in August, so Cash does deserve a ton of credit, too. It's just that the Sox are among the top teams this century in wins and they were able to do so despite issues that I think most managers would have had trouble maximizing performance from, so yeah I wonder what more Cora could have possibly done. Break the all-time win mark? What would have worked? As a baseball card collector, I was hoping his winning the award would generate a manager baseball card of Cora. Apparently Topps Now already put one out when he was in showcasing the trophy in Puerto Rico, but I missed it and those things are damn expensive. So I had another ulterior motive for wanting Cora to win (other than I thought he was very deserving)
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 14, 2018 12:35:54 GMT -5
What accounted for the A's 22 game improvement ? The fact that the A's really stunk the year before. I mean, look at manager John Farrell circa 2013 and Alex Cora circa 2018. John Farrell improved the Red Sox from 69 wins to 97 wins, a whopping 28 game improvement. Meanwhile Alex Cora improved a 93 win Red Sox team to 108 wins, which is "only" a 15 game improvement. So by that logic I guess John Farrell was a better manger in 2013 than Alex Cora in 2018? You watched both of those guys up close during both seasons. Would you conclude that? I guess Farrell was helped out by the fact that Bobby Valentine was so atrocious in 2012? I don't want to say that Melvin doesn't deserve it - perhaps he does? But I knew that Cora had no chance at all and I'm thinking what in the world could he have done better? Hope that his predecessor Farrell was as bad as Valentine before him so they could have a massive improvement? To me the Sox were a really good team that apparently had potential to be an all-time juggernaut - that wasn't really that apparent to me and given some of the issues he had to deal with (like I mentioned before the lack of productivity at almost half the positions on the field and his ace pitcher, the best in the league when healthy, gone for two months), I'd say it was a tremendous performance. Likewise Melvin had to deal with Manaea being gone. He did have a lot of good young maturing players who matured while some others had fantastic seasons. Chapman took a big step forward. Olson in the lineup everyday was a factor and he combined with the leading HR hitter in the majors Khris Davis to give them a fearsome lineup. Lowrie had his best season arguably. Canha took a step forward. Piscotty had an excellent season. Semien was productive. Melvin had the best closer in the league, too. I don't think many thought Blake Treinen would being so dominating and I'm sure that's a part of how the A's exceeded their record. Get a close game and Treinen hardly ever gives up a run - good formula for winning a lot of games that may have slipped the year before. Melvin did a great job of juggling his pitching staff. As did Cash, given that Tampa never really had 5 presentable starters and their offense looked like it would lack punch. Truthfully the Rays were the only team in 2018 to totally manhandle the Red Sox in a series, which they did in August, so Cash does deserve a ton of credit, too. It's just that the Sox are among the top teams this century in wins and they were able to do so despite issues that I think most managers would have had trouble maximizing performance from, so yeah I wonder what more Cora could have possibly done. Break the all-time win mark? What would have worked? As a baseball card collector, I was hoping his winning the award would generate a manager baseball card of Cora. Apparently Topps Now already put one out when he was in showcasing the trophy in Puerto Rico, but I missed it and those things are damn expensive. So I had another ulterior motive for wanting Cora to win (other than I thought he was very deserving) This is what I think of Cora as a manager. I hope that they give him a 10 year deal paid as a top-5 manager in baseball.
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Post by James Dunne on Nov 14, 2018 12:40:08 GMT -5
What accounted for the A's 22 game improvement ? A lot of players had much better seasons than the year before. Same as the Red Sox. Still, my point remains. I guess Cora had to go 162-0 for some people to consider him as a possible winner. I've read comments sections on fangraphs and mlb and all the non-Sox fans seem to think a kid in kindergarten could have done the job Cora did because of the roster, but that's f'ing stupid. At some point, the Red Sox can exceed expectations, and that was probably set at about 95 wins before the season started. So picking out the dumbest comments in a comment section is kind of a weakman argument. It would be like if a Dodgers fan signed on here and was like "I saw a guy on SoxProspects say the Red Sox could get Urias for Swihart, aren't Red Sox fans dumb?" Nobody with a voice thinks that Cora deserves no credit for what he did. It's just that MotY has ALWAYS had this level, fair or not, of being a measure of how much a team outperformed its expectations. The A's did that more than any other team. And it's not like they were slotted at 68 wins and won 82... they won 97 games with a patchwork roster. Melvin deserves a ton of credit for that. And to answer your question "what does Alex Cora have to do..." and the answer is nothing. There's no circumstance where a big market manager of a highly regarded team is going to win Manager of the Year when a team that's expected to win 75 wins 97. I don't really agree with that, but that's pretty much always been the standard. It's why Buck Showalter has won three times despite being a good enough manager to keep getting fired every half-dozen years or so. It's why Francona won in Cleveland twice in four years (and he definitely deserved in 2016 by any standard) but never in Boston. His best season as a manger here was probably 2008, and he finished fourth - because they were coming off the World Series and they ended up finishing second. Red Sox and Yankees fans will have to deal with never getting to see their guy win the Manager of the Year and settling for teams so good that they are expected to win 90+ games every year.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Nov 14, 2018 14:58:12 GMT -5
1. No one really knows how to objectively judge managers, and to the extent that we do, Cora, Melvin, and Cash were all reasonable choices. Would have been cool to see Cora win, but whatever, a WS ring makes for a nice consolation prize.
2. This is the award that feels the most compromised for being voted on prior to the playoffs. Maybe it's just that the job of a manager becomes more visible during the postseason, but it certainly seems like employing Alex Cora was a greater advantage for the Red Sox in October than it was from April to September. Not that it would necessarily be good to include the postseason as part of the voting because then it probably just goes to whoever won the World Series that year, but it still feels weird to ignore how a manager operates in the postseason when that's like 50% of how we otherwise judge who the good ones are.
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 14, 2018 18:00:11 GMT -5
The fact that the A's really stunk the year before. I mean, look at manager John Farrell circa 2013 and Alex Cora circa 2018. John Farrell improved the Red Sox from 69 wins to 97 wins, a whopping 28 game improvement. Meanwhile Alex Cora improved a 93 win Red Sox team to 108 wins, which is "only" a 15 game improvement. So by that logic I guess John Farrell was a better manger in 2013 than Alex Cora in 2018? You watched both of those guys up close during both seasons. Would you conclude that? I guess Farrell was helped out by the fact that Bobby Valentine was so atrocious in 2012? I don't want to say that Melvin doesn't deserve it - perhaps he does? But I knew that Cora had no chance at all and I'm thinking what in the world could he have done better? Hope that his predecessor Farrell was as bad as Valentine before him so they could have a massive improvement? To me the Sox were a really good team that apparently had potential to be an all-time juggernaut - that wasn't really that apparent to me and given some of the issues he had to deal with (like I mentioned before the lack of productivity at almost half the positions on the field and his ace pitcher, the best in the league when healthy, gone for two months), I'd say it was a tremendous performance. Likewise Melvin had to deal with Manaea being gone. He did have a lot of good young maturing players who matured while some others had fantastic seasons. Chapman took a big step forward. Olson in the lineup everyday was a factor and he combined with the leading HR hitter in the majors Khris Davis to give them a fearsome lineup. Lowrie had his best season arguably. Canha took a step forward. Piscotty had an excellent season. Semien was productive. Melvin had the best closer in the league, too. I don't think many thought Blake Treinen would being so dominating and I'm sure that's a part of how the A's exceeded their record. Get a close game and Treinen hardly ever gives up a run - good formula for winning a lot of games that may have slipped the year before. Melvin did a great job of juggling his pitching staff. As did Cash, given that Tampa never really had 5 presentable starters and their offense looked like it would lack punch. Truthfully the Rays were the only team in 2018 to totally manhandle the Red Sox in a series, which they did in August, so Cash does deserve a ton of credit, too. It's just that the Sox are among the top teams this century in wins and they were able to do so despite issues that I think most managers would have had trouble maximizing performance from, so yeah I wonder what more Cora could have possibly done. Break the all-time win mark? What would have worked? As a baseball card collector, I was hoping his winning the award would generate a manager baseball card of Cora. Apparently Topps Now already put one out when he was in showcasing the trophy in Puerto Rico, but I missed it and those things are damn expensive. So I had another ulterior motive for wanting Cora to win (other than I thought he was very deserving) This is what I think of Cora as a manager. I hope that they give him a 10 year deal paid as a top-5 manager in baseball. Funny. They reached a new agreement today. No word on the money, but he's now signed through 2021 with a club option for 2022 so it's one extra year. Hope he got a big raise. www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/11/red-sox-extend-alex-cora.html
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 14, 2018 18:02:12 GMT -5
Just posted in the other thread - the 2019 thread . Well deserved!
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Post by taftreign on Nov 14, 2018 19:34:18 GMT -5
Snell and DeGrom win Cy Youngs. Snell won a fairly close contest with Verlander while DeGrom was quite ahead of Scherzer who finished second. In the AL Kluber was third and Sale fourth. Not much love for the best relievers in either league; Hader, Treinen and Diaz. www.mlb.com/news/2018-cy-young-award-winners/c-300724470
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Nov 14, 2018 19:53:57 GMT -5
It isn't homerism, Cora deserved it. And i don't buy the large market argument either. He was a rookie manager, who had a profound effect on this team. Besides, just about every move he made was damn near perfect. He should have won the award.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Nov 15, 2018 2:37:30 GMT -5
It isn't homerism, Cora deserved it. And i don't buy the large market argument either. He was a rookie manager, who had a profound effect on this team. Besides, just about every move he made was damn near perfect. He should have won the award. This is exactly homerism. You're not even talking about the other managers in consideration, just Cora. Your logic is "the manager of my favorite team was really good, so he should win this award", which is, by definition, homerism. Cora was absolutely deserving of the award, people just felt like Melvin was moreso, and I agree that he was.
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Post by ancientsoxfogey on Nov 15, 2018 7:03:24 GMT -5
To be fair, this award is mostly based on nothing but how the team outperformed preseason expectations. It's very arbitrary and not based on and real statistics that can be accurately attributed to the manager. Or what these guys said: www.sbnation.com/mlb/2018/11/13/18091454/mlb-manager-award-pointless-its-all-pointlessTreating the award like a team award for collective over achievement doesn't necessarily tell you who the best manager is, but what else do you do? Well, you could call the award what it is: The Breakout Team of the Year Award.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Nov 15, 2018 19:22:32 GMT -5
It isn't homerism, Cora deserved it. And i don't buy the large market argument either. He was a rookie manager, who had a profound effect on this team. Besides, just about every move he made was damn near perfect. He should have won the award. This is exactly homerism. You're not even talking about the other managers in consideration, just Cora. Your logic is "the manager of my favorite team was really good, so he should win this award", which is, by definition, homerism. Cora was absolutely deserving of the award, people just felt like Melvin was moreso, and I agree that he was. No it isn't. I am a minimalist by nature, and that extends to my posting style. Although I have posted a lot, I am pretty much an empty vessel when it comes analytic posting, but I got a cargo full of love for the Boston Red Sox, and I don't make apologies for that. People like to think achievement with less equates to greater accomplishment, and that holds true with his competitors for this award. But I couldn't disagree more. Matter of fact, I would put forward the notion that it is as difficult to achieve what he did this year, given all the talent at his disposal. Plenty of sports teams that have underachieved in my lifetime. Given your take on my post, I will take some time and write 3 very important reasons that I believe he is most deserving, but certainly not the only reasons (and i am only going by what I have read from sources) 1). He had a part in changing the offensive dynamic be encouraging hitters to be more aggressive early in the count / in the zone. 2). He made the obvious, but extremely difficult decision, to cut ties with Hanley Ramirez. That took a lot guts. 3). Working along DD's own words of his influence on managerial decision making, whereas DD admitted that he allows his managers to manage the game with as little FO interference as possible, and does not interfere with managerial and coaches decisions. That puts a lot of the onus on Cora's management skills. One can only guess what level that occurs on the other teams, but my guess, given the ego of the people running front offices these days.....well that isn't something you hear too often.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Nov 16, 2018 7:36:06 GMT -5
Josh Norris@jnorris427
Rusney Castillo was paid more than four of the six MVP finalists in 2018. Trout and Arenado were the exceptions.
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radiohix
Veteran
'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,273
Member is Online
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Post by radiohix on Nov 18, 2018 10:21:14 GMT -5
3 weeks ago, YOUR BOSTON RED SOX WON THE WS AND IT WASN'T EVEN CLOSE!
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iii
Rookie
Posts: 46
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Post by iii on Nov 18, 2018 14:52:50 GMT -5
There's a significant gap between sports talk radio and reality always, but no bigger gap than their two years of taking swipes at Benintendi's defense compared to his actual level of defensive play. Let's be honest. Benny was a CF in college and minors and it took him some time to adjust to LF. While there were times he had issues, the last year and a half he showed his defensive upside and this year he earned being a gold glove outfield finalist.
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Post by James Dunne on Nov 19, 2018 11:56:11 GMT -5
So, I saw a Delmon Young reference earlier today, and it reminded me about the time he got a couple first place votes instead of Dustin Pedroia for 2007 Rookie of the Year. I went back to see if that was as ridiculous as I remembered it being at the time (it was), but look at who finished third, fourth, and sixth that year: www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_2007.shtml#all_AL_ROY_voting
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 19, 2018 12:18:34 GMT -5
So, I saw a Delmon Young reference earlier today, and it reminded me about the time he got a couple first place votes instead of Dustin Pedroia for 2007 Rookie of the Year. I went back to see if that was as ridiculous as I remembered it being at the time (it was), but look at who finished third, fourth, and sixth that year: www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_2007.shtml#all_AL_ROY_votingCheck out Troy Tulowitski losing to Ryan Braun (6.8 to 2.0 bWAR)
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Post by James Dunne on Nov 19, 2018 12:25:07 GMT -5
Yep. That was especially egregious considering how Tulowitzki should've gotten any **NARRATIVE** points because of the Rockies ridiculous run to close the season.
Also, Troy Tulowitzki just turned 34 years old last month, not 75, which is weird.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Nov 20, 2018 20:57:03 GMT -5
So, I saw a Delmon Young reference earlier today, and it reminded me about the time he got a couple first place votes instead of Dustin Pedroia for 2007 Rookie of the Year. I went back to see if that was as ridiculous as I remembered it being at the time (it was), but look at who finished third, fourth, and sixth that year: www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_2007.shtml#all_AL_ROY_votingThat Reggie Willits season was also wild.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Nov 21, 2018 8:49:08 GMT -5
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
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Post by ericmvan on Nov 25, 2018 12:26:02 GMT -5
BA names Dave Dombrowski as Executive of the Year. It's in the print issue which arrived Friday but not yet online. Excellent story which I'll link to if it's not behind their paywall.
He's one of their few 2-time winners.
Baird talks about his ability to nail free agency and the trade deadline. They don't mention what seems to be his biggest strength, which his ability to judge his own prospect talent. Cross your fingers, but so far Manny Margot is closer to Cameron Maybin than an All-Star, Moncada looks like his contact issues will forever limit him to below superstar, and Espinoza and Kopech's injuries have put their careers in doubt )although there may be some luck involved with that).
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Post by michael on Nov 25, 2018 13:34:06 GMT -5
IMO Alex Cora didn't win MOY because he suffered the same issue that damned JBJ until this year; he didn't hit well enough.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Nov 25, 2018 16:16:53 GMT -5
BA names Dave Dombrowski as Executive of the Year. It's in the print issue which arrived Friday but not yet online. Excellent story which I'll link to if it's not behind their paywall. He's one of their few 2-time winners. Baird talks about his ability to nail free agency and the trade deadline. They don't mention what seems to be his biggest strength, which his ability to judge his own prospect talent. Cross your fingers, but so far Manny Margot is closer to Cameron Maybin than an All-Star, Moncada looks like his contact issues will forever limit him to below superstar, and Espinoza and Kopech's injuries have put their careers in doubt )although there may be some luck involved with that).
I always root for our ex prospects to do well. Maybe you should uncross yours.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Nov 25, 2018 16:19:21 GMT -5
BA names Dave Dombrowski as Executive of the Year. It's in the print issue which arrived Friday but not yet online. Excellent story which I'll link to if it's not behind their paywall.
He's one of their few 2-time winners.
Baird talks about his ability to nail free agency and the trade deadline. They don't mention what seems to be his biggest strength, which his ability to judge his own prospect talent. Cross your fingers, but so far Manny Margot is closer to Cameron Maybin than an All-Star, Moncada looks like his contact issues will forever limit him to below superstar, and Espinoza and Kopech's injuries have put their careers in doubt )although there may be some luck involved with that).
He was flawless outside of the Kinsler trade. Gave up a just a tad too much on that deal, but what a year for Dombrowski. His best year in his 30 years as a GM.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Nov 25, 2018 16:30:26 GMT -5
BA names Dave Dombrowski as Executive of the Year. It's in the print issue which arrived Friday but not yet online. Excellent story which I'll link to if it's not behind their paywall. He's one of their few 2-time winners. Baird talks about his ability to nail free agency and the trade deadline. They don't mention what seems to be his biggest strength, which his ability to judge his own prospect talent. Cross your fingers, but so far Manny Margot is closer to Cameron Maybin than an All-Star, Moncada looks like his contact issues will forever limit him to below superstar, and Espinoza and Kopech's injuries have put their careers in doubt )although there may be some luck involved with that).
He was flawless outside of the Kinsler trade. Gave up a just a tad too much on that deal, but what a year for Dombrowski. His best year in his 30 years as a GM. I think the Kinsler trade issue was the other side of the equation, we didn't give up that much but Kinsler under-performed his history.
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 25, 2018 16:41:40 GMT -5
He was flawless outside of the Kinsler trade. Gave up a just a tad too much on that deal, but what a year for Dombrowski. His best year in his 30 years as a GM. I think the Kinsler trade issue was the other side of the equation, we didn't give up that much but Kinsler under-performed his history. He was on fire before he hurt his hamstring, so we kinda lost out on that hot streak.
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