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Post by jrffam05 on Feb 19, 2013 11:59:28 GMT -5
Think there should be a discussion of who should make up our bullpen and what roles they should fill. I think our bullpen this year is a top 5 talent although we don't have a "sure thing" closer. Ben said it will probably be a 7 man bullpen seeing as Ortiz is a full time DH.
RH Joel Hanrahan RH Andrew Bailey RH Alfredo Aceves (1 option) RH Junichi Tazawa (1 option) RH Koji Uehara LH Craig Breslow LH Franklin Morales (1 option) LH Andrew Miller RH Clay Mortensen (no options) RH Daniel Bard (1 option) RH Chris Carpenter RH Alex Wilson RH Pedro Beato RH Jose De La Torre LH Rich Hill RH Allen Webster RH Rubby De La Rosa LH Chris Hernandez
Please forgive me if I left off anyone or messed up their options. My bullpen
CL - Hanrahan SU - Bailey SU - Tazawa MR - Breslow MR - Miller MR - Uehara LR - Morales (stretched out)
AAA Aceves (stretched out) Bard Wilson Carpenter
Trade Canidates: Mortensen Aceves Miller if you can sell high
Notes: It sucks that there was no room for Mortensen, Hill, or Atch in this bullpen, but it is a positive that the bullpen is that good. I am against trading Bard, Morales, and Bailey. I really like Carpenters potential, although we will probably never see him close to his ceiling. Please Ben no more trading for bullpen arms (Stewart, Beato, Torre)
Of my list I think Hanrahan, Breslow, Miller, and Uehara are the only locks to make it (Bailey also lock if not traded), so it does not allow for much variance.
Thoughts?
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Post by hammerhead on Feb 19, 2013 12:10:36 GMT -5
I think Breslow is a lock for the DL to start the year or at the very least XST. That would give you room to bring Mortensen into the fold. I also wonder if it's gonna be a problem sending Bard to AAA if he's throwing 99 with reasonable control all ST. I suppose if that is the case then you worry about the roster slot with somone else because he's an elite set-up man.
CL: Hanrahan SU: Bard SU: Tazawa MR: Uehara LR: Morales LR: Miller SWing: Mortensen
I trade Bailey (assuming Bard is himself), if Bard is still wild he goes to AAA and Bailey is not traded.
I put Aceves on optional waivers and if a deal can be worked out I trade him. If the other teams are scared off by the attitude , he goes in the bucket.
Injuries have a way of making this look easier then it appears.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 19, 2013 13:37:24 GMT -5
Injuries will determine what the pen looks like, but since we're putting forth our best guesses:
Hanrahan Bailey (if he stays healthy) Tazawa Uehara Miller (Breslow likely will be on the DL when they open) Morales Mortensen (I think Aceves will be gone before the season begins if the Sox aren't hit by too many injuries)
If Doubront starts the season on the DL and Bard is back to his old self, then Bard would be in the pen and Morales could start in Doubront's place.
The original post had Hill in its listing, but I believe Rich Hill is with the Indians now.
I highly doubt that Chris Carpenter will ever harness his control enough to be an effective pitcher. Beato and De La Torre are fringe. I think Alex Wilson still has a chance to help the pen at some point.
Hernandez will be in AAA as will Webster and De La Rosa.
The pen could be good, but I don't think it's the shutdown pen others have been saying. I've seen Sox bullpens that looked just as good if not better on paper.
They, like every other pen, have their fair share of questions like how will Hanrahan adjust to the AL East and will he command his pitches which he didn't do late last season.
Will Bailey stay healthy for a change?
Will Bard be his old self or Steve Blass?
Can Miller be relied on if Breslow's injury slows him down? Frankly I still don't trust Miller to throw enough strikes.
Will Uehara stay healthy enough to give them 60 innings or so?
Like many other teams, their pen could be awesome or it could be a disappointment. I think most likely their pen will be above average, but not dominating. I'm not 100% convinced Hanrahan will be a lockdown closer.
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Post by jmei on Feb 19, 2013 14:20:08 GMT -5
Assuming Breslow starts the year on the DL:
Hanrahan Bailey Tazawa Uehara Miller Morales (longman) Mortensen/Bard (depending whether Bard is playing well)
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Feb 19, 2013 18:22:22 GMT -5
Assuming Breslow starts the year on the DL: Hanrahan Bailey Tazawa Uehara Miller Morales (longman) Mortensen/Bard (depending whether Bard is playing well) That's how I see it. I think Farrell helps straighten Bard out and he beats Mortenson out. Hoping we get the Bard of 2010/11. That would give us some ammo to trade. A. Bailey + for a LH bat. Either 1b or LF.
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Post by mattpicard on Feb 19, 2013 18:59:39 GMT -5
Barring injury, it's tough to picture Bard and Bailey both being in the pen for a significant chunk of the season. Perhaps Bailey can thrive as a setup man while his trade value rebuilds for a month or two, and Bard can attempt to reestablish himself as a dominant reliever in AAA at the start of the season. As startling as Bard's lost command and velocity was last season, there are reasons to believe he'll return at least partially to his true form in the pen.
CL: Hanrahan SU: Bailey (maybe Bard by mid-season?) SU: Tazawa MR: Uehara MR: Miller MR: Breslow (DL candidate); Mortensen LR: Morales
I hate to have Mortensen be such a fringe candidate after his impressive showing in 2012, but with Hanrahan, Tazawa, Uehara as locks, and Bailey for the time being, I don't see a spot for him unless Breslow is DL'd and Bard is sent to AAA initially. It's similar to the Atchison situation, who I was really upset to see depart, but there didn't seem to be a way to squeeze him in with anything other than a minor league offer after signing Uehara.
Morales has a live arm when healthy, but him and Miller both scare me in critical situations despite the considerable talent. Millers BB/9 particularly worries me, despite 2012 being a career best (4.5), as I'm not ready to accept his new-found bullpen role as security for his erratic command. But as middle relief lefties (with Morales perhaps taking on a more lengthy role at times), I am comfortable with them in the pen.
As for Aceves, I love his value as a multi-role pitcher in the bullpen (excluding closer), as he was a blessing to have throughout 2011. However, it simply is tough to picture him on the opening day roster, barring multiple injuries; of course, it may be quite tough to find a suitable trading partner, and we didn't give him $2.65 million for no return. But if Felix struggles or gets injured early on, what about trying Aceves in the rotation, before turning to Ruby De La Rosa or one of the younger guys? If his heads on straight (hopefully starting would calm his erratic behavior a bit), he could be solid 5th starter, as could Morales, as we saw flashes of last season before he tired out.
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Post by jmei on Feb 19, 2013 19:23:46 GMT -5
Mortensen put up a great ERA in 2012, but he seems like a major regression candidate. Compare his 3.21 ERA to his 4.74 FIP and 4.04 xFIP, and consider that his BB/9 of 4.07 is almost as bad as Miller and worse than Morales, but without their gaudy strikeout rates. Also consider that his MLB strikeout rate of 8.79 K/9 was the best he'd put up in the majors or minors since 2007, when he was with the A-ball Quad Cities River Bandits in his first year of professional ball. He also put up those numbers while pitching very low leverage situations-- his 0.56 average leverage index was the lowest among regular relievers on the team. Anecdotal evidence indicates that it's easy for marginal relievers to put up great stats in garbage time but that it might not translate to higher-leverage situations.
Mortensen might have actually become a totally different pitcher last year, however. In 2012, he started throwing his slider more than his fastball, while in past years he had relied on his four-seamer. That change likely explains the uptick in swings-and-misses, but it remains to be seen whether hitters will continue to offer so often as his scouting report gets updated or whether his UCL can remain healthy while throwing so many sliders.
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Post by mattpicard on Feb 19, 2013 20:39:51 GMT -5
Some good points. I do remember him mopping up games with a very surprising amount of K's in 2012, but it's worth noting he has a career 3.4 BB/9 and 7.1 K/9 in the minors. That being considered, I'm not too worried about his walk rates, and as you mentioned, the slider helped generate a lot more swing and misses, and it made a big difference in his 2012 minor league performance as well.
The more serious concerns of mine come with the other things you mentioned, such as the leverage of the situations (although it's not like now we would need to rely on him more than in 2012), FIP, and also his propensity to serve up long balls. It's hard to justify a spot for him if everyone else is healthy, but maybe if he pitches well against decent hitters this spring he can snag the last spot (assuming Aceves is out of the picture and one of the 3 lefties is injured, which seems pretty likely). Otherwise, we'll probably lose him to another team while retaining one of the top pens in the game. I guess I'm just rooting for him since good guy and was a pleasant surprise last season, but like with Atchison, you can't hang onto everyone, even if they are pretty effective.
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Post by buffs4444 on Feb 19, 2013 21:45:22 GMT -5
CL-Hanrahan SU-Bard SU-Uehara SU-Tazawa LH-Miller LH-Doubront (Morales is the starter) RP-Bailey / Aceves / Mortensen DL: Breslow
Two of the Bailey / Aceves / Mortensen figure to be dealt as long as Bard is back and Taz is legit. I'll say Bailey to DET and Aceves to NYM, with Mortensen taking the mop role. Best case has the young kids stepping in this year and forcing deals that add prospects to the system.
Darkhorse: Rubby. For the rotation or the pen.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Feb 20, 2013 3:37:33 GMT -5
I know the club has announced they will keep 12 pitchers. But, if the bench is Nava, Ciriaco and Ross. Could we carry 13 pitchers? Seems like we're trying to replicate Baltimore's success last year. Veterans at every position. A deep, talented bullpen. They carried 13 pitchers quite a bit if memory serves me correct?
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Post by jmei on Feb 20, 2013 8:27:44 GMT -5
The problem with 13 pitchers is that it really leaves you lacking both a reliable backup at RF and 1B, which coincidentally are the two areas that need the most depth (Napoli's health problems and the fact that Victorino also backs up CF).
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Post by Kevin Pereira on Feb 20, 2013 9:40:29 GMT -5
There's no way they send Aceves to Pawtucket. Imagine how bad his attitude will be after hearing that...
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Post by jrffam05 on Feb 20, 2013 9:52:01 GMT -5
Like the idea of 13 pitchers, but don't think we are versatile enough to do it. If Ross also played 1B and Ciriaco had more experience in OF and Nap was healthy enough to catch I think it would work, but you really can't carry a full time DH with 13 pitchers for a full season.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 21, 2013 20:18:58 GMT -5
If you were going to carry 13 then you'd have to keep Carp for his ability to play 1b and OF. The fact they have a ton of home games early and the furthest away they go before 5/3 is Cleveland or Toronto helps if they want a 3 man bench. They will not let Napoli play every day so you need more then an emergency option on the bench for first. You can get away with Carp and Goes as corners between Jacoby or Victorino if you want for games here ad there. Farrell has pretty much already said it'll be a 12 man staff though. Bailey won't be traded during the spring. He's too good, gives closer insurance and has been an amazing teammate which they are looking for. If Bard pitches great and there are no injuries it's probably Aceves that goes due to attitude alone.
No injury - everyone has a good spring
Hanrahan (Closer) Bailey (setup 1) Tazawa (setup 2) Bard (7th) Koji (7/8) Miller ( lefty) Morales (swing)
Mortenson needs injuries and poor performance.
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Post by Guidas on Feb 21, 2013 22:18:47 GMT -5
I really need to see Bailey succeed for a bit before I buy into anointing him as an 8th inning guy. Right now Tazawa and Miller may be better set-up men.
And I still think Morales should've be penciled in as the 5th starter in this rotation until he proved he wasn't suited for it. He seemed to be a lot looser as a starter where a walk won't hurt him often as much as it will as a reliever. And before he ran out of gas he had games where he looked a lot more like a solid #3 than a #5. Love to see if he can carry that forward rather than to waste him on mop-up B.S.
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Post by bluechip on Feb 21, 2013 22:49:33 GMT -5
I think Uehara and Bailey be the primary setup men, at least to start the season (though I believe Tawaza will fill that role long term).
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Post by The Town Sports Cards on Mar 7, 2013 10:07:45 GMT -5
With Breslow and Morales seeming more and more likely to start the year on the DL, looks like the bullpen will form up pretty easily: CL: Hanrahan SU: Bailey MRP: Uehara MRP: Tazawa MRP: Miller MRP: Mortensen/Bard LRP: Aceves
Unless Bard turns it around he's most likely headed to AAA, so without trading/releasing anyone we get a good enough bullpen, and guys like Aceves and Bailey can build some value for when Morales and Breslow are ready to come back. Only issue is that Miller becomes the only LH in the bullpen, but for the 1st few weeks that's manageable.
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Post by station13 on Mar 7, 2013 10:23:14 GMT -5
Tazawa handled lefties better than Miller last season. I think the team is fine with just 1 LOOGY. Uehara sometimes gives up a HR here and there, for the most part, he can get anyone out.
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Post by bluechip on Mar 7, 2013 11:18:59 GMT -5
There really isn't a need for anymore than one lefty. To be honest, I really wish the team would listen to Bill James and carry 6 or even 5 relievers.
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Post by jmei on Mar 7, 2013 12:07:57 GMT -5
By the way, situations like this (with Breslow likely to begin the season on the DL and Morales probably joining him) are why you gather as much depth as possible going into Spring Training. If the Red Sox had cut Aceves, not signed Uehara, or traded Miller/Bailey/etc., the bullpen would be in pretty tough shape.
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Post by amfox1 on Mar 7, 2013 12:54:59 GMT -5
With Breslow and Morales seeming more and more likely to start the year on the DL, looks like the bullpen will form up pretty easily: CL: Hanrahan SU: Bailey MRP: Uehara MRP: Tazawa MRP: Miller MRP: Mortensen/Bard LRP: Aceves Unless Bard turns it around he's most likely headed to AAA, so without trading/releasing anyone we get a good enough bullpen, and guys like Aceves and Bailey can build some value for when Morales and Breslow are ready to come back. Only issue is that Miller becomes the only LH in the bullpen, but for the 1st few weeks that's manageable. I agree with this, with Mortensen likely making the team and Bard likely starting the year in Pawtucket. Then, once Morales or Breslow is ready, Mortensen can be DFA'd and we'll see if he makes it through waivers at that time.
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Post by charliezink16 on Mar 7, 2013 13:27:56 GMT -5
I'm in the process of writing up my 25-man roster predictions, which will have it's own thread by days end. Here is my bullpen section.
Bullpen RP: Joel Hanrahan: After converting 76 of 84 attempts over the past two seasons in Pittsburgh, Hanrahan was immediately named The Red Sox’ closer. Hanrahan is a lock for the roster and will be Boston’s closer, but entering his age 32 season, can he continue his recent stardom? Is his slight decrease in average fastball velocity (97.1>95.9) a red flag? Are an abnormally low .225 BABIP and a combined 5.00ERA in August & September 2012 causes for concern? Roster lock.
RP - Andrew Bailey: Penciled in as Boston’s closer before a thumb injury derailed the majority of his 2012 campaign. Has the ability to be a top notch AL East reliever, but injury problems and a wasted 2012 season make Bailey a HUGE question mark going forward. Bailey is a roster lock but will be on a short leash (in regards to a late inning role) with a plethora of RHP’s in contention.
RP - Junichi Tazawa: The former top prospect was one of the few bright spots on the 2012 squad. With great command of a vast arsenal of pitches and the inclusion of an excellent splitter, Tazawa posted exceptional numbers out of the ‘pen in 2012 {1.43ERA, 26.2K%-2.9BB%} while keeping the ball on the ground. 25-man roster lock who could very likely emerge at John Farrell’s set-up man.
RP - Koji Uehara: One of the MLB’s most consistent reliever since making the transition in 2010. Signed 1 yr/$4.25mil contract with Boston after putting up absurd numbers w/ Texas in 2012 {.466 OPS, 43K/3BB, 14.33K/BB, 0.64WHIP, 92%LOB}. Roster lock who will battle for the set-up role.
RP - Franklin Morales: Another near lock to make 25-man. Held LH’s to .489 OPS in 2012, making him an extra matchup nightmare for lefties. Morales’ ability to pitch in long relief and make spot starts w/o missing a beat makes his presence invaluable. I’d place his chances of making the roster at 95-5.
RP - Andrew Miller: Embraced full time bullpen role in 2012 for first time in career. Posted 11.28 K/9, 3.42 BB/9 and .34 HR/9 vs. LH’s, all career bests while holding LH’s to a .429 OPS. Farrell views him as a “situational lefty out of the bullpen”. Will have competition from fellow southpaw Craig Breslow, but probabilities of winning LH specialist role sit at 90-10 barring a spring training meltdown
RP - Clayton Mortensen: Alfredo Aceves has become expendable due to the emergence of Sox pitchers who can fill his LRP niche, namely Mortensen and Morales. With zero options remaining, Mortensen will either make the roster or be DFA’d, so Boston will present him w/ every opportunity to do so. 2012: 26 relief appearances 12 appearances in which he threw 2+ innings…33.2IP, 30K, 10BB, 2.17ERA 14 appearances in which he threw <2 innings…8.1IP, 11K, 9B, 7.78ERA Ideally, Boston would stretch him into a starter in AAA Pawtucket, but with no options remaining, stretching him out in the Boston pen seems like the best option. 50-50 shot of making 25-man roster, almost solely reliant on Aceves’ production.
This assumes that Breslow starts the season on the DL. Additionally, Aceves would be added if Morales started the season on the DL (which wouldn't be such a bad idea with such depth in the pen).
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Post by mattpicard on Mar 7, 2013 13:47:39 GMT -5
For one of the Pirates games on NESN last week, the Sox and Pirates announcers shared the broadcast. The Pirates guys were talking about the Bucs barely getting any save situations for Hanrahan over the final month or so of the season, and seemed to attribute his rough finish to that. They said not to be concerned about that finish being an indicator for continued struggles this year, and said that Joel's biggest concern is just an occasional outing where he struggles to find his command.
Not exactly advanced analysis, but something to keep in mind when being concerned about his 2012 finish.
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Post by bluechip on Mar 8, 2013 1:35:31 GMT -5
Acceves had a but of a rough game for Mexico today in the WBC. 3ip, 5 hits, 2 earned runs, 0 walks, 2 strikeouts, 1 home run. He was charged with the blown save.
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Post by elguapo on Mar 14, 2013 9:58:16 GMT -5
By the way, situations like this (with Breslow likely to begin the season on the DL and Morales probably joining him) are why you gather as much depth as possible going into Spring Training. If the Red Sox had cut Aceves, not signed Uehara, or traded Miller/Bailey/etc., the bullpen would be in pretty tough shape. I don't think anyone suggested the Sox should go without bullpen depth. If the Sox had dropped a major league reliever or two they would have had room on the 40-man for a minor league reliever or two - say, Olmsted instead of Mortensen. Or they could have signed a different major league reliever, since skeptics want(ed) to sell high on Miller, for example.
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