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Post by jimed14 on Jan 16, 2019 16:37:56 GMT -5
Please stop slamming Roger Clemens! The guys a Red Sox legend and it just feels like you're making it your mission to slam him every chance you get from Roids, now this. You don't like the guy we know. So you're ok with a 10 year affair with a 15 year old that led to her suicide? I loved the guy before he went to the Yankees after he said he'd never play for the Yankees and the sex with a minor.
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 16, 2019 16:41:48 GMT -5
Please stop slamming Roger Clemens! The guys a Red Sox legend and it just feels like you're making it your mission to slam him every chance you get from Roids, now this. You don't like the guy we know. So you're ok with a 10 year affair with a 15 year old that led to her suicide? Come on.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 16, 2019 18:06:29 GMT -5
True the steroids didn't make him faster and it didn't slow down his aging on defense, but in the years 1999 - 2004 his offensive numbers went from being merely superstar spectacular to being video game-like. In terms of the discussion, which is Hall of Fame worthiness, so what? With his credentials established, your argument has to be either "Bonds doesn't have sufficient morals to be in the Hall of Fame" or "I found Barry Bonds aesthetically displeasing because of his big head." Which... not great Hall of Fame arguments. This is turning into something unanticipated so I must not have made myself clear - so sorry about that. Barry Bonds was a slam dunk no doubt about 1st ballot HOFer if he didn't do the roid. Now he's talked about as if he's the same offensively as Ted Williams or Babe Ruth. My point is that his cheating enabled him to go to an even higher level offensively. He would have been in the HOF for being a great all around player, including speed and defense. His cheating put his numbers up in the Ted Williams/Babe Ruth stratosphere, something that as great as Barry Bonds was prior to the roids - he wasn't quite on that level offensively. That does not mean that pre-steroids Bonds wasn't a sure thing HOFer. As far as being HOF worthy - that's a moral issue, not a performance issue. His numbers prior to the roids were plenty HOF worthy - is that even up for debate? The man cheated - that's the issue. Just like it is with Clemens who was a HOFer before he took his roids.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 17, 2019 0:42:19 GMT -5
Please stop slamming Roger Clemens! The guys a Red Sox legend and it just feels like you're making it your mission to slam him every chance you get from Roids, now this. You don't like the guy we know. So you're ok with a 10 year affair with a 15 year old that led to her suicide? I loved the guy before he went to the Yankees after he said he'd never play for the Yankees and the sex with a minor. I wasn't going to respond because this is a crazy post, but I just needed to add actually facts. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindy_McCreadywww.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/mindy-mccready-weeps-confirms-affair-roger-clemens-article-1.283955In her own worlds 10 year relationship that didn't turn intimate untill she moved to Nashville and became a Country Star. She didn't move to Nashville till she was 18. Clemens called her a friend, she said it was a relationship. The newspapers sources back up her claims. As you see on the wiki page at the end, dealing with a con man and her babies father killed himself one month before she did. By all accounts Clemens tried to help her over the 10 years and had absolutely nothing to do with her death that happened 12 years after they ended it. She went on to have two kids, but a ton of legal trouble, substances abuse problems, and even a sex tape. I just don't know how these facts turned into sex with a minor and this was the cause of her suicide.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 17, 2019 8:29:09 GMT -5
So you're ok with a 10 year affair with a 15 year old that led to her suicide? I loved the guy before he went to the Yankees after he said he'd never play for the Yankees and the sex with a minor. I wasn't going to respond because this is a crazy post, but I just needed to add actually facts. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindy_McCreadywww.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/mindy-mccready-weeps-confirms-affair-roger-clemens-article-1.283955In her own worlds 10 year relationship that didn't turn intimate untill she moved to Nashville and became a Country Star. She didn't move to Nashville till she was 18. Clemens called her a friend, she said it was a relationship. The newspapers sources back up her claims. As you see on the wiki page at the end, dealing with a con man and her babies father killed himself one month before she did. By all accounts Clemens tried to help her over the 10 years and had absolutely nothing to do with her death that happened 12 years after they ended it. She went on to have two kids, but a ton of legal trouble, substances abuse problems, and even a sex tape. I just don't know how these facts turned into sex with a minor and this was the cause of her suicide. He was a 28 year old man when they met. She was 15. And most charitable version of where things when from there is that they didn't actually have sex until the minute that it wasn't punishable by law. And then she issues later in her life? Yeah, no shit. And yes, I know that the HOF is full of terrible people, it's about on-field accomplishments, all that stuff. I get that that's the standard. I'm just less and less comfortable with that standard over time. All of which probably leads into a discussion that doesn't belong in this thread.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 17, 2019 8:50:35 GMT -5
He was a 28 year old man when they met. She was 15. And most charitable version of where things when from there is that they didn't actually have sex until the minute that it wasn't punishable by law. And then she issues later in her life? Yeah, no shit. Well if their relationship didn't start until she was 18 he didn't do anything against the law and it's not really up to us to pretend being psychologists on a case we know next to nothing about.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 17, 2019 8:55:06 GMT -5
He was a 28 year old man when they met. She was 15. And most charitable version of where things when from there is that they didn't actually have sex until the minute that it wasn't punishable by law. And then she issues later in her life? Yeah, no shit. Well if their relationship didn't start until she was 18 he didn't do anything against the law and it's not really up to us to pretend being psychologists on a case we know next to nothing about. A 28 year old man takes a 15 year old girl back to his hotel for the night and you think you need to be a psychologist to figure out if that's cool or not? Anyone would be freaked out by that if it was their kid, and rightfully so. Hell, you could lose to a democrat in an Alabama senate race for pulling that kind of stuff.
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 17, 2019 9:26:11 GMT -5
Anyway, back to the HOF ballot stuff. Going through my own fake ballot, I think I actually have Ramirez as my #11. Obviously you could go a lot of different ways on some of the players here, but my top 10 would be (not necessarily in this order): Bonds Clemens Halladay Rivera Mussina Schilling Helton Martinez Rolen Walker
I could be convinced to leave Schilling or Helton off for Ramirez.
It's still crazy what a logjam there is, though I would probably be a no on everyone outside that top 11 at this point. Maybe three years ago I had a list of 18 guys who I'd have voted for. A bunch got in and a couple others fell off.
EDIT: Like Hatfield said, at least three guys are coming off that list this year, and maybe four with Mussina, with Jeter being the only new guy who I consider a strong candidate next year. That's going to help Schilling and Walker, as well as Rolen, whose going to start getting the Raines/Walker/Martinez boost from the Sabermetric writers.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 17, 2019 10:59:47 GMT -5
A 28 year old man takes a 15 year old girl back to his hotel for the night and you think you need to be a psychologist to figure out if that's cool or not? Anyone would be freaked out by that if it was their kid, and rightfully so. Hell, you could lose to a democrat in an Alabama senate race for pulling that kind of stuff. I'm not saying it's cool or not, I'm not talking about the moral side of the issue. Like I said, IF their sexual relationship didn't start until she was 18, which is somewhat possible, Clemens didn't break any law. IF. The second part of my post is regarding the implied correlation that her suicide was caused by getting The Rocket which is just bullsh*t. Did you personally know her in order to point out her issues were caused by that instead of anything else in her rather complicated life?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 17, 2019 11:49:36 GMT -5
Let's put further McCready stuff in Throwdown. Points have been made but we don't need to debate the merits of that topic in here. Thanks.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 17, 2019 16:10:44 GMT -5
In the midst of the Clemens talk, I’m surprised no one brought up John Wettland. Unless, they did and I missed it.
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HOF Talk
Jan 19, 2019 11:24:49 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by FenwayFanatic on Jan 19, 2019 11:24:49 GMT -5
Edgar, Mo, Halladay, Schilling, McGriff, Walker, Mussina, Rolen, Kent, Jones would be my ballot.
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Post by soxjim on Jan 21, 2019 11:43:14 GMT -5
I have 11 for 10 spots. Bonds, Clemens, Halladay, MArtinez, McGriff, Mussina, Rivera, Rolen, Schilling, Sheffield, and Walker.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 21, 2019 14:57:54 GMT -5
I'd go with Rivera, Martinez, Halladay, Mussina, Schilling, McGriff, Walker, Rolen, Kent, and Jones
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 21, 2019 16:06:10 GMT -5
EDIT: Like Hatfield said, at least three guys are coming off that list this year, and maybe four with Mussina, with Jeter being the only new guy who I consider a strong candidate next year. That's going to help Schilling and Walker, as well as Rolen, whose going to start getting the Raines/Walker/Martinez boost from the Sabermetric writers. I'm kind of baffled by Rolen's lack of support. I guess it's a little bit of the Dwight Evans thing where Rolen was a great all-around player who didn't didn't have one exceptional skill... except that he freakin' did, he won eight gold gloves! Probably even deserved most of them!
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HOF Talk
Jan 21, 2019 17:33:55 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 21, 2019 17:33:55 GMT -5
One thing that has made me come around on a few guys was subscribing to Baseball Reference's email newsletter. During the offseason they've been highlighting one or two HOF candidates each day. Probably brought me around on Walker and maybe Rolen.
I'd go Bonds, Clemens, Schilling, Mussina, Martinez, Halladay, Rivera, Ramirez, Walker, Rolen. Given more room, I'd consider Sheffield, McGriff, Helton, and Jones. Would consider putting McGriff on a real ballot since it's his last year.
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HOF Talk
Jan 21, 2019 17:34:59 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by FenwayFanatic on Jan 21, 2019 17:34:59 GMT -5
Seems like the main question is whether or not Mussina gets in, right?
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HOF Talk
Jan 21, 2019 17:37:54 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 21, 2019 17:37:54 GMT -5
Seems like the main question is whether or not Mussina gets in, right? For this year? Yeah, but it doesn't seem likely to me. Players' vote totals tend to go down on the secret ballots. Three-man class this year, Moose and Jeter locks next year with the potential for more logjam breakup.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 21, 2019 18:29:23 GMT -5
I really don't understand how Mussina isn't in already. 83 fWAR, 82 bWAR (average HOF=73.4), 63.8 JAWS (average HOF 61.8), Hall of Fame Monitor 121(likely HOF=100), Hall of Fame Standards 52 (average HOF 50)
The only thing against him is a slightly low 7 year peak WAR, but he more than makes up for it with longevity.
I'm not sure how or why someone either leaves him off the ballot when not filling theirs completely or why they think there are 10 better options.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 21, 2019 20:45:59 GMT -5
I really don't understand how Mussina isn't in already. 83 fWAR, 82 bWAR (average HOF=73.4), 63.8 JAWS (average HOF 61.8), Hall of Fame Monitor 121(likely HOF=100), Hall of Fame Standards 52 (average HOF 50) The only thing against him is a slightly low 7 year peak WAR, but he more than makes up for it with longevity. I'm not sure how or why someone either leaves him off the ballot when not filling theirs completely or why they think there are 10 better options. He also pitched 140ish innings of postseason baseball with a 3.42 era, better than his career regular season mark. Not having 300 wins has been a road block for a lot of starters in recent history, but even then, he has 270. Honestly I think it’s just that he was kind of boring.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 21, 2019 21:46:57 GMT -5
Only one top-3 Cy finish, wasn't a huge strikeout guy, and spent his prime on an Orioles team that only contended a couple times. He was just consistently and quietly very good - finished between 4th and 6th in the Cy voting 8 times.
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Post by soxjim on Jan 21, 2019 23:14:00 GMT -5
I really don't understand how Mussina isn't in already. 83 fWAR, 82 bWAR (average HOF=73.4), 63.8 JAWS (average HOF 61.8), Hall of Fame Monitor 121(likely HOF=100), Hall of Fame Standards 52 (average HOF 50) The only thing against him is a slightly low 7 year peak WAR, but he more than makes up for it with longevity. I'm not sure how or why someone either leaves him off the ballot when not filling theirs completely or why they think there are 10 better options. I would put in Mussina but I don't understand why Schilling isn't in (maybe his mouth?). Other than HOf Standards and 7 year peak everything else is above. With Hall of Fame Monitor it says if you go above 130 you are a virtual lock and Schilling is at 171. Schillings post season is 133 innings in 19 games with an ERA of 2.23. The fact he was the number 1 starter over Johnson and Pedro is darn good. I realize Pedro was not peak. But how they won it both times he was the number 1 starter taking down the Yanks - and in Historic fashion. And he did at the risk of ending his career. Has over 3,000 strikeouts along with the highest strikeout to walk ratio.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Jan 21, 2019 23:15:48 GMT -5
Seems like the main question is whether or not Mussina gets in, right? For this year? Yeah, but it doesn't seem likely to me. Players' vote totals tend to go down on the secret ballots. Three-man class this year, Moose and Jeter locks next year with the potential for more logjam breakup. For this year, yeah. I know the vote goes down on the secret ballots but seems like he still has somewhat of a chance. I'd like to see it just because it seems like he is a lock to get it eventually anyway and Larry Walker has his last chance next year.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 21, 2019 23:33:48 GMT -5
I really don't understand how Mussina isn't in already. 83 fWAR, 82 bWAR (average HOF=73.4), 63.8 JAWS (average HOF 61.8), Hall of Fame Monitor 121(likely HOF=100), Hall of Fame Standards 52 (average HOF 50) The only thing against him is a slightly low 7 year peak WAR, but he more than makes up for it with longevity. I'm not sure how or why someone either leaves him off the ballot when not filling theirs completely or why they think there are 10 better options. I would put in Mussina but I don't understand why Schilling isn't in (maybe his mouth?). Other than HOf Standards and 7 year peak everything else is above. With Hall of Fame Monitor it says if you go above 130 you are a virtual lock and Schilling is at 171. Schillings post season is 133 innings in 19 games with an ERA of 2.23. The fact he was the number 1 starter over Johnson and Pedro is darn good. I realize Pedro was not peak. But how they won it both times he was the number 1 starter taking down the Yanks - and in Historic fashion. And he did at the risk of ending his career. Has over 3,000 strikeouts along with the highest strikeout to walk ratio. His blow-hard-ness and I think 38 Studios doesn't help him either. That's a big deal to a lot of people. And honestly, the answer for a lot of these guys is probably the logjam as well. There are currently 217 public ballots and 121 of them listed 10 guys. Thibodaux keeps track of the guys voters would've voted for with more room, and for example, Rolen lost at least 10 votes because guys didn't have room. Meanwhile, on Mussina, the current projection basically has him as a coin flip:
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 22, 2019 7:17:52 GMT -5
Only one top-3 Cy finish, wasn't a huge strikeout guy, and spent his prime on an Orioles team that only contended a couple times. He was just consistently and quietly very good - finished between 4th and 6th in the Cy voting 8 times. And that's kind of the voters doubling down on their previous mistakes, right? Mussina would already be in if he hadn't been screwed out of the 2001 Cy Young. And he would've won the Cy if Carl Everett hadn't gotten that single to break up his perfect game in the bottom of the 9th that year. I think as pitcher wins have gotten less important, old-timey writers have tried to circle their wagons and focus on their importance more. Catfish Hunter and Don Drysdale both were definitely worse than Mussina, and won fewer games, and both got in. And Mussina has the most wins by any pitcher who debuted after 1990. Anyway, as the next generation of pitchers starts making the ballot, it's going to make Mussina's numbers look a lot more impressive. Halladay is getting in with 203 wins, and I'd put Kershaw in today, and he's only at 153 (and I wouldn't be shocked at all if he has less than 50 left in him).
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