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8/2-8/4 Red Sox @ Yankees Series Thread
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Post by sarasoxer on Aug 4, 2019 22:03:46 GMT -5
You can't blame Price. He was not at yesterday's players only team meeting. Price's performance in last 10 starts: 45.1 innings,.900 OPSagainst and 6.55 era. Since his Eck attack 4 starts, 20 runs in 17 starts. He shoulders plenty of blame. I was kidding. Mirth is good medicine as one approaches the gallows.
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Aug 4, 2019 22:07:44 GMT -5
Price. Baby 👧 girl was born Thursday. Maybe his sleep was effected
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 4, 2019 22:08:28 GMT -5
Weber has pitched well, not that it matters.
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Post by coachmac on Aug 4, 2019 22:12:31 GMT -5
Price's performance in last 10 starts: 45.1 innings,.900 OPSagainst and 6.55 era. Since his Eck attack 4 starts, 20 runs in 17 starts. He shoulders plenty of blame. I was kidding. Mirth is good medicine as one approaches the gallows. I knew you were kidding but now that I've confessed my dislike of Price I cant stop pointing out his poor stats.👍
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Post by manfred on Aug 4, 2019 22:12:58 GMT -5
I miss Papi. If he was DH, I’d still believe.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 4, 2019 22:38:05 GMT -5
The two biggest disappointments in today's game.
JBJ 0-3 with 3K 2 LOB and 1 HBP
David Price 2.2 7 ER
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Post by soxjim on Aug 4, 2019 22:49:41 GMT -5
I wouldn't add ERod. He hasn't stunk but for classifying as "pitched well" you should be at least under a 4 era. He only appears "well" because the others have been so lousy. Especially lately. And lately he had a nice run. But weren't we expecting better from ERod this year than a 4.19 era? At the start of the season he was our fifth starter behind Sale,Price, Eovaldi and Porcello. I don't know what the home run party has done to eras across the board. I would think 4.19 in the ALEast would be considered piching well. In addition he really has stepped up when the Sox needed. Anyone know his ERA+? We can agree to disagree. An over 4 era is not "pitching well." Nor does it matter "what number pitcher you classify him." Last year he was good enough to be under 4 and he pitched in the same AL East. And two other full season Sox starters besides ERod last year pitched under 4 era. And Eovladi did thouhg it was just 11 games. Nor does it matter "because he wins it means he is pitching well." We used ot hear this talk years ago when the ynkas "owned" the Sox later parts of seasons. Bottomline if Erod has had an under 4 era before -- this year he is pitching over. -- This isn't good. It's worse and over a 4 ERA is not "well." Its an excuse.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 4, 2019 23:00:53 GMT -5
That was the Red Sox 55th loss of the season - in just 114 games. Last season the Red Sox only lost 54 games the entire regular season. So that's 49 fewer wins at the time the Sox had their 54th loss this season. Wow, what an amazing difference a year makes.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 4, 2019 23:20:24 GMT -5
At the start of the season he was our fifth starter behind Sale,Price, Eovaldi and Porcello. I don't know what the home run party has done to eras across the board. I would think 4.19 in the ALEast would be considered piching well. In addition he really has stepped up when the Sox needed. Anyone know his ERA+? We can agree to disagree. An over 4 era is not "pitching well." Nor does it matter "what number pitcher you classify him." Last year he was good enough to be under 4 and he pitched in the same AL East. And two other full season Sox starters besides ERod last year pitched under 4 era. And Eovladi did thouhg it was just 11 games. Nor does it matter "because he wins it means he is pitching well." We used ot hear this talk years ago when the ynkas "owned" the Sox later parts of seasons. Bottomline if Erod has had an under 4 era before -- this year he is pitching over. -- This isn't good. It's worse and over a 4 ERA is not "well." Its an excuse. Offense across the league has increased and if your 4/5 starter has a low 4 ERA that's good, but the hope for E-Rod is that he's a 2/3 starter with a 3.5-3.75 ERA. Unfortunately, his FIP isn't better than his ERA so it's discouraging. The Yankees have a very good offense and him "only" allowing 4 over 6.2 IP after that disaster 1st showed a lot of grit.
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Post by soxjim on Aug 4, 2019 23:25:56 GMT -5
We can agree to disagree. An over 4 era is not "pitching well." Nor does it matter "what number pitcher you classify him." Last year he was good enough to be under 4 and he pitched in the same AL East. And two other full season Sox starters besides ERod last year pitched under 4 era. And Eovladi did thouhg it was just 11 games. Nor does it matter "because he wins it means he is pitching well." We used ot hear this talk years ago when the ynkas "owned" the Sox later parts of seasons. Bottomline if Erod has had an under 4 era before -- this year he is pitching over. -- This isn't good. It's worse and over a 4 ERA is not "well." Its an excuse. Offense across the league has increased and if your 4/5 starter has a low 4 ERA that's good, but the hope for E-Rod is that he's a 2/3 starter with a 3.5-3.75 ERA. Unfortunately, his FIP isn't better than his ERA so it's discouraging. The Yankees have a very good offense and him "only" allowing 4 over 6.2 IP after that disaster 1st showed a lot of grit. No. His start vs the Yanks was not a good start. We only hype it because the others are so awful. AN over 4 era starter is a number 3 starter at best.
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Post by manfred on Aug 4, 2019 23:33:50 GMT -5
Offense across the league has increased and if your 4/5 starter has a low 4 ERA that's good, but the hope for E-Rod is that he's a 2/3 starter with a 3.5-3.75 ERA. Unfortunately, his FIP isn't better than his ERA so it's discouraging. The Yankees have a very good offense and him "only" allowing 4 over 6.2 IP after that disaster 1st showed a lot of grit. No. His start vs the Yanks was not a good start. We only hype it because the others are so awful. AN over 4 era starter is a number 3 starter at best. ERod last year: ERA+ 117, winning % .722, h/9 8.3, bb/9 3.1 k/9 10.1 ERod this year: ERA+ 115, winning % .722, h/9 8.5, bb/9 3.3 k/9 9.2 Fundamentally, he is pretty similar to what he was last year. That’s pretty solid.
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Post by incandenza on Aug 4, 2019 23:42:08 GMT -5
We can agree to disagree. An over 4 era is not "pitching well." Nor does it matter "what number pitcher you classify him." Last year he was good enough to be under 4 and he pitched in the same AL East. And two other full season Sox starters besides ERod last year pitched under 4 era. And Eovladi did thouhg it was just 11 games. Nor does it matter "because he wins it means he is pitching well." We used ot hear this talk years ago when the ynkas "owned" the Sox later parts of seasons. Bottomline if Erod has had an under 4 era before -- this year he is pitching over. -- This isn't good. It's worse and over a 4 ERA is not "well." Its an excuse. Offense across the league has increased and if your 4/5 starter has a low 4 ERA that's good, but the hope for E-Rod is that he's a 2/3 starter with a 3.5-3.75 ERA. Unfortunately, his FIP isn't better than his ERA so it's discouraging. The Yankees have a very good offense and him "only" allowing 4 over 6.2 IP after that disaster 1st showed a lot of grit. If you toss out his first two starts, when the Sox rotation was still in extended spring training mode, he has a 3.68 ERA/4.11 FIP/4.07 xFIP. That would be 11th out of 33 AL qualifiers in ERA, 13th in FIP, and 12th in xFIP. I don't know where you want to place that in the semantics of 2nd or 3rd or 4th starter or whatever, but he's been pretty valuable.
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Aug 4, 2019 23:50:31 GMT -5
That was the Red Sox 55th loss of the season - in just 114 games. Last season the Red Sox only lost 54 games the entire regular season. So that's 49 fewer wins at the time the Sox had their 54th loss this season. Wow, what an amazing difference a year makes. '67 Sox were 61-53, 2 games ahead of this pace.
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Post by soxjim on Aug 4, 2019 23:52:26 GMT -5
Offense across the league has increased and if your 4/5 starter has a low 4 ERA that's good, but the hope for E-Rod is that he's a 2/3 starter with a 3.5-3.75 ERA. Unfortunately, his FIP isn't better than his ERA so it's discouraging. The Yankees have a very good offense and him "only" allowing 4 over 6.2 IP after that disaster 1st showed a lot of grit. If you toss out his first two starts, when the Sox rotation was still in extended spring training mode, he has a 3.68 ERA/4.11 FIP/4.07 xFIP. That would be 11th out of 33 AL qualifiers in ERA, 13th in FIP, and 12th in xFIP. I don't know where you want to place that in the semantics of 2nd or 3rd or 4th starter or whatever, but he's been pretty valuable. c'mon! You can't toss out games. They count. I say this in fun but you're pulling a Wakefield on me. I recall one season early on starters got rocked early and then later did they well and he said - well taking away 1st 15 games . . . - and it was about 25 games into the season.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 5, 2019 0:05:45 GMT -5
Offense across the league has increased and if your 4/5 starter has a low 4 ERA that's good, but the hope for E-Rod is that he's a 2/3 starter with a 3.5-3.75 ERA. Unfortunately, his FIP isn't better than his ERA so it's discouraging. The Yankees have a very good offense and him "only" allowing 4 over 6.2 IP after that disaster 1st showed a lot of grit. No. His start vs the Yanks was not a good start. We only hype it because the others are so awful. AN over 4 era starter is a number 3 starter at best. I never said it was a good start. I said the Yankees have a good offense and that him hanging in their and giving them 6.2 IP without giving up any more runs was ballsy, but it wasn't a good start. E-Rod was expected to be their 4/5, but his potential is 2/3 so it really depends on what your expectations are. If everyone else pitched to their potential then you got what you needed out of E-rod, but it's not to his potential.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 5, 2019 0:08:45 GMT -5
Offense across the league has increased and if your 4/5 starter has a low 4 ERA that's good, but the hope for E-Rod is that he's a 2/3 starter with a 3.5-3.75 ERA. Unfortunately, his FIP isn't better than his ERA so it's discouraging. The Yankees have a very good offense and him "only" allowing 4 over 6.2 IP after that disaster 1st showed a lot of grit. If you toss out his first two starts, when the Sox rotation was still in extended spring training mode, he has a 3.68 ERA/4.11 FIP/4.07 xFIP. That would be 11th out of 33 AL qualifiers in ERA, 13th in FIP, and 12th in xFIP. I don't know where you want to place that in the semantics of 2nd or 3rd or 4th starter or whatever, but he's been pretty valuable. I'd say that's roughly what I would expect from him, but still hope for better in terms of FIP and xFIP the ERA I think is his ceiling as a starter.
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Post by soxjim on Aug 5, 2019 0:27:39 GMT -5
No. His start vs the Yanks was not a good start. We only hype it because the others are so awful. AN over 4 era starter is a number 3 starter at best. I never said it was a good start. I said the Yankees have a good offense and that him hanging in their and giving them 6.2 IP without giving up any more runs was ballsy, but it wasn't a good start. E-Rod was expected to be their 4/5, but his potential is 2/3 so it really depends on what your expectations are. If everyone else pitched to their potential then you got what you needed out of E-rod, but it's not to his potential. Expectation was not the context of the posts however. The context was "has he pitched well." He hasn't. He's been average. If you want to focus on one game or take away games (not you personally) you can justify anything. But a 4.19 era is not "pitching well." It doesn't mean he has been stinking either. To further put it into context -- among any mlb team that has 10% chance or higher making the wc playoffs - the sox starter ERod while now has jumped ahead of Price as their number 1 starter but he;d be the worst option in terms of era vs any other team with a 10% or higher chance. That's 16 other teams. Just putting it in perspective he is the worst among all other team's number 1 other starters. Where do you think he'd be if I compared him last year vs the top 16 teams? I guarantee it wouldn't be last. Every other team has a starter with under a 4 era. ERod hasn't been awful. He's been mediocre. Last year he was better too. Throwing out games though (the 1st two) is soooo wrong. They count!!!
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Post by incandenza on Aug 5, 2019 0:57:54 GMT -5
If you toss out his first two starts, when the Sox rotation was still in extended spring training mode, he has a 3.68 ERA/4.11 FIP/4.07 xFIP. That would be 11th out of 33 AL qualifiers in ERA, 13th in FIP, and 12th in xFIP. I don't know where you want to place that in the semantics of 2nd or 3rd or 4th starter or whatever, but he's been pretty valuable. c'mon! You can't toss out games. They count. I say this in fun but you're pulling a Wakefield on me. I recall one season early on starters got rocked early and then later did they well and he said - well taking away 1st 15 games . . . - and it was about 25 games into the season. It depends on what question you're trying to answer. If the question is, "How has he performed this season?" then yeah, you have to include all the games. If the question is, "What is his talent level?" or "What can we expect from him going forward?" then I think you do well to throw out the first two games, when the rotation hadn't properly ramped up yet.
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Post by carmenfanzone on Aug 5, 2019 6:43:33 GMT -5
When can we start taking about next year? What do they have to do to fix this? Is there a team in the league that would take Price's contract? Sale's contract? How do you move forward with those two contracts? How do you fix the pitching?
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Post by soxfansince67 on Aug 5, 2019 6:46:14 GMT -5
c'mon! You can't toss out games. They count. I say this in fun but you're pulling a Wakefield on me. I recall one season early on starters got rocked early and then later did they well and he said - well taking away 1st 15 games . . . - and it was about 25 games into the season. It depends on what question you're trying to answer. If the question is, "How has he performed this season?" then yeah, you have to include all the games. If the question is, "What is his talent level?" or "What can we expect from him going forward?" then I think you do well to throw out the first two games, when the rotation hadn't properly ramped up yet. I missed the ramp up, but we seem to be ramping way way down
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Post by soxfansince67 on Aug 5, 2019 7:00:41 GMT -5
I don't think I've ever fallen asleep during a Sox MFY game, but I did last night, during the 7th. No surprise waking up to find they laid down dead.
Amazing irony...from the time Eovaldi was named the closer, there have been essentially no save opportunities..
One of the more pathetic stretches in recent memories. Sad
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Post by James Dunne on Aug 5, 2019 8:33:59 GMT -5
Cutting Sandy Leon would have the benefit of starting the process of building the 2020 team and getting Chris Sale used to pitching to someone else. Not even someone else specifically, just "not Sandy Leon." It would also have the ancilliary benefit of making the 2019 Red Sox slightly better just in case there's a miracle comeback in them. In five years with the Red Sox he has a 2.5 bWAR. Which isn't bad for a backup catcher until you realize that 2.8 of that came in one season.
I had the good fortune to only be able to watch about two innings of this series. I wasn't around for 1978, but I can't remember a week like this before. That 2006 series gets talked about a lot, but immediately before the Yankee sweep they got swept by a seriously awful Royals team. That team fell apart basically entirely, but at least it fell apart for reasons that seemed to make sense. The story of the 2019 Red Sox is the entire pitching staff, to a person, falling apart. Maybe the long 2018 crushed them and this is just the price to pay, but this losing streak, just as it seemed things had come together, is a real gut punch.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 5, 2019 8:42:29 GMT -5
Cutting Sandy Leon would have the benefit of starting the process of building the 2020 team and getting Chris Sale used to pitching to someone else. Not even someone else specifically, just "not Sandy Leon." It would also have the ancilliary benefit of making the 2019 Red Sox slightly better just in case there's a miracle comeback in them. In five years with the Red Sox he has a 2.5 bWAR. Which isn't bad for a backup catcher until you realize that 2.8 of that came in one season. I had the good fortune to only be able to watch about two innings of this series. I wasn't around for 1978, but I can't remember a week like this before. That 2006 series gets talked about a lot, but immediately before the Yankee sweep they got swept by a seriously awful Royals team. That team fell apart basically entirely, but at least it fell apart for reasons that seemed to make sense. The story of the 2019 Red Sox is the entire pitching staff, to a person, falling apart. Maybe the long 2018 crushed them and this is just the price to pay, but this losing streak, just as it seemed things had come together, is a real gut punch. I could buy this if the Dodgers weren't 74-40.
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Post by James Dunne on Aug 5, 2019 8:48:15 GMT -5
Cutting Sandy Leon would have the benefit of starting the process of building the 2020 team and getting Chris Sale used to pitching to someone else. Not even someone else specifically, just "not Sandy Leon." It would also have the ancilliary benefit of making the 2019 Red Sox slightly better just in case there's a miracle comeback in them. In five years with the Red Sox he has a 2.5 bWAR. Which isn't bad for a backup catcher until you realize that 2.8 of that came in one season. I had the good fortune to only be able to watch about two innings of this series. I wasn't around for 1978, but I can't remember a week like this before. That 2006 series gets talked about a lot, but immediately before the Yankee sweep they got swept by a seriously awful Royals team. That team fell apart basically entirely, but at least it fell apart for reasons that seemed to make sense. The story of the 2019 Red Sox is the entire pitching staff, to a person, falling apart. Maybe the long 2018 crushed them and this is just the price to pay, but this losing streak, just as it seemed things had come together, is a real gut punch. I could buy this if the Dodgers weren't 74-40. The Red Sox managed their staff differently in October than the Dodgers did and won the World Series because of it. Also, it kind of goes without saying that it may be easier for some players to come back from an increased workload than others. Also, too, the Dodgers pitching depth is a pretty obvious reason for their success. Ross Stripling is like their 8th best starter. ----- EDIT: Seeing some conversation above - Eduardo Rodriguez has a 4.19 ERA, and the league has a 4.49 ERA, and Fenway has a park effect this year of 108. I know it's convenient to call a 4.00 ERA "average" but that's not what an average pitcher is in 2019. You don't just get to decide "average" based on your personal expectations and the convenience of round numbers. Average has a definition, and Eduardo Rodriguez has been better than it. You're free to be disappointed by it--it's not up to me to tell you what your expectations are. But a 115 ERA+ is, by definition, above average.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 5, 2019 8:54:31 GMT -5
Cutting Sandy Leon would have the benefit of starting the process of building the 2020 team and getting Chris Sale used to pitching to someone else. Not even someone else specifically, just "not Sandy Leon." It would also have the ancilliary benefit of making the 2019 Red Sox slightly better just in case there's a miracle comeback in them. In five years with the Red Sox he has a 2.5 bWAR. Which isn't bad for a backup catcher until you realize that 2.8 of that came in one season. I had the good fortune to only be able to watch about two innings of this series. I wasn't around for 1978, but I can't remember a week like this before. That 2006 series gets talked about a lot, but immediately before the Yankee sweep they got swept by a seriously awful Royals team. That team fell apart basically entirely, but at least it fell apart for reasons that seemed to make sense. The story of the 2019 Red Sox is the entire pitching staff, to a person, falling apart. Maybe the long 2018 crushed them and this is just the price to pay, but this losing streak, just as it seemed things had come together, is a real gut punch. My memory might not be right re: this but I think in 2006 Varitek had gotten injured, and when he wasn't around, they really, really struggled. The guy could call a game. And that team just tanked. But they were also beset by injuries, more than Tek. This year's team, I believe, is paying the price for last season's perfection. It's part the law of averages coming home to roost (so thankful it waited until AFTER the World Series to happen). I don't know if the "rover" thing impacted the starters - the pitching in between starts - or not? I don't think it gets talked about because we really don't know. I don't recall relievers being used exactly the way Cora did last post-season. Sale had 2 relief appearances, Eovaldi had 4 (1 of which was like a start and he was back warming up on 1 day of rest), Porcello had 2 relief outings, Price had one and warmed up intensely in another before starting the next day. I have no idea if this is what's catching up to them. The plan was to ease them off in spring training because of that, so maybe that's what it is. But the bottom line is that Sale, Price, and Porcello have all nose-dived from where their expectations were and Eovaldi got hurt early and has been a non-factor. Then you take the fluky "this happens when you win stuff" Brian Johnson and Hector Velazquez being quite useful and awesome in 2018 and replace them with being worthless in 2019, and there's the pitching collapse, and it's not like the bullpen was improved over the offseason. So yeah, I guess the foundation was laid for a staff wide pitching collapse. The scary part, as somebody else mentioned, was that now they're at a point, there's not many options to fix the problem if Sale and Price can't rebound. I think Price will, once he stops opening his big yap, about Eckersley - I'm only half kidding here - I expect he'll pitch well going forward and be a solid #2 type starter. Sale, I just don't know. I can't say we'll ever see Chris Sale, the ace, the guy who gives the Sox a huge advantage. I'm not ready to declare him a bust yet either. He still gets the Ks, but when he misses location, man do they hit it a long way. And I still have no idea what to expect going forward from Eovaldi. But if Sale is nowhere near what Sale can be, what do they do? There is no farm system gem to trade for the next ace the way the Astros sent four strong prospects (while hanging onto the two they wanted to keep) to get Greinke. Nor is there a guaranteed ace on the FA market. There's a lot of drooling over Gerit Cole, and he's a solid pitcher who'd help, but he wouldn't be what Chris Sale was. Maybe the Sox get him, but who knows? Wouldn't shock me if he's signed, gives one of two years that are good and then we would spend the rest of his contract waiting for it to be over with. Who knows? I do know that there are no future aces coming out of the Red Sox farm system and that Mata probably needs a good half season at least and he's probably a mid-rotation starter at best (in other words he can replace Porcello's 2018, but not Sale if Sale isn't his ace self)
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