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Post by James Dunne on Sept 13, 2019 12:32:14 GMT -5
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 13, 2019 12:36:54 GMT -5
What's interesting about Ohtani right now is that he hasn't thrown anything close to a starter's workload for three years now. Even if they want to keep doing the two-way thing, they can't be banking him for much more than 100 innings next year, and maybe it's a lot less than that. So how do you manage him? Reliever? Super-opener? And does this whole thing work better if you just abandon the idea of using him as a traditional starter? Super interesting situation, and they may be developing the blueprint for future two-way guys. That's a interesting idea, but you're really shooting darts when you want him to pitch versus play the field versus needing him to pitch that day and needing him to hit that day. Game to game you wouldn't be knowing where to put him in because you don't know how each game will play out. It could be a blueprint, or it could be a disaster that no other team tries again because they don't know how to go about it because no one has ever done it before.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 13, 2019 12:37:00 GMT -5
I think 2 way players (or even just the idea of them) are a lot less valuable with an extra roster spot starting next season.
It just seems like a way to make a player never realize their full potential in either hitting or pitching.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 13, 2019 12:40:43 GMT -5
Mock me all you want, but this is all about Ohtani playing more, not just doing both DHing and pitching. Which you know, people don't seem to be grasping.
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Post by James Dunne on Sept 13, 2019 13:02:21 GMT -5
The way you breezily throw around words like "proves" and "causes" and the way you make definitive statements about injuries and the physical condition of players that you know very little about is inordinately frustrating to everyone. If my attempts to diffuse that with a little levity and humor frustrate you so, I don't know what to tell you.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Sept 13, 2019 13:09:22 GMT -5
I find it amazing how many conclusions we can come to from a sample size of ONE.
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Post by orion09 on Sept 13, 2019 13:39:19 GMT -5
Ohtani has a history of being an injury-prone player, dating back to his time in Japan.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to suggest that pitching and hitting at a major league level might place a greater strain on his body than just one of those alone. Added reps, added workouts, greater fatigue=greater chance of an injury, etc.
FWIW I would venture to say this doesn’t include TJ, which is probably a throwing-specific injury. But Ohtani has a history of lower-half injuries (ankle, hamstring, knee) dating back to the beginning of his career in Japan. That’s the kind of thing I would worry about with the added workload/stress of playing two roles at the highest level.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 13, 2019 14:37:40 GMT -5
FWIW I would venture to say this doesn’t include TJ, which is probably a throwing-specific injury. Exactly, so him not DH'ing would do absolutely nothing to make it less likely to have arm troubles, which is the only reason this conversation went on as long as it did.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 13, 2019 14:38:55 GMT -5
The way you breezily throw around words like "proves" and "causes" and the way you make definitive statements about injuries and the physical condition of players that you know very little about is inordinately frustrating to everyone. If my attempts to diffuse that with a little levity and humor frustrate you so, I don't know what to tell you. There's a difference between mocking and humor. Huge difference.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 13, 2019 14:42:23 GMT -5
FWIW I would venture to say this doesn’t include TJ, which is probably a throwing-specific injury. Exactly, so him not DH'ing would do absolutely nothing to make it less likely to have arm troubles, which is the only reason this conversation went on as long as it did. It's like you ignored the rest of his post on purpose. The point he made, was the same exact point I was making.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 13, 2019 17:35:10 GMT -5
Exactly, so him not DH'ing would do absolutely nothing to make it less likely to have arm troubles, which is the only reason this conversation went on as long as it did. It's like you ignored the rest of his post on purpose. The point he made, was the same exact point I was making. You're using Tommy John surgery as a good reason why Ohtani shouldn't be DH'ing. SMH that you can't get how illogical that is.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 13, 2019 17:45:24 GMT -5
It's like you ignored the rest of his post on purpose. The point he made, was the same exact point I was making. You're using Tommy John surgery as a good reason why Ohtani shouldn't be DH'ing. SMH that you can't get how illogical that is. I'm using the multiple injuries as to why using Ohtani as a 2 way player could be a huge mistake. My original post bringing the whole subject up was about the knee injury. SMH
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Sept 14, 2019 8:07:39 GMT -5
Just for fun.
Tim Tebow's final AAA numbers.
.163/.240/.255/.495
Impressive IsoD.
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Post by James Dunne on Sept 14, 2019 8:14:54 GMT -5
Saw him a bunch and he was completely overmatched by anyone who could get 92 over the plate.
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Post by manfred on Sept 14, 2019 8:52:05 GMT -5
You're using Tommy John surgery as a good reason why Ohtani shouldn't be DH'ing. SMH that you can't get how illogical that is. I'm using the multiple injuries as to why using Ohtani as a 2 way player could be a huge mistake. My original post bringing the whole subject up was about the knee injury. SMH Do we know what caused this knee injury? Trauma? Wear? Underlying structure? I just want to point out that pitchers don’t sit on their asses on the days they don’t pitch. They run, lift, throw.... so I’ll throw out a counter theory that I can’t prove: using off days on motions (swinging) that stress their bodies differently might be good for them (like alternating gym days). We used to have to run laps around the outfield on days we didn’t pitch. I wish I could sit around and DH.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Sept 14, 2019 10:05:26 GMT -5
Saw him a bunch and he was completely overmatched by anyone who could get 92 over the plate. I'm increasingly sympathetic to Tim Tebow as a victim of the Tim Tebow Industrial Complex.
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,941
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Post by ericmvan on Sept 14, 2019 21:45:17 GMT -5
This escaped my attention and maybe yours, too, but we actually have a division race!
The Cubs closed to within 3 of the Cardinals today. They play 4 games next weekend in Chicago and then in St. Louis the last 3 days of the season.
Meanwhile, the W/C races remain worth checking out nightly. The Indians are fading as I expected (even before the Ramirez injury), which makes it suck that we went 2-5 against the Twins and Yankees when we needed to go 5 and 2.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Sept 16, 2019 0:47:11 GMT -5
FWIW I would venture to say this doesn’t include TJ, which is probably a throwing-specific injury. Exactly, so him not DH'ing would do absolutely nothing to make it less likely to have arm troubles, which is the only reason this conversation went on as long as it did. I think a more apt way of looking at Ohtani rather than say, pitching is going to affect his knees or hitting is going to cause him TJ is that, is his 2-way skillset worth the compiling injuries he might get from both? Is it worth him missing time at DH if he sustains a pitching injury or missing time pitching from a hitter's injury? One might have very little to do with the other, but the injuries from one can impact the other.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Sept 16, 2019 10:55:32 GMT -5
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 16, 2019 11:28:25 GMT -5
It's a shame. I think in the year of the liveliest ball, he might have been the only player, at least in the AL, to reach the 50 mark. I think Alonso has a good shot of making it to 50 in the NL. What's interesting to me is how this varies from the steroid era in which even though there were a (high?) number of cheaters, the obvious ones stood out with their ridiculous amount of HRs, their nintendo numbers, while this year, EVERYBODY is hitting HRs, but nobody really has nintendo numbers, so maybe the number of cheaters is on the very low side? Perhaps it really is just the ball.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Sept 16, 2019 13:37:17 GMT -5
It's a shame. I think in the year of the liveliest ball, he might have been the only player, at least in the AL, to reach the 50 mark. I think Alonso has a good shot of making it to 50 in the NL. What's interesting to me is how this varies from the steroid era in which even though there were a (high?) number of cheaters, the obvious ones stood out with their ridiculous amount of HRs, their nintendo numbers, while this year, EVERYBODY is hitting HRs, but nobody really has nintendo numbers, so maybe the number of cheaters is on the very low side? Perhaps it really is just the ball. I think it's just a talent compression thing. The difference between the best player and the worst player in the league is smaller than it used to be. The thing everyone likes to forget about the "steroid era" (or really never noticed in the first place) is that the peak of the peak, when most of those true videogame seasons happened, was in the immediate wake of a two-team expansion. The best players stood out more because the league had to suck in so much garbage in order to field two more teams. Ever since then, the flow of talent has increased (improved development and scouting, plus good old fashioned population growth), while the league has stayed the same size, creating a more uniform talent pool. A great illustration of this is if you look at peak Pedro versus peak Kershaw in a league-adjusted context. Kershaw at his peak was about twice as good as the average pitcher, while Pedro was closer to three times as good. And while I do think peak Pedro is (pretty easily) the better pitcher, I also think a big part of that is that the league average pitcher in Kershaw's prime was a lot better than in Pedro's. Pedro came up when there were no pitch counts and lots of Jose Lima. Everyone threw 130 pitch starts in A-ball and totally ruined their arm before they even got to the majors and no one thought a thing of it. If you had three guys in your bullpen who threw mid-upper 90s, it was the stuff of legends. Now it's table stakes. I went back and looked at all the guys Bonds hit home runs off of in 2001. It's amazing, everyone should go look for themselves. He hit one off a 33 year old Pat Rapp, who that season threw 170 innings, struck out 82, and walked 71. That's a whole different sport, and half the list is guys like that.
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Sept 16, 2019 22:04:19 GMT -5
This escaped my attention and maybe yours, too, but we actually have a division race! The Cubs closed to within 3 of the Cardinals today. They play 4 games next weekend in Chicago and then in St. Louis the last 3 days of the season. Meanwhile, the W/C races remain worth checking out nightly. The Indians are fading as I expected (even before the Ramirez injury), which makes it suck that we went 2-5 against the Twins and Yankees when we needed to go 5 and 2.
Yes, and Nationals are in danger of missing the wildcard game. Lost again tonight. Combined with wins by MIL & Cubs.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Sept 17, 2019 2:04:35 GMT -5
Scott Merkin @scottmerkin ·
Giolito has mild lat strain. Will not pitch again this season
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 17, 2019 8:38:28 GMT -5
Is it bad that I had no idea the Cardinals were leading that division?
Also, we're on pace to have four 100-loss teams, and the Jays are going to make a run at being a fifth and setting a new record, breaking the one held by 2002. We might have double-digit 90-loss teams.
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Post by James Dunne on Sept 17, 2019 8:45:56 GMT -5
Is it bad that I had no idea the Cardinals were leading that division? Also, we're on pace to have four 100-loss teams, and the Jays are going to make a run at being a fifth and setting a new record, breaking the one held by 2002. We might have double-digit 90-loss teams. Unless Texas makes a semi-decent run or the Cleveland collapse gets even more brutal the Red Sox are going to be the only AL team with a win total in the 80s.
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