SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
|
Post by James Dunne on Mar 19, 2019 14:38:08 GMT -5
Hindsight is 20/20, but it seemed odd at the time that Buttrey never got mlb innings before he was traded and Lin could have put up a .608 OPS for free. Utilizing organizational players and seeing what they were capable of would have been a better team building move in my opinion. Reminds me of a certain catching situation, just to hit two dead horses with one swing.... They had seven years to evaluate Buttrey. 16 1/3 MLB innings wouldn't/shouldn't change their evaluation of him - especially for a guy whose MO is that he'd be very good for stretches but also has had trouble sustaining success. If they're wrong, then they were wrong, and that's fine. But this idea that if they'd just called him up they'd have seen how brilliant he was? That's really not how it works.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Mar 19, 2019 16:59:56 GMT -5
Hindsight is 20/20, but it seemed odd at the time that Buttrey never got mlb innings before he was traded and Lin could have put up a .608 OPS for free. Utilizing organizational players and seeing what they were capable of would have been a better team building move in my opinion. Reminds me of a certain catching situation, just to hit two dead horses with one swing.... They had seven years to evaluate Buttrey. 16 1/3 MLB innings wouldn't/shouldn't change their evaluation of him - especially for a guy whose MO is that he'd be very good for stretches but also has had trouble sustaining success.If they're wrong, then they were wrong, and that's fine. But this idea that if they'd just called him up they'd have seen how brilliant he was? That's really not how it works. It might not change their evaluation of him, but it can change ours. 16 innings is enough to get some real information about his pitches, and his pitches looked fantastic. Not even just good, he touched 100 with the fastball, was confident in throwing not one but two secondaries, and he got great results on all of them. He showed a borderline elite set of tools for a reliever. Now, the Red Sox would have seen all the same data (minus the results against MLB hitters) unless he unlocked something after the trade, so they must have some other reason to be concerned, but man, I was shocked to see how good he looked in the majors. Edit: Pretty good David Laurila interview with him available at Fangraphs: blogs.fangraphs.com/angels-righty-ty-buttrey-on-how-he-turned-a-corner/
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 19, 2019 17:13:01 GMT -5
Why is that a shock? He always had elite stuff it was always the command and control comes and goes wildly. 16 innings doesn't change that.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Mar 19, 2019 18:41:58 GMT -5
Why is that a shock? He always had elite stuff it was always the command and control comes and goes wildly. 16 innings doesn't change that.Joe Kelly says hi.
|
|
|
Post by Don Caballero on Mar 19, 2019 19:20:14 GMT -5
Shouldn't we wait and see there?
|
|
bosox
Veteran
Posts: 2,117
|
Post by bosox on Mar 19, 2019 19:56:05 GMT -5
Shouldn't we wait and see there? Agreed. We should wait and see what's cooking with him.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Mar 20, 2019 0:11:19 GMT -5
Shouldn't we wait and see there? I’m not even a Joe Kelly believer myself, I’m just saying that I’m probably more likely to take seriously the small sample from the 25 year old who got a fresh start and figured something out than the small sample from Joe Kelly, who is Joe Kelly.
|
|
|
Post by wildsox on Mar 20, 2019 2:59:46 GMT -5
I’m interested to see if we get anything out of Jenrry Mejia
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Mar 20, 2019 9:46:33 GMT -5
They had seven years to evaluate Buttrey. 16 1/3 MLB innings wouldn't/shouldn't change their evaluation of him - especially for a guy whose MO is that he'd be very good for stretches but also has had trouble sustaining success. If they're wrong, then they were wrong, and that's fine. But this idea that if they'd just called him up they'd have seen how brilliant he was? That's really not how it works. It just seems odd that in a year where Poyner, Brazier, Cuevas, and Walden all got at least 14 inning in the big leagues that Buttrey never even got a chance with Boston. I didn't expect the promotion to change who he was a a pitcher, but where was this "see what sticks" approach for the guy who right now you could pencil in as the #2/3 option in our current bullpen? It's just seems like they went way out of their way to not give Buttrey a chance and now it appears to be biting them. I'm not a scout and obviously I'm missing a big piece of the puzzle because of that, but all the pieces I have access to say they played this one poorly. I see where you're coming from on that, but I think the approach was more intentional and less "see what sticks" than it seems in hindsight. Brasier is, in my opinion, the better pitcher. Buttrey's track record was short, so it made sense for them to take a veteran like Walden out of spring training. Poyner was the only lefty in the 'pen for most of the time he was there. Cuevas was called up when they potentially needed a long reliever, and got most of those innings after the Kinsler trade. I guess you could argue there were other times they could've turned to him (he could've been above Workman, for example, though Workman pitched well too), but I think it's less obvious. Anyway, personally I'd seen Buttrey be both VERY impressive and also implode before. There's obviously potential there, so if he holds it together and does develop that consistency that he seemed to lack, I'll certainly admit I missed the mark on him. I'm just not there yet.
|
|
|
Post by soxfansince67 on Mar 21, 2019 22:33:35 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Mar 22, 2019 12:51:15 GMT -5
Wasn't exactly sure where to put this, but Alex Wilson won't be part of the Red Sox bullpen. He was picked up by the Brewers. The Red Sox don't look like they're making any additions from outside the organization until midseason.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Mar 22, 2019 13:13:11 GMT -5
Strategically putting this tweet in this thread.
|
|
|
Post by Canseco on Mar 22, 2019 14:16:42 GMT -5
Strategically putting this tweet in this thread. Houck should get a long look by Sox brass to supplement the bullpen in the second half. Let him develop as a SP in the first half, and then transition him to a RP role. Same goes for Hernandez. A lot will hinge on how many of the young arms can give the pen a jolt. Lakins? Feltman? Hernandez? Houck? Shawaryn?
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Mar 22, 2019 14:54:27 GMT -5
Strategically putting this tweet in this thread. Saw another one of those tweets that said his slider is patterned after Chris Sales' slider. That's a pretty good slider to pattern yourself after. And I do agree that Houck as an end of the year option is being underplayed. He's in Portland and if he pitches extremely well it's not hard to imagine a short stay in Pawtucket and him coming aboard at some point in August to help out in the pen. I'm vacationing in Maine in July and I want to try to catch a Sea Dogs game. Perhaps Hernandez and Houck (or even Mata) will be in the rotation for Portland by then. Of course Hernandez could break camp with the Red Sox, but I think he'd be better served honing his control/command in Portland.
|
|
gerry
Veteran
Enter your message here...
Posts: 1,660
|
Post by gerry on Mar 24, 2019 2:54:34 GMT -5
The opening day 8–man Pen is penciled in (Barnes, Brasier, Brewer, Hembree, Workman, Thornburg, Velasquez, Johnson) per Masslive. It remains my opinion that this is a pretty good group that will get the job done,’and the extra $25M helped DDo extend Sale, which is in keeping with the concept of a 5 year open window.
Also, the top tier of bullpen depth looks good and should begin phasing in quickly: Poyner, Feltman, Lakins, Taylor, Mejia, Shawryn, Houck, D. Hernandez, etc. IMO this Pen will emerge as a short and long term asset.
|
|
|
Post by sarasoxer on Mar 24, 2019 5:45:13 GMT -5
The opening day 8–man Pen is penciled in (Barnes, Brasier, Brewer, Hembree, Workman, Thornburg, Velasquez, Johnson) per Masslive. It remains my opinion that this is a pretty good group that will get the job done,’and the extra $25M helped DDo extend Sale, which is in keeping with the concept of a 5 year open window. Also, the top tier of bullpen depth looks good and should begin phasing in quickly: Poyner, Feltman, Lakins, Taylor, Mejia, Shawryn, Houck, D. Hernandez, etc. IMO this Pen will emerge as a short and long term asset. The glass is half full. I think the first half of the year we thresh this out at the cost of absorbing a number of gut wrenching, late game losses. Hopefully the ship steadies late. Glad we signed Sale and that he didn't scrap for every last buck. When is enough, enough....except for those (most) who measure themselves by what their peers get? At some point, you can't outspend your income no matter how hard you try. A few years ago when he re-upped, Pedey took the same stance as Sale.
|
|
|
Post by rjp313jr on Mar 24, 2019 6:16:00 GMT -5
The opening day 8–man Pen is penciled in (Barnes, Brasier, Brewer, Hembree, Workman, Thornburg, Velasquez, Johnson) per Masslive. It remains my opinion that this is a pretty good group that will get the job done,’and the extra $25M helped DDo extend Sale, which is in keeping with the concept of a 5 year open window. Also, the top tier of bullpen depth looks good and should begin phasing in quickly: Poyner, Feltman, Lakins, Taylor, Mejia, Shawryn, Houck, D. Hernandez, etc. IMO this Pen will emerge as a short and long term asset. The glass is half full. I think the first half of the year we thresh this out at the cost of absorbing a number of gut wrenching, late game losses. Hopefully the ship steadies late. Glad we signed Sale and that he didn't scrap for every last buck. When is enough, enough....except for those (most) who measure themselves by what their peers get? At some point, you can't outspend your income no matter how hard you try. A few years ago when he re-upped, Pedey took the same stance as Sale. With the way they are going to baby their starters, even if they are great, you’re going to need a lot more than just late innings out of the bullpen early in the year.
|
|
|
Post by sarasoxer on Mar 24, 2019 6:38:57 GMT -5
The glass is half full. I think the first half of the year we thresh this out at the cost of absorbing a number of gut wrenching, late game losses. Hopefully the ship steadies late. Glad we signed Sale and that he didn't scrap for every last buck. When is enough, enough....except for those (most) who measure themselves by what their peers get? At some point, you can't outspend your income no matter how hard you try. A few years ago when he re-upped, Pedey took the same stance as Sale. With the way they are going to baby their starters, even if they are great, you’re going to need a lot more than just late innings out of the bullpen early in the year. Well, we'll have to see what they ultimately do with the starters, but point taken especially early on. I think this will be a "bridge year" for the pen. We could cobble together something reasonably viable or brace for fire and fury on this site.
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Mar 24, 2019 7:05:28 GMT -5
I was reading Peter Abraham in the newspaper this morning and it sounds like the 8 man bullpen is set.
It will consist of Barnes, Brasier, Hembree, Workman, Johnson, Velazquez, Thornburg, and the only newcomer Brewer.
They're obviously keeping their depth to start with.
The only roster questions are do they indeed trade or release (or even keep) Leon as the backup catcher over Swihart?
And will Steve Pearce wind up on the DL? If so I'd think Sam Travis would get the call to replace him.
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Mar 24, 2019 7:08:33 GMT -5
The glass is half full. I think the first half of the year we thresh this out at the cost of absorbing a number of gut wrenching, late game losses. Hopefully the ship steadies late. Glad we signed Sale and that he didn't scrap for every last buck. When is enough, enough....except for those (most) who measure themselves by what their peers get? At some point, you can't outspend your income no matter how hard you try. A few years ago when he re-upped, Pedey took the same stance as Sale. With the way they are going to baby their starters, even if they are great, you’re going to need a lot more than just late innings out of the bullpen early in the year. Agreed, which is why Johnson and Velazquez are kind of crucial in the early going. They were so valuable good last year. That's where I am concerned things could go differently this year. If they struggle it puts more pressure on guys like Workman, Hembree, and Brewer. If they're near as good as last year, then the Sox have their steady bridge to their later inning guys.
|
|
|
Post by voiceofreason on Mar 24, 2019 7:51:25 GMT -5
Reading these posts just makes me realize how much I am looking forward to the season starting and defending the WS.
Tough schedule to start with the first 11 games being on the road although I completely understand as the weather in Boston can suck this time of year.
|
|
|
Post by telson13 on Mar 24, 2019 21:38:34 GMT -5
Strategically putting this tweet in this thread. I teresting he went back to the SL, which was a real good pitch for him in college. I also like that he was open-minded about trying the 4FB-CB combo...even if it didn’t work out he’s going to benefit long-term most likely, as he’ll have some experience with both as he continues to grow and adapt. It’s also a peculiar coincidence just how much he resembles Sale, only from the right. Repertoire, build, arm angle...let’s just hope “results” is next.
|
|
|
Post by telson13 on Mar 24, 2019 21:48:31 GMT -5
Reading these posts just makes me realize how much I am looking forward to the season starting and defending the WS. Tough schedule to start with the first 11 games being on the road although I completely understand as the weather in Boston can suck this time of year. Right?!?!?! I think I’m most excited for Beni and Raffy. I think this is the year Beni crashes the scene as a perennial batting title contender and outside MVP candidate (outside because, you know...Trout and Mookie), and Devers I think is primed for a big leap. And that’s before Pedey’s return, JBJ’s new approach, Eovaldi ramping up his dominance, and the litany of other storylines. Lol...and looking forward to that first road loss where the bullpen coughs one up and half the board goes apoplectic. Gonna be some outrageously good posts this year, especially post-repeat when they down the Cubs in the WS.
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on Mar 26, 2019 6:48:28 GMT -5
I think folks are spot on with the Houck takes.
If you told me that Houck, Darwinzon, and Feltman were among the 5 top relievers by the end of the season on the MLB club, I wouldn't bat an eyelash. I wouldn't necessarily predict it, but I wouldn't be surprised.
|
|
ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,923
|
Post by ericmvan on Mar 26, 2019 10:04:39 GMT -5
A guess for roles at the start of the season, in terms of which inning they'll see the most action in:
9: Barnes
8: Brasier 7: Workman 6, inherited runners: Hembree. Don't see the point of changing his role. 6, clean: Thornburg, Brewer (the latter likely to be optioned when Pedey returns, I'm guessing for the home opener)
Mop-up / long / utility: Velazquez
If the Sox projected to be on the playoff cusp, this would be a weakness. But when you have the best lineup and the best rotation in MLB, the bullpen is much less important. (I'd love to do a study where the bWAR excluding bullpen of every team was plotted against the LI at the start of the 7th inning -- you'd look at 8th and 9th as well, obviously, but those will be affected by bullpen quality.) For a team that will have fewer save opportunities than most contenders, this is perfectly adequate to start the season.
The key, of course, is to find one guy who can pitch in at least the 7th, and bump Workman to the 6th. Between Thornburg, Brewer, Lakins, Mejia, Shawaryn, Hernandez, Houck, and Feltman, that seems really likely. And as telson points out, there are unsurprising scenarios where multiple guys from that group are so good that it makes sense to trade Workman and/or Hembree to make room. If enough guys from this group look like they can contribute, then you have the depth to move folks who have been bumped off the ideal depth chart.
It's going to be fun to watch, at three different levels of ball (to begin with).
|
|
|