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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 8, 2019 9:23:25 GMT -5
While the season is technically not over as the Red Sox aren't mathematically eliminated, this season's prognosis does not look good as they currently sit 4 games above .500, 16 games out of the division, 6.0 out of the Wild Card, and 5.5 behind first loser with only 46 games to go (one of which is pending going into the top of the 10th). Of course, a disappointing season always follows with chatter on potential scapegoats, who's to blame and whose jobs are at jeopardy.
I added Henry in the sense of "would you want him to put the team up for sale and get new ownership?"
Personally, the only guys I feel that should be on the chopping block is the pitching and bullpen coach. I actually find it depressing that so many people want to see Dombrowski and even Cora gone, but wanted to poll the board.
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Post by manfred on Aug 8, 2019 10:12:15 GMT -5
While the season is technically not over as the Red Sox aren't mathematically eliminated, this season's prognosis does not look good as they currently sit 4 games above .500, 16 games out of the division, 6.0 out of the Wild Card, and 5.5 behind first loser with only 46 games to go (one of which is pending going into the top of the 10th). Of course, a disappointing season always follows with chatter on potential scapegoats, who's to blame and whose jobs are at jeopardy. I added Henry in the sense of "would you want him to put the team up for sale and get new ownership?" Personally, the only guys I feel that should be on the chopping block is the pitching and bullpen coach. I actually find it depressing that so many people want to see Dombrowski and even Cora gone, but wanted to poll the board. How can anyone want either DD or Cora gone less than full season after the greatest season in Sox history? Imagine if in, say, 1986 or even 2003 someone said: the Sox will run away with the World Series and people will vilify the management within months? This season comes down to two things: players playing badly and bad mojo. I suspect that there are a bunch of proud guys who won’t want to repeat it next year.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Aug 8, 2019 11:03:49 GMT -5
Why isn't Wally on the list ?
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Aug 8, 2019 11:11:08 GMT -5
Not necessarily criticizing you for creating this thread, because you made it clear you don't think Cora or DD should go, but it's so ridiculous to me that there are people out there that do. The Red Sox are the only Boston sports team I like so maybe the Patriots have spoiled a lot of people but there is a lot of pretty wonky randomness between baseball seasons so overreacting to one bad year after a WORLD SERIES is inane. The Sox had a lot go right from them in terms of luck last year and have had a LOT go wrong this year, but there's some iteration of this team with average luck that is still easily a playoff team. Let's remember that the core of this team is still: Mookie Betts Xander Bogaerts Rafael Devers JD Martinez Chris Sale David Price
That is still a TON of talent, and the top 3 players on that list are all still young. Most teams would kill for that. DD really failed to build the bullpen, yeah, but there have been worse bullpens than this that have had less of a negative impact on a team. This is about the worst case scenario for what this team could be given the talent level and the positions at which they have their talent. I'm not even considering the possibility anyone gets fired until the middle of next season at the earliest. If this persists through next year then maybe it is a structural issue, but I feel pretty confident that this team will positively regress next season to a serious playoff contender.
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Post by incandenza on Aug 8, 2019 11:40:05 GMT -5
Not necessarily criticizing you for creating this thread, because you made it clear you don't think Cora or DD should go, but it's so ridiculous to me that there are people out there that do. The Red Sox are the only Boston sports team I like so maybe the Patriots have spoiled a lot of people but there is a lot of pretty wonky randomness between baseball seasons so overreacting to one bad year after a WORLD SERIES is inane. The Sox had a lot go right from them in terms of luck last year and have had a LOT go wrong this year, but there's some iteration of this team with average luck that is still easily a playoff team. Let's remember that the core of this team is still: Mookie Betts Xander Bogaerts Rafael Devers JD Martinez Chris Sale David PriceThat is still a TON of talent, and the top 3 players on that list are all still young. Most teams would kill for that. DD really failed to build the bullpen, yeah, but there have been worse bullpens than this that have had less of a negative impact on a team. This is about the worst case scenario for what this team could be given the talent level and the positions at which they have their talent. I'm not even considering the possibility anyone gets fired until the middle of next season at the earliest. If this persists through next year then maybe it is a structural issue, but I feel pretty confident that this team will positively regress next season to a serious playoff contender. Spot on. Even in this terrible, horrible, underperforming year these six guys alone are on pace for about 30 fWAR. Add in Benintendi and Vazquez and you're up to about 37. It's a phenomenal core. The only slight concern I have is that Dombrowski's attentiveness to the more remote corners of the major league roster has never been his strong suit. Hopefully he recognizes that he needs to do a better job at that this off-season.
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Post by James Dunne on Aug 8, 2019 11:47:00 GMT -5
Not necessarily criticizing you for creating this thread, because you made it clear you don't think Cora or DD should go, but it's so ridiculous to me that there are people out there that do. The Red Sox are the only Boston sports team I like so maybe the Patriots have spoiled a lot of people but there is a lot of pretty wonky randomness between baseball seasons so overreacting to one bad year after a WORLD SERIES is inane. The Sox had a lot go right from them in terms of luck last year and have had a LOT go wrong this year, but there's some iteration of this team with average luck that is still easily a playoff team. Let's remember that the core of this team is still: Mookie Betts Xander Bogaerts Rafael Devers JD Martinez Chris Sale David PriceThat is still a TON of talent, and the top 3 players on that list are all still young. Most teams would kill for that. DD really failed to build the bullpen, yeah, but there have been worse bullpens than this that have had less of a negative impact on a team. This is about the worst case scenario for what this team could be given the talent level and the positions at which they have their talent. I'm not even considering the possibility anyone gets fired until the middle of next season at the earliest. If this persists through next year then maybe it is a structural issue, but I feel pretty confident that this team will positively regress next season to a serious playoff contender. Spot on. Even in this terrible, horrible, underperforming year these six guys alone are on pace for about 30 fWAR. Add in Benintendi and Vazquez and you're up to about 37. It's a phenomenal core. The only slight concern I have is that Dombrowski's attentiveness to the more remote corners of the major league roster has never been his strong suit. Hopefully he recognizes that he needs to do a better job at that this off-season. I'm with you. I do think the questionable back-end roster decisions have come back to hurt the Red Sox this year in a way they didn't in 2018, and that is important. But it's not a reason to dump a guy who gets the big stuff correct, especially not nine months after winning the World Series.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 8, 2019 12:03:20 GMT -5
Spot on. Even in this terrible, horrible, underperforming year these six guys alone are on pace for about 30 fWAR. Add in Benintendi and Vazquez and you're up to about 37. It's a phenomenal core. The only slight concern I have is that Dombrowski's attentiveness to the more remote corners of the major league roster has never been his strong suit. Hopefully he recognizes that he needs to do a better job at that this off-season. I'm with you. I do think the questionable back-end roster decisions have come back to hurt the Red Sox this year in a way they didn't in 2018, and that is important. But it's not a reason to dump a guy who gets the big stuff correct, especially not nine months after winning the World Series. A flaw in Dombrowski besides the back-end decision making is his inability to build a farm. With that said, it's hard to do when you're always in constant "win now" mode and simultaneously, if you can count the number of bad trades on one hand then it's likely that there aren't too many guys he parted with that are terribly missed. It's not like having Margot, Baseabe, Dubon, et makes them any better. I fault him for not getting enough value back for Anderson Espinoza, but he was clearly right in getting rid of the guy while he still had value. Management should be held accountable for how they started the season, but they shouldn't be fired. I lean on the pitching coaches because not one pitcher has exceeded expectations while almost all of them under-performed. Someone is going to be sacrificed to appease the fanbase that next year will be different and those are the likely candidates. I am concerned of the rumblings that Henry might be looking to distance himself from Dombrowski. I feel like that's very George Steinbrenner-ish if he fires him after winning the division 3 years in a row and a World Series just because this 1 season was a disappointment. If I were a GM with a resume I'd look at the Red Sox situation as very volatile and might not feel comfortable taking the job.
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Post by gerry on Aug 8, 2019 12:16:19 GMT -5
I 100% agreed with you until reading a surprising recent Globe article by Shaughnessy in which he states DD is likely to go because he has increasingly become isolated with his buddies Wren and LaRusso, and has few friends inside the walls of Fenway Park. I know CHB the assasin also fits that description, but if DDo has become an island, and someone’s gonna get blamed for 2019’s many failures, it may be the de facto GM. CHB suggests Romero to move up, which could be a genius move.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 8, 2019 12:20:49 GMT -5
I 100% agreed with you until reading a surprising recent Globe article by Shaughnessy in which he states DD is likely to go because he has increasingly become isolated with his buddies Wren and LaRusso, and has few friends inside the walls of Fenway Park. I know CHB the assasin also fits that description, but if DDo has become an island, and someone’s gonna get blamed for 2019’s many failures, it may be the de facto GM. CHB suggests Romero, which could be a genius move. I mean, should we be surprised this organization would perform a hatchet job on a guy who is out the door? Just look at Theo and Francona. I'm pretty sure Larry and Cherrington also got blasted on their way out. Henry seems to have a problem with just letting management go without lighting a bridge on fire.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Aug 8, 2019 12:21:23 GMT -5
Spot on. Even in this terrible, horrible, underperforming year these six guys alone are on pace for about 30 fWAR. Add in Benintendi and Vazquez and you're up to about 37. It's a phenomenal core. The only slight concern I have is that Dombrowski's attentiveness to the more remote corners of the major league roster has never been his strong suit. Hopefully he recognizes that he needs to do a better job at that this off-season. I'm with you. I do think the questionable back-end roster decisions have come back to hurt the Red Sox this year in a way they didn't in 2018, and that is important. But it's not a reason to dump a guy who gets the big stuff correct, especially not nine months after winning the World Series. Would you agree though that this bullpen has been pretty unlucky? It's clearly a bad collection of pitchers and DD could have done a much better job constructing it, but it almost feels impossible for any group to be THIS bad.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 8, 2019 12:21:41 GMT -5
I 100% agreed with you until reading a surprising recent Globe article by Shaughnessy in which he states DD is likely to go because he has increasingly become isolated with his buddies Wren and LaRusso, and has few friends inside the walls of Fenway Park. I know CHB the assasin also fits that description, but if DDo has become an island, and someone’s gonna get blamed for 2019’s many failures, it may be the de facto GM. CHB suggests Romero to move up, which could be a genius move. Romero isn't really a genius move. It's the move that must be made at some point or else they're incredibly stupid.
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Post by carmenfanzone on Aug 8, 2019 12:22:46 GMT -5
Isn't DD in his mid 60's? How sure are we that he wants to keep doing this?
If the pitching coach and bullpen coach make the list of people who maybe should be replaced, shouldn't Bannister be on the list also? Not sure we seem to be developing a lot of starting pitching in the minors the last couple of years.
If we could get someone from an organization that consistently develops pitching or gets the best out of pitchers that it acquires, I would be onboard in trying to upgrade in this area. However, I wouldn't fire our current people unless we had someone we think is a clear improvement already lined up.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Aug 8, 2019 12:22:58 GMT -5
I'm with you. I do think the questionable back-end roster decisions have come back to hurt the Red Sox this year in a way they didn't in 2018, and that is important. But it's not a reason to dump a guy who gets the big stuff correct, especially not nine months after winning the World Series. A flaw in Dombrowski besides the back-end decision making is his inability to build a farm. With that said, it's hard to do when you're always in constant "win now" mode and simultaneously, if you can count the number of bad trades on one hand then it's likely that there aren't too many guys he parted with that are terribly missed. It's not like having Margot, Baseabe, Dubon, et makes them any better. I fault him for not getting enough value back for Anderson Espinoza, but he was clearly right in getting rid of the guy while he still had value. Management should be held accountable for how they started the season, but they shouldn't be fired. I lean on the pitching coaches because not one pitcher has exceeded expectations while almost all of them under-performed. Someone is going to be sacrificed to appease the fanbase that next year will be different and those are the likely candidates. I am concerned of the rumblings that Henry might be looking to distance himself from Dombrowski. I feel like that's very George Steinbrenner-ish if he fires him after winning the division 3 years in a row and a World Series just because this 1 season was a disappointment. If I were a GM with a resume I'd look at the Red Sox situation as very volatile and might not feel comfortable taking the job. I think everyone jumped on the narrative when he made all of the "win now" trades, and they obviously paid off, but I've been pleasantly surprised at the job Dombrowski has done restocking the lower minors with talent.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Aug 8, 2019 12:24:00 GMT -5
Isn't DD in his mid 60's? How sure are we that he wants to keep doing this? If the pitching coach and bullpen coach make the list of people who maybe should be replaced, shouldn't Bannister be on the list also? Not sure we seem to be developing a lot of starting pitching in the minors the last couple of years. If we could get someone from an organization that consistently develops pitching or gets the best out of pitchers that it acquires, I would be onboard in trying to upgrade in this area. However, I wouldn't fire our current people unless we had someone we think is a clear improvement already lined up. They're not developing starting pitchers in the minors because they're not trying to. You can probably count on one hand the guys they've signed to be starters in the last 2 or 3 drafts.
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Post by incandenza on Aug 8, 2019 12:24:09 GMT -5
I'm with you. I do think the questionable back-end roster decisions have come back to hurt the Red Sox this year in a way they didn't in 2018, and that is important. But it's not a reason to dump a guy who gets the big stuff correct, especially not nine months after winning the World Series. A flaw in Dombrowski besides the back-end decision making is his inability to build a farm. With that said, it's hard to do when you're always in constant "win now" mode and simultaneously, if you can count the number of bad trades on one hand then it's likely that there aren't too many guys he parted with that are terribly missed. It's not like having Margot, Baseabe, Dubon, et makes them any better. I fault him for not getting enough value back for Anderson Espinoza, but he was clearly right in getting rid of the guy while he still had value. I have no interest in re-litigating the Kimbrel trade, but Margot is on pace for a 2+ WAR season and may just have flipped a switch - he's hitting .254/.367/.485 since June 1st, and looks even better since mid-June. This Sox team could definitely have used him, both now and as a low-cost replacement for JBJ.
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Post by carmenfanzone on Aug 8, 2019 12:32:13 GMT -5
Isn't DD in his mid 60's? How sure are we that he wants to keep doing this? If the pitching coach and bullpen coach make the list of people who maybe should be replaced, shouldn't Bannister be on the list also? Not sure we seem to be developing a lot of starting pitching in the minors the last couple of years. If we could get someone from an organization that consistently develops pitching or gets the best out of pitchers that it acquires, I would be onboard in trying to upgrade in this area. However, I wouldn't fire our current people unless we had someone we think is a clear improvement already lined up. They're not developing starting pitchers in the minors because they're not trying to. You can probably count on one hand the guys they've signed to be starters in the last 2 or 3 drafts.
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Post by carmenfanzone on Aug 8, 2019 12:35:20 GMT -5
They're not developing starting pitchers in the minors because they're not trying to. You can probably count on one hand the guys they've signed to be starters in the last 2 or 3 drafts. If they really are not trying to develop starting pitching in the minors, then whomever made that decision needs to go. I do not believe that is the case. I thought, for example, that they were trying to develop D. Hernandez as a starter but that it was just not working out and so they switched him to the bullpen.
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Post by patford on Aug 8, 2019 12:38:04 GMT -5
I 100% agreed with you until reading a surprising recent Globe article by Shaughnessy in which he states DD is likely to go because he has increasingly become isolated with his buddies Wren and LaRusso, and has few friends inside the walls of Fenway Park. I know CHB the assasin also fits that description, but if DDo has become an island, and someone’s gonna get blamed for 2019’s many failures, it may be the de facto GM. CHB suggests Romero, which could be a genius move. I mean, should we be surprised this organization would perform a hatchet job on a guy who is out the door? Just look at Theo and Francona. I'm pretty sure Larry and Cherrington also got blasted on their way out. Henry seems to have a problem with just letting management go without lighting a bridge on fire. With the Indians falling short again and again since Francona has been there I have zero doubt if he was still with the Sox and he had the same lack of success at least half the fans would incessantly refer to him to him as "Fran-coma."
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 8, 2019 12:45:06 GMT -5
A flaw in Dombrowski besides the back-end decision making is his inability to build a farm. With that said, it's hard to do when you're always in constant "win now" mode and simultaneously, if you can count the number of bad trades on one hand then it's likely that there aren't too many guys he parted with that are terribly missed. It's not like having Margot, Baseabe, Dubon, et makes them any better. I fault him for not getting enough value back for Anderson Espinoza, but he was clearly right in getting rid of the guy while he still had value. I have no interest in re-litigating the Kimbrel trade, but Margot is on pace for a 2+ WAR season and may just have flipped a switch - he's hitting .254/.367/.485 since June 1st, and looks even better since mid-June. This Sox team could definitely have used him, both now and as a low-cost replacement for JBJ. I mean, that's a good low-cost replacement for JBJ, but that's not top 50 (I think he was top 25) prospect in baseball center piece and what they got from Kimbrel was great (including a very lucky postseason run from him). You can find Manuel Margot on the market, just maybe not at his cost. If he continues improving then it might be a good debate to revisit. The Padres also have been sticking with him through his enormous struggles which is something he likely wouldn't have gotten in Boston. I mean, now that he's producing value it does make it interesting.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 8, 2019 12:46:36 GMT -5
I mean, should we be surprised this organization would perform a hatchet job on a guy who is out the door? Just look at Theo and Francona. I'm pretty sure Larry and Cherrington also got blasted on their way out. Henry seems to have a problem with just letting management go without lighting a bridge on fire. With the Indians falling short again and again since Francona has been there I have zero doubt if he was still with the Sox and he had the same lack of success at least half the fans would incessantly refer to him to him as "Fran-coma." The Red Sox fan base absolutely would, but he's been very good for the Indians. They were suppose to be sellers this year.
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Post by manfred on Aug 8, 2019 12:49:25 GMT -5
A flaw in Dombrowski besides the back-end decision making is his inability to build a farm. With that said, it's hard to do when you're always in constant "win now" mode and simultaneously, if you can count the number of bad trades on one hand then it's likely that there aren't too many guys he parted with that are terribly missed. It's not like having Margot, Baseabe, Dubon, et makes them any better. I fault him for not getting enough value back for Anderson Espinoza, but he was clearly right in getting rid of the guy while he still had value. I have no interest in re-litigating the Kimbrel trade, but Margot is on pace for a 2+ WAR season and may just have flipped a switch - he's hitting .254/.367/.485 since June 1st, and looks even better since mid-June. This Sox team could definitely have used him, both now and as a low-cost replacement for JBJ. That.... sorta looks like relitigating?
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 8, 2019 12:54:11 GMT -5
A flaw in Dombrowski besides the back-end decision making is his inability to build a farm. With that said, it's hard to do when you're always in constant "win now" mode and simultaneously, if you can count the number of bad trades on one hand then it's likely that there aren't too many guys he parted with that are terribly missed. It's not like having Margot, Baseabe, Dubon, et makes them any better. I fault him for not getting enough value back for Anderson Espinoza, but he was clearly right in getting rid of the guy while he still had value. I have no interest in re-litigating the Kimbrel trade, but Margot is on pace for a 2+ WAR season and may just have flipped a switch - he's hitting .254/.367/.485 since June 1st, and looks even better since mid-June. This Sox team could definitely have used him, both now and as a low-cost replacement for JBJ. Those are exactly the kinds of guys you want as depth. Would be a perfect compliment to Benintendi and JBJ the last 2 years rather than putting JDM out there.
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Post by manfred on Aug 8, 2019 12:54:40 GMT -5
I have no interest in re-litigating the Kimbrel trade, but Margot is on pace for a 2+ WAR season and may just have flipped a switch - he's hitting .254/.367/.485 since June 1st, and looks even better since mid-June. This Sox team could definitely have used him, both now and as a low-cost replacement for JBJ. I mean, that's a good low-cost replacement for JBJ, but that's not top 50 (I think he was top 25) prospect in baseball center piece and what they got from Kimbrel was great (including a very lucky postseason run from him). You can find Manuel Margot on the market, just maybe not at his cost. If he continues improving then it might be a good debate to revisit. The Padres also have been sticking with him through his enormous struggles which is something he likely wouldn't have gotten in Boston. I mean, now that he's producing value it does make it interesting. He is producing value in WAR.... ish. He is 1.2 and JBJ is .9. But their stats are remarkably similar. Margot as a replacement is little more than a push. If Margot looks good to people this year, then maybe ease up on JBJ, who is about the same guy.
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Post by incandenza on Aug 8, 2019 12:58:47 GMT -5
I have no interest in re-litigating the Kimbrel trade, but Margot is on pace for a 2+ WAR season and may just have flipped a switch - he's hitting .254/.367/.485 since June 1st, and looks even better since mid-June. This Sox team could definitely have used him, both now and as a low-cost replacement for JBJ. That.... sorta looks like relitigating? I'm just saying, people might want to update their judgments about Margot's value. That's separate from the question of whether it was worth trading him to get Kimbrel. But since you asked... [5000 words on reliever value/Kimbrel's playoff performance/team-building philosophy/contract values/oracular consultations re: Logan Allen...]
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Post by soxfansince67 on Aug 8, 2019 13:14:46 GMT -5
With the payroll what it is, quality of players (at least, based on last year - and this year's core is basically the same with the few key pitching losses that went unreplaced), and last year's excellence, looking at how this year has unfolded...something's gotta give if they miss the playoffs. You can't fire all of the players - a message has to be sent...we shall see what transpires. Even Though Cora had what seems like a poor approach to spring training into the season, I suspect he is safe.
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