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5/30-6/2 Red Sox @ Yankees Series Thread
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Post by incandenza on Jun 1, 2019 10:41:34 GMT -5
Yeah I mean, the next 2 games are MUST win if you want to save a chance to win the division later in the year. Being behind 2 teams and 8-10 losses back of BOTH of them is pretty hard to come back from. You can't expect to leapfrog both in this scenario. As far as I'm concerned, Cora better be chasing wins the next 2 games or we're going back to talking about trading Betts all over again possibly. There's officially 5 teams within 2 games of the second wild card position for context on how much competition you have there.
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Post by incandenza on Jun 1, 2019 10:51:58 GMT -5
Yeah I mean, the next 2 games are MUST win if you want to save a chance to win the division later in the year. Being behind 2 teams and 8-10 losses back of BOTH of them is pretty hard to come back from. You can't expect to leapfrog both in this scenario. As far as I'm concerned, Cora better be chasing wins the next 2 games or we're going back to talking about trading Betts all over again possibly. There's officially 5 teams within 2 games of the second wild card position for context on how much competition you have there. If I could figure out how to embed gifs, I would embed the one of Woody Harrelson in No Country For Old Men, in cowboy hat and wearing an expression of appalled horror, saying to Anton Chigurrh, "Do you have any idea how crazy you sound?"
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Jun 1, 2019 11:42:49 GMT -5
I would probably concede any division title at this point.....so you play for the wild card and take your shot. It is more difficult this year...the boys aren't the hunters...they are the hunted. IMO, part of why they played so good last year was because of the playoff failures the previous 2 years. That is what where these other clubs are now
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Post by Coreno on Jun 1, 2019 11:57:36 GMT -5
If I could figure out how to embed gifs, I would embed the one of Woody Harrelson in No Country For Old Men, in cowboy hat and wearing an expression of appalled horror, saying to Anton Chigurrh, "Do you have any idea how crazy you sound?"
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Post by dirtdog on Jun 1, 2019 11:58:19 GMT -5
Steve Pearce was placed on the 10-day injured list with a lower-back strain, so Travis will come up to take his place as a right-handed bat off the bench. He could get some starts against left-handed pitchers in the short term, and may even get some starts against righties as Mitch Moreland is also on the IL with a minor back injury. Travis was hitting .251/.359/.371 with three home runs in 49 games at Triple-A.
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Post by telson13 on Jun 1, 2019 12:48:04 GMT -5
Yeah I mean, the next 2 games are MUST win if you want to save a chance to win the division later in the year. Being behind 2 teams and 8-10 losses back of BOTH of them is pretty hard to come back from. You can't expect to leapfrog both in this scenario. As far as I'm concerned, Cora better be chasing wins the next 2 games or we're going back to talking about trading Betts all over again possibly. There's officially 5 teams within 2 games of the second wild card position for context on how much competition you have there. Even if the Sox get swept there's no real reason to deal Betts. The Sox need to sign him. It's that simple and they know it. They need to re-up JD Martinez, too. The Red Sox basically have the same team as last year and if they hold onto Betts and bring back Martinez, they will lose Porcello, but beyond basically the same team. In scenario A, you have this team maxing out everything you can dream of - that's the 2018 Red Sox. In scenario B, you have this team disappointing and boring the hell out of you - that's the 2019 Red Sox. In scenario C, you probably have a team in the middle of A and B - probably winning 95 games on talent alone - that would probably be the 2020 Red Sox. If you trade away Betts, you likely undo scenario C. And if you sign Betts long-term, the Sox can continue to compete at a high level for the foreseeable future. I think signing Mookie is a pretty clear “should,” although the terms will dictate how “necessary” it is; most likely it’s an excess-value deal but years matter. I think it’s a mistake to call re-upping JDM a “need,” because there are other options, but yeah, that’s a pretty clear “should” too. The end of Panda’s deal and exit of Porcello means some $ savings, but those are largely gone to Mookie (hopefully), Bogey’s extension, raises in arb, and maybe re-signing Holt. I’d argue that right behind those two is the emergence of Duran as s viable CF, such that they can move JBJ for something in the offseason and save $10M more. Then we can start talking about getting under some thresholds.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 1, 2019 12:49:57 GMT -5
I would probably concede any division title at this point.....so you play for the wild card and take your shot. It is more difficult this year...the boys aren't the hunters...they are the hunted. IMO, part of why they played so good last year was because of the playoff failures the previous 2 years. That is what where these other clubs are nowExactly. Especially that last sentence. Failure drives teams. A satisfied team can play complacent baseball, which is what the Sox have done this year. I have a feeling that hunger will return next season. Hunger might not be the right word, but whatever that word is, it's missing this year. Last year's Red Sox were like a bunch of sharks. If the other team gave them an opening, they took it. If the other team made a mistake, the Sox pounced, like they were blood-thirsty. It's not there this season to date.
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Post by telson13 on Jun 1, 2019 12:51:21 GMT -5
Yeah I mean, the next 2 games are MUST win if you want to save a chance to win the division later in the year. Being behind 2 teams and 8-10 losses back of BOTH of them is pretty hard to come back from. You can't expect to leapfrog both in this scenario. As far as I'm concerned, Cora better be chasing wins the next 2 games or we're going back to talking about trading Betts all over again possibly. There's officially 5 teams within 2 games of the second wild card position for context on how much competition you have there. Even if the Sox get swept there's no real reason to deal Betts. The Sox need to sign him. It's that simple and they know it. They need to re-up JD Martinez, too. The Red Sox basically have the same team as last year and if they hold onto Betts and bring back Martinez, they will lose Porcello, but beyond basically the same team. In scenario A, you have this team maxing out everything you can dream of - that's the 2018 Red Sox. In scenario B, you have this team disappointing and boring the hell out of you - that's the 2019 Red Sox. In scenario C, you probably have a team in the middle of A and B - probably winning 95 games on talent alone - that would probably be the 2020 Red Sox. If you trade away Betts, you likely undo scenario C. And if you sign Betts long-term, the Sox can continue to compete at a high level for the foreseeable future. Btw, LOL to scenario B cuz it’s really pretty true. This team hasn’t been much fun to watch, beyond the emergence of Rafi, Barnes, and Chavis and Walden. But lots of underperformance including some very lackluster “teamwork.” There’s not a lot of picking eachother up, but plenty of letting down. Rick Astley would never do that.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 1, 2019 13:15:13 GMT -5
Even if the Sox get swept there's no real reason to deal Betts. The Sox need to sign him. It's that simple and they know it. They need to re-up JD Martinez, too. The Red Sox basically have the same team as last year and if they hold onto Betts and bring back Martinez, they will lose Porcello, but beyond basically the same team. In scenario A, you have this team maxing out everything you can dream of - that's the 2018 Red Sox. In scenario B, you have this team disappointing and boring the hell out of you - that's the 2019 Red Sox. In scenario C, you probably have a team in the middle of A and B - probably winning 95 games on talent alone - that would probably be the 2020 Red Sox. If you trade away Betts, you likely undo scenario C. And if you sign Betts long-term, the Sox can continue to compete at a high level for the foreseeable future. Btw, LOL to scenario B cuz it’s really pretty true. This team hasn’t been much fun to watch, beyond the emergence of Rafi, Barnes, and Chavis and Walden. But lots of underperformance including some very lackluster “teamwork.” There’s not a lot of picking eachother up, but plenty of letting down. Rick Astley would never do that. I wasn't expecting a 108 win encore, but I thought a competitive team that won 95 - 100 games was a realistic expectation. The team is very talented, and the funny thing is if you look at last year's team and ask, what weaknesses did they have? Well, catching. Look at Vazquez blossom in 2019. How about 2b? Look at Chavis come up sooner than expected and take control of his call-up. Bullpen depth? Well, 2 out of 3 ain't bad. Yet, the Sox are mired in mediocrity. What strikes me is how the Sox set the tone against the Yankees. I thought the 4th inning of Game 1 against the Yankees in that August showdown set the tone. Down 4-0 they rally. JBJ does this incredible slide to score a run that he shouldn't have scored. Benintendi stole Jonathan Holder blind and so disrupted him he hung a pitch to Pearce which was a 3-run go-ahead HR. If that wasn't deflating enough, they tacked on another 4 runs in an inning where it felt like a carousel spinning endlessly. There's been none of that this year. Last night it was Nunez getting stupidly picked off. The Red Sox aren't taking it to teams this year, like they did last year. Last year, the Sox made grand statements. Not so, this year. They look like they're really not ready. I do expect the Red Sox to play better because I think they're too talented not to, but I don't expect the Red Sox to go far if they make the playoffs. I hope I'm wrong. I hope this is the mediocrity part of the season the Sox had in 2004 before they woke up and realized that the season was on the line and it was time to play the season with passion. There's been none of that urgency this year. Frankly, they've been boring to watch and quite disappointing and at times flat out embarrassing. I've enjoyed seeing Chavis come up and Devers blossom, but.... You can dissect the stats every which way but sometimes those things just don't get captured in the stats. I mean the Sox have mainly been healthy. Scary to thing how bad they'd be if they had the kind of crippling injuries the Yankees have had - and they thrived despite them. Not so, the Sox this year. I do think if they get sufficiently embarrassed this season, if they don't accomplish much this year, it will probably drive them next year. I do think that they'll need to re-sign JDM. He's the centerpiece of this lineup. He's been what Ortiz was to them. They can't easily replace that - even with Devers blossoming.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 1, 2019 13:27:19 GMT -5
If I could figure out how to embed gifs, I would embed the one of Woody Harrelson in No Country For Old Men, in cowboy hat and wearing an expression of appalled horror, saying to Anton Chigurrh, "Do you have any idea how crazy you sound?" Not crazy. You want full value for Betts, you trade him this deadline. If you don't you're at best hoping for the Goldsmidt value of a trade with one year left.
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Post by Guidas on Jun 1, 2019 13:39:17 GMT -5
Steve Pearce was placed on the 10-day injured list with a lower-back strain, so Travis will come up to take his place as a right-handed bat off the bench. He could get some starts against left-handed pitchers in the short term, and may even get some starts against righties as Mitch Moreland is also on the IL with a minor back injury. Travis was hitting .251/.359/.371 with three home runs in 49 games at Triple-A. Travis is not an MLB player, and I don’t even know if he can play at replacement level, but it is what it is. Personally, I would’ve called up Hernandez and put Chavis on first til Moreland comes back. At that point I DFA Nuñez, and use Chavis as the first baseman against lefties, and Hernandez as utility guy,/second baseman vs. lefties.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jun 1, 2019 13:51:05 GMT -5
Steve Pearce was placed on the 10-day injured list with a lower-back strain, so Travis will come up to take his place as a right-handed bat off the bench. He could get some starts against left-handed pitchers in the short term, and may even get some starts against righties as Mitch Moreland is also on the IL with a minor back injury. Travis was hitting .251/.359/.371 with three home runs in 49 games at Triple-A. Travis is not an MLB player, and I don’t even know if he can play at replacement level, but it is what it is. Personally, I would’ve called up Hernandez and put Chavis on first til Moreland comes back. At that point I DFA Nuñez, and use Chavis as the first baseman against lefties, and Hernandez as utility guy,/second baseman vs. lefties. Honestly, I like keeping Chavis at 2B. He needs his reps there and there's no one who is really worth moving him. This might be stupid, but why not give Josh Ockimey a look? His OBP and SLG have been awesome at AAA despite the poor BA.
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
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Post by ericmvan on Jun 1, 2019 14:01:43 GMT -5
Sox xwOBA last night: .248. That's not including Betts IBB, which was barely intentional.
Yankee xwOBA: .247.
However, that's misleading. Sale was .235, but gave up a .349 wOBA. (Completely unsurprising to me.) Josh Taylor doesn't pitch if it isn't for the insanely awful luck both on balls in play and sequencing, and he gave up .293 to 3 batters. Happ gave up a .228 xwOBA and .249 wOBA. I scored every pitch and I said out loud to my housemate "this game should be tied." (She's smart enough to reply "it's baseball. You know this happens.")
The Yankees gave up 5 hard-hit balls that were expected hits, and the Sox had a BABIP of .250. Devers' homer, Martinez off of Ottavino right at Gardner, Bradley off of Kahnle, Vazquez immediately following right at Hicks, and Betts leading off against Britton right at Torres.
The Sox gave up four, and the Yankees had a BABIP of 1.000. Sanchez in the second, LeMahieu and Hicks in the span of three batters in the 3rd, and LeMahhieu's homer. And of course, the two that they managed to cluster came immediately after two super cheap hits.
You can say that, hey, once Sale gave up two ridiculously cheap hits in the same inning, he has to bear down and not then give up, with two outs, half of his the hard-hit balls of the evening. But it doesn't work that way. Nobody has that skill. There are times when a guy bears down and pitches out a jam like that and times he doesn't. It's random.
It counts as a loss. It doesn't supply much evidence that the team isn't good enough to beat the Yankees.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jun 1, 2019 14:15:09 GMT -5
Sox xwOBA last night: .248. That's not including Betts IBB, which was barely intentional.
Yankee xwOBA: .247. However, that's misleading. Sale was .235, but gave up a .349 wOBA. (Completely unsurprising to me.) Josh Taylor doesn't pitch if it isn't for the insanely awful luck both on balls in play and sequencing, and he gave up .293 to 3 batters. Happ gave up a .228 xwOBA and .249 wOBA. I scored every pitch and I said out loud to my housemate "this game should be tied." (She's smart enough to reply "it's baseball. You know this happens.") The Yankees gave up 5 hard-hit balls that were expected hits, and the Sox had a BABIP of .250. Devers' homer, Martinez off of Ottavino right at Gardner, Bradley off of Kahnle, Vazquez immediately following right at Hicks, and Betts leading off against Britton right at Torres. The Sox gave up four, and the Yankees had a BABIP of 1.000. Sanchez in the second, LeMahieu and Hicks in the span of three batters in the 3rd, and LeMahhieu's homer. And of course, the two that they managed to cluster came immediately after two super cheap hits.
You can say that, hey, once Sale gave up two ridiculously cheap hits in the same inning, he has to bear down and not then give up, with two outs, half of his the hard-hit balls of the evening. But it doesn't work that way. Nobody has that skill. There are times when a guy bears down and pitches out a jam like that and times he doesn't. It's random.
It counts as a loss. It doesn't supply much evidence that the team isn't good enough to beat the Yankees.
Don't mean to pollute the board with this, but even if sabermetrics proclaim they're really the best team in baseball waiting to burst out, the amount of ground they have to cover and the amount of slack the Yankees have is very substantial. Same with the Rays. Do we think the Red Sox are capable of playing over .600 ball the rest of the way while the Yankees and Rays both stumble? Even if they secured the 1st wildcard it's still not worth buying in on a team who is going to enter a 1-game playoff situation, home or not. I hope I'm wrong, sneak in and win the WS, but .500 on June 1st and 8.5 behind the 1st place team and 7 behind the 2nd place team isn't great.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 1, 2019 14:25:16 GMT -5
Sox xwOBA last night: .248. That's not including Betts IBB, which was barely intentional.
Yankee xwOBA: .247. However, that's misleading. Sale was .235, but gave up a .349 wOBA. (Completely unsurprising to me.) Josh Taylor doesn't pitch if it isn't for the insanely awful luck both on balls in play and sequencing, and he gave up .293 to 3 batters. Happ gave up a .228 xwOBA and .249 wOBA. I scored every pitch and I said out loud to my housemate "this game should be tied." (She's smart enough to reply "it's baseball. You know this happens.") The Yankees gave up 5 hard-hit balls that were expected hits, and the Sox had a BABIP of .250. Devers' homer, Martinez off of Ottavino right at Gardner, Bradley off of Kahnle, Vazquez immediately following right at Hicks, and Betts leading off against Britton right at Torres. The Sox gave up four, and the Yankees had a BABIP of 1.000. Sanchez in the second, LeMahieu and Hicks in the span of three batters in the 3rd, and LeMahhieu's homer. And of course, the two that they managed to cluster came immediately after two super cheap hits.
You can say that, hey, once Sale gave up two ridiculously cheap hits in the same inning, he has to bear down and not then give up, with two outs, half of his the hard-hit balls of the evening. But it doesn't work that way. Nobody has that skill. There are times when a guy bears down and pitches out a jam like that and times he doesn't. It's random.
It counts as a loss. It doesn't supply much evidence that the team isn't good enough to beat the Yankees.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 1, 2019 14:27:04 GMT -5
Even if the Sox get swept there's no real reason to deal Betts. The Sox need to sign him. It's that simple and they know it. They need to re-up JD Martinez, too. The Red Sox basically have the same team as last year and if they hold onto Betts and bring back Martinez, they will lose Porcello, but beyond basically the same team. In scenario A, you have this team maxing out everything you can dream of - that's the 2018 Red Sox. In scenario B, you have this team disappointing and boring the hell out of you - that's the 2019 Red Sox. In scenario C, you probably have a team in the middle of A and B - probably winning 95 games on talent alone - that would probably be the 2020 Red Sox. If you trade away Betts, you likely undo scenario C. And if you sign Betts long-term, the Sox can continue to compete at a high level for the foreseeable future. Btw, LOL to scenario B cuz it’s really pretty true. This team hasn’t been much fun to watch, beyond the emergence of Rafi, Barnes, and Chavis and Walden. But lots of underperformance including some very lackluster “teamwork.” There’s not a lot of picking eachother up, but plenty of letting down. Rick Astley would never do that. The team was really fun to watch when they had won 20 of 30 games about a week ago.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 1, 2019 14:27:45 GMT -5
If I could figure out how to embed gifs, I would embed the one of Woody Harrelson in No Country For Old Men, in cowboy hat and wearing an expression of appalled horror, saying to Anton Chigurrh, "Do you have any idea how crazy you sound?" Not crazy. You want full value for Betts, you trade him this deadline. If you don't you're at best hoping for the Goldsmidt value of a trade with one year left. And sane people want Betts on the team.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 1, 2019 14:30:02 GMT -5
Btw, LOL to scenario B cuz it’s really pretty true. This team hasn’t been much fun to watch, beyond the emergence of Rafi, Barnes, and Chavis and Walden. But lots of underperformance including some very lackluster “teamwork.” There’s not a lot of picking eachother up, but plenty of letting down. Rick Astley would never do that. The team was really fun to watch when they had won 20 of 30 games about a week ago. They're 7-9 over their past 16 games. Their hot streak wore off a couple of weeks ago. They'll get hot again at some point. If you break the season into 3 chunks, they had that miserable 6-13 stretch, the 16-6 hot streak where they resembled the 2018 team for 3 weeks, and the 7-9 cool-down they've been experiencing. So, 29-28.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jun 1, 2019 14:31:54 GMT -5
Not crazy. You want full value for Betts, you trade him this deadline. If you don't you're at best hoping for the Goldsmidt value of a trade with one year left. And sane people want Betts on the team. Only if resigning him is a real possibility. He's too good to just get a draft pick back.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 1, 2019 14:33:22 GMT -5
And sane people want Betts on the team. Only if resigning him is a real possibility. He's too good to just get a draft pick back. I don't have any faith that Henry will step up to the plate on this one. 350-400 million dollars for Betts coming and I expect Henry to pay that? Nope.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 1, 2019 14:33:47 GMT -5
And sane people want Betts on the team. Only if resigning him is a real possibility. He's too good to just get a draft pick back. He's too good to trade and not take a giant step backwards and create a giant hole that will never be filled again.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 1, 2019 14:35:27 GMT -5
Sox xwOBA last night: .248. That's not including Betts IBB, which was barely intentional.
Yankee xwOBA: .247. However, that's misleading. Sale was .235, but gave up a .349 wOBA. (Completely unsurprising to me.) Josh Taylor doesn't pitch if it isn't for the insanely awful luck both on balls in play and sequencing, and he gave up .293 to 3 batters. Happ gave up a .228 xwOBA and .249 wOBA. I scored every pitch and I said out loud to my housemate "this game should be tied." (She's smart enough to reply "it's baseball. You know this happens.") The Yankees gave up 5 hard-hit balls that were expected hits, and the Sox had a BABIP of .250. Devers' homer, Martinez off of Ottavino right at Gardner, Bradley off of Kahnle, Vazquez immediately following right at Hicks, and Betts leading off against Britton right at Torres. The Sox gave up four, and the Yankees had a BABIP of 1.000. Sanchez in the second, LeMahieu and Hicks in the span of three batters in the 3rd, and LeMahhieu's homer. And of course, the two that they managed to cluster came immediately after two super cheap hits.
You can say that, hey, once Sale gave up two ridiculously cheap hits in the same inning, he has to bear down and not then give up, with two outs, half of his the hard-hit balls of the evening. But it doesn't work that way. Nobody has that skill. There are times when a guy bears down and pitches out a jam like that and times he doesn't. It's random.
It counts as a loss. It doesn't supply much evidence that the team isn't good enough to beat the Yankees.
Regardless, the bottom line is the 8.5 game difference in the standings which are providing the crucial evidence that the Red Sox have not been good enough to beat the Yankees or Rays or as Bill Parcells famously said, "you are what your record says you are." The Sox will play better - too much talent not to, but they're not going to spot a talented but banged up Yankees team an 8.5 game lead, watch them get their A team back, lose to them head-to-head and expect to overcome the deficit, and they won't catch Tampa that way either. They'll be concerning themselves with Oakland and Cleveland to grab the 2nd wild card.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 1, 2019 14:38:22 GMT -5
Only if resigning him is a real possibility. He's too good to just get a draft pick back. I don't have any faith that Henry will step up to the plate on this one. 350-400 million dollars for Betts coming and I expect Henry to pay that? Nope. You could wind up being right, but you can't dismiss the importance of the 2020 season with Betts, nor can you assume that Henry and the Sox won't put the full-court press on Betts. I do worry that if Betts isn't his MVP self there will be a discrepancy on what the Sox think his value is versus what Betts feels his value is. If he's putting up stats like 2018, then there's no dispute, only a question of are they willing to come up with the money? I'm going to take a leap of faith that they're going to make him their #1 priority. He is the centerpiece of the team.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 1, 2019 14:51:49 GMT -5
The team was really fun to watch when they had won 20 of 30 games about a week ago. They're 7-9 over their past 16 games. Their hot streak wore off a couple of weeks ago. They'll get hot again at some point. If you break the season into 3 chunks, they had that miserable 6-13 stretch, the 16-6 hot streak where they resembled the 2018 team for 3 weeks, and the 7-9 cool-down they've been experiencing. So, 29-28. And all the chronic whiners shut the hell up for 3 weeks, that was great. I either enjoy baseball or I stop watching it. I don't even mind watching the Red Sox lose because I love baseball, not just winning. What I can't handle is the fans whining and bragging to others about how right they were about negative things (even though they were 100% wrong last season). They post the dumbest suggestions I've ever read because they can't handle not winning a championship every single season because Boston sports fans are now by far the most whiny spoiled brat fans in sports. The response to every single one of these posts should just be a baby throwing a temper tantrum gif. So I'll be back when these idiots shut the hell up when the slump is over.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 1, 2019 14:58:58 GMT -5
They're 7-9 over their past 16 games. Their hot streak wore off a couple of weeks ago. They'll get hot again at some point. If you break the season into 3 chunks, they had that miserable 6-13 stretch, the 16-6 hot streak where they resembled the 2018 team for 3 weeks, and the 7-9 cool-down they've been experiencing. So, 29-28. And all the chronic whiners shut the hell up for 3 weeks, that was great. I either enjoy baseball or I stop watching it. I don't even mind watching the Red Sox lose because I love baseball, not just winning. What I can't handle is the fans whining and bragging to others about how right they were about negative things (even though they were 100% wrong last season). They post the dumbest suggestions I've ever read because they can't handle not winning a championship every single season because Boston sports fans are now by far the most whiny spoiled brat fans in sports. The response to every single one of these posts should just be a baby throwing a temper tantrum gif. So I'll be back when these idiots shut the hell up when the slump is over. Lol. If everyone could be like you..... No one is dumb for making suggestions. Fans can handle winning or losing in any way they want to. You should go live in a communist country where everyone is told what to watch, who to vote for, and told what to do. It would make life much simpler for you and the way you think.
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