SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
|
Post by James Dunne on Aug 8, 2019 13:18:05 GMT -5
I'm with you. I do think the questionable back-end roster decisions have come back to hurt the Red Sox this year in a way they didn't in 2018, and that is important. But it's not a reason to dump a guy who gets the big stuff correct, especially not nine months after winning the World Series. Would you agree though that this bullpen has been pretty unlucky? It's clearly a bad collection of pitchers and DD could have done a much better job constructing it, but it almost feels impossible for any group to be THIS bad. I think they've been unlucky in how much they've had to use a bullpen that they did a poor job constructing. There was obviously a belief that the five starters and three bridge-y/swingman types (Velazquez, Wright, and Johnson) would eat enough innings that the bullpens flaws wouldn't be exposed. I think that was a reasonable, sensible plan, but hoo boy has that not happened. But Barnes is really the only true reliever who has been notably worse than I'd have expected.
|
|
|
Post by iakovos11 on Aug 8, 2019 13:29:25 GMT -5
With the payroll what it is, quality of players (at least, based on last year - and this year's core is basically the same with the few key pitching losses that went unreplaced), and last year's excellence, looking at how this year has unfolded...something's gotta give if they miss the playoffs. You can't fire all of the players - a message has to be sent...we shall see what transpires. Even Though Cora had what seems like a poor approach to spring training into the season, I suspect he is safe. Why does a message have to best sent? I honestly think the long and intense playoffs last year had some effect on the slow start (and maybe Cora's supposed mismanagement of spring training, but then again, maybe he kind of needed to give guys more rest due the extra work in October). The new seams on the ball is apparently having some effect on Sale's slider and Porcello is having one of his off years. Things aren't going their way this year. Not saying some things couldn't have been done better, but they just need to play better next year.
|
|
|
Post by pedrofanforever45 on Aug 8, 2019 14:00:39 GMT -5
You won the dang world series, but hey let's rehash dumb trades like Buttrey and Margot.
Flags fly forever. Kimbrel was worth a lot in value last year. Kinsler had key hits in a postseason run.
My vote was for Henry because if he doesn't put his money where his mouth is, then he isn't good enough to own a Red Sox team. One of the top 10 franchises worth in value in sports. Having the top payroll isn't a good enough excuse. If he had reached for a little more, a lot more could have been done this year. Plain and simple. He's driven to keep budgets. Not to go all out to win.
|
|
|
Post by soxfansince67 on Aug 8, 2019 14:09:49 GMT -5
With the payroll what it is, quality of players (at least, based on last year - and this year's core is basically the same with the few key pitching losses that went unreplaced), and last year's excellence, looking at how this year has unfolded...something's gotta give if they miss the playoffs. You can't fire all of the players - a message has to be sent...we shall see what transpires. Even Though Cora had what seems like a poor approach to spring training into the season, I suspect he is safe. Why does a message have to best sent? I honestly think the long and intense playoffs last year had some effect on the slow start (and maybe Cora's supposed mismanagement of spring training, but then again, maybe he kind of needed to give guys more rest due the extra work in October). The new seams on the ball is apparently having some effect on Sale's slider and Porcello is having one of his off years. Things aren't going their way this year. Not saying some things couldn't have been done better, but they just need to play better next year. Didn't seem to effect Astros, Dodgers, Yankees. This team looks to be just folding to these long watching eyes, and I sense a deeper issue.
|
|
|
Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 8, 2019 14:28:53 GMT -5
You won the dang world series, but hey let's rehash dumb trades like Buttrey and Margot. Flags fly forever. Kimbrel was worth a lot in value last year. Kinsler had key hits in a postseason run. My vote was for Henry because if he doesn't put his money where his mouth is, then he isn't good enough to own a Red Sox team. One of the top 10 franchises worth in value in sports. Having the top payroll isn't a good enough excuse. If he had reached for a little more, a lot more could have been done this year. Plain and simple. He's driven to keep budgets. Not to go all out to win. Exactly why I put him on the list.
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Aug 8, 2019 14:33:00 GMT -5
Why does a message have to best sent? I honestly think the long and intense playoffs last year had some effect on the slow start (and maybe Cora's supposed mismanagement of spring training, but then again, maybe he kind of needed to give guys more rest due the extra work in October). The new seams on the ball is apparently having some effect on Sale's slider and Porcello is having one of his off years. Things aren't going their way this year. Not saying some things couldn't have been done better, but they just need to play better next year. Didn't seem to effect Astros, Dodgers, Yankees. This team looks to be just folding to these long watching eyes, and I sense a deeper issue. You mean the teams that Cora beat in the games that mattered with his aggressive use of his pitching staff?
|
|
cdj
Veteran
Posts: 14,066
|
Post by cdj on Aug 8, 2019 14:36:27 GMT -5
....nobody
|
|
orion09
Veteran
Posts: 1,220
Member is Online
|
Post by orion09 on Aug 8, 2019 14:37:42 GMT -5
I just hope they don’t cut LeVangie loose without at least reassigning him. He’s been with the Sox forever and seems to be an especially competent baseball guy. Concerned that, given how poorly the pitching has performed, he may fall under the ax.
|
|
|
Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Aug 8, 2019 14:39:29 GMT -5
If they really are not trying to develop starting pitching in the minors, then whomever made that decision needs to go. I do not believe that is the case. I thought, for example, that they were trying to develop D. Hernandez as a starter but that it was just not working out and so they switched him to the bullpen. It is the case, and I'm pretty sure Chris and Ian even brought it up when they interviewed the Red Sox scouting guy (was it Hazen) on their pod. It's definitely been mentioned multiple times and is pretty obvious when you look at their draft results from the last couple years. As far as the person coming up with that decision needing to go, I'd disagree. Developing starters is such a crapshoot between the heightened injury risk and how difficult it is to be a starter in general. When you have the chance to get value like they did with Song you take it, but I am in favor of being more cautious in that aspect.
|
|
|
Post by soxfansince67 on Aug 8, 2019 14:41:22 GMT -5
Didn't seem to effect Astros, Dodgers, Yankees. This team looks to be just folding to these long watching eyes, and I sense a deeper issue. You mean the teams that Cora beat in the games that mattered with his aggressive use of his pitching staff? Yep. Those teams. Winning last year was sweet. The way the team is playing in general this year is not so sweet at all. I have my opinions, others here have theirs - fair enough.
|
|
|
Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Aug 8, 2019 14:42:49 GMT -5
For the people that do think one of Dombrowski or Cora should go, who is the replacement? You can't call for someone's head when there isn't an obviously better candidate to step in. These things don't just magically self correct, and I certainly don't know who would be an improvement. I highly doubt we'd be able to poach anyone from the Astros, so if someone else is brought in it's either another DD (well known, track record but flawed) or someone entirely unproven and I know that a lot of people here would HATE if they took a gamble on an up-and-comer.
|
|
|
Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 8, 2019 14:59:56 GMT -5
Didn't seem to effect Astros, Dodgers, Yankees. This team looks to be just folding to these long watching eyes, and I sense a deeper issue. You mean the teams that Cora beat in the games that mattered with his aggressive use of his pitching staff? The Dodgers have been to 2 straight World Series and look poised to go to a 3rd. The Astros 2 years ago won 101 games, the division and the World Series. They then won 103 games, the division and lost to the Sox in the ALDS. This year they're running away with the division and look like the best team in baseball. I don't think using staters out of the bullpen made them all inept the following year.
|
|
|
Post by Smittyw on Aug 8, 2019 15:02:49 GMT -5
Sandy Leon.
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Aug 8, 2019 15:10:42 GMT -5
You mean the teams that Cora beat in the games that mattered with his aggressive use of his pitching staff? The Dodgers have been to 2 straight World Series and look poised to go to a 3rd. The Astros 2 years ago won 101 games, the division and the World Series. They then won 103 games, the division and lost to the Sox in the ALDS. This year they're running away with the division and look like the best team in baseball. I don't think using staters out of the bullpen made them all inept the following year. The Astros have turned over a huge chunk of their rotation. The Dodgers have actually had a fair share of pitcher injuries and durability issues, but also Ross Stripling is their 8th-best starter so it's worked out. And also, "Player A isn't fatigued so Player B, who was used differently and is a different player entirely should not be" isn't really the way it works. And I'm not even saying with any certainty that the long season is why Sale has been less effective and Eovaldi got hurt. I am saying that it doesn't work out that the Dodgers having a lot of depth and the Astros having a lot of health aren't in any way pieces of evidence that fatigue isn't a factor with the Red Sox. "Justin Verlander is durable and so that's why I don't think the long 2018 is a reason Chris Sale isn't himself" is very obviously not how it goes.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Aug 8, 2019 15:27:59 GMT -5
With the payroll what it is, quality of players (at least, based on last year - and this year's core is basically the same with the few key pitching losses that went unreplaced), and last year's excellence, looking at how this year has unfolded...something's gotta give if they miss the playoffs. You can't fire all of the players - a message has to be sent...we shall see what transpires. Even Though Cora had what seems like a poor approach to spring training into the season, I suspect he is safe. Why does a message have to best sent? I honestly think the long and intense playoffs last year had some effect on the slow start (and maybe Cora's supposed mismanagement of spring training, but then again, maybe he kind of needed to give guys more rest due the extra work in October). The new seams on the ball is apparently having some effect on Sale's slider and Porcello is having one of his off years. Things aren't going their way this year. Not saying some things couldn't have been done better, but they just need to play better next year. Because the only explanation for poor performance for some people is that they don't care or aren't trying.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Aug 8, 2019 15:30:16 GMT -5
You mean the teams that Cora beat in the games that mattered with his aggressive use of his pitching staff? The Dodgers have been to 2 straight World Series and look poised to go to a 3rd. The Astros 2 years ago won 101 games, the division and the World Series. They then won 103 games, the division and lost to the Sox in the ALDS. This year they're running away with the division and look like the best team in baseball. I don't think using staters out of the bullpen made them all inept the following year. The Dodgers and Astros built the strength of their teams with depth. The Red Sox did not. We can't go back in time and win the World Series a better way. And the Dodgers still haven't won.
|
|
|
Post by ryan24 on Aug 8, 2019 15:31:49 GMT -5
The sox are having an off year. Last year they ALL had a great year. If you want to make someone the fall guy the point has been made and is valid, who do you have in mind to replace them? The sox used up a lot of this year's luck last year. Next year with the same team they will probably rebound and do much better. Pearce last year vs this year. Evoldi this year vs last year HUGE swings. The biggest hole in the organization is starting pitching. THE system does not develop any. End result, you tie up huge resources to bring in price and sale.Maybe the answer is not making a point of letting someone take the fall. Maybe it is to find someone from the dodger 's, braves, or rays who develop pitching and ADD someone.
|
|
|
Post by jerrygarciaparra on Aug 8, 2019 16:49:54 GMT -5
I don't think anyone will get fired and I wouldn't vote for any changes. I would point out the even Cherington got 2 years of bad teams before getting chopped, and he was still offered a job, at that. I think Henry is more of a critical thinker about this stuff.
|
|
gerry
Veteran
Enter your message here...
Posts: 1,667
|
Post by gerry on Aug 8, 2019 17:08:41 GMT -5
You won the dang world series, but hey let's rehash dumb trades like Buttrey and Margot. Flags fly forever. Kimbrel was worth a lot in value last year. Kinsler had key hits in a postseason run. My vote was for Henry because if he doesn't put his money where his mouth is, then he isn't good enough to own a Red Sox team. One of the top 10 franchises worth in value in sports. Having the top payroll isn't a good enough excuse. If he had reached for a little more, a lot more could have been done this year. Plain and simple. He's driven to keep budgets. Not to go all out to win. Wow! Pedro, you are amazing in your perseveration. Why is having the highest payroll in baseball irrelevant to you; or facing the highest tax threshold with an ~82% tax hit; or even losing the first round pick again, and the associated pool $$ That is very relevant in this dicussion. We both know full well that, with the Rotation being this years biggest problem, another reliever or two would not have made much difference in the standings. Maybe in a better spot for WC or WC#2, but maybe not. If not, the Sox losing another 1st round pick And not even make the WC would be fireable, right? I too wish they had done something, but am glad they didn’t blow the 2020 draft to do it.
|
|
|
Post by pedrofanforever45 on Aug 8, 2019 17:12:43 GMT -5
You won the dang world series, but hey let's rehash dumb trades like Buttrey and Margot. Flags fly forever. Kimbrel was worth a lot in value last year. Kinsler had key hits in a postseason run. My vote was for Henry because if he doesn't put his money where his mouth is, then he isn't good enough to own a Red Sox team. One of the top 10 franchises worth in value in sports. Having the top payroll isn't a good enough excuse. If he had reached for a little more, a lot more could have been done this year. Plain and simple. He's driven to keep budgets. Not to go all out to win. Wow! Pedro, you are amazing in your perseveration. Why is having the highest payroll in baseball irrelevant to you; or facing the highest tax threshold with an ~82% tax hit; or even losing the first round pick again, and the associated pool $$ That is very relevant in this dicussion. We both know full well that, with the Rotation being this years biggest problem, another reliever or two would not have made much difference in the standings. Maybe in a better spot for WC or WC#2, but maybe not. If not, the Sox losing another 1st round pick And not even make the WC would be fireable, right? I too wish they had done something, but am glad they didn’t blow the 2020 draft to do it. The Red Sox (John Henry) are probably making 2 if not 3 times amount of that money between tv money, ticket sales, etc. That's the part everyone misses out on. This dude is crying poor while making millions of dollars. It's mind boggling Gerry. All he had to do is extend himself for 2 freaking years, and he cried endlessly through both of them. He stopped spending in this past year.
|
|
gerry
Veteran
Enter your message here...
Posts: 1,667
|
Post by gerry on Aug 8, 2019 17:26:53 GMT -5
Like I said, Pedro, you are amazing. And I agree that Kinsler made some important plays. He certainly helped the Sox get to and win the 2018 WS, the fourth of this century (which, btw, Henry and co paid huge bucks for.).
|
|
|
Post by soxfaninnj on Aug 8, 2019 18:13:14 GMT -5
This seriously has to be the stupidest thread in the history of the internet. The Red Sox won 108 games last year and eliminated Yankees in Yankee stadium and won the World Series not even a year later we want to get rid of the owner? The gm? The manager? Because we are behind in the wild card standings. This website message board is turning into a dumpster fire.
|
|
|
Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 8, 2019 19:08:33 GMT -5
This seriously has to be the stupidest thread in the history of the internet. The Red Sox won 108 games last year and eliminated Yankees in Yankee stadium and won the World Series not even a year later we want to get rid of the owner? The gm? The manager? Because we are behind in the wild card standings. This website message board is turning into a dumpster fire. You say that, but then I think the smear Dombrowski campaign has already started. I wouldn't let him go, but I don't think CHB pulled that story out of nowhere and the ownership hasn't said anything to refute him.
|
|
|
Post by jimmydugan on Aug 8, 2019 21:07:40 GMT -5
Would you agree though that this bullpen has been pretty unlucky? It's clearly a bad collection of pitchers and DD could have done a much better job constructing it, but it almost feels impossible for any group to be THIS bad. I think they've been unlucky in how much they've had to use a bullpen that they did a poor job constructing. There was obviously a belief that the five starters and three bridge-y/swingman types (Velazquez, Wright, and Johnson) would eat enough innings that the bullpens flaws wouldn't be exposed. I think that was a reasonable, sensible plan, but hoo boy has that not happened. But Barnes is really the only true reliever who has been notably worse than I'd have expected. I agree whole heartedly on the rest, but really? Honest question. i'm sure you've seen more of him over the last few years. But he's top 15 in XFIP-, SIERA. Top 10% XBA, XSLG. It really seems like he's gotten better over the years as the Sox challenged him more each year. I'm completely fine giving him the ball in high leverage situations.
|
|
|
Post by philsbosoxfan on Aug 8, 2019 21:18:07 GMT -5
This seriously has to be the stupidest thread in the history of the internet. The Red Sox won 108 games last year and eliminated Yankees in Yankee stadium and won the World Series not even a year later we want to get rid of the owner? The gm? The manager? Because we are behind in the wild card standings. This website message board is turning into a dumpster fire. Couldn't agree more. Not sure my why isn't Wally on the list comment was deleted by the mods but it's pretty much an equivalent question. This is the most successful baseball team of the millennium. Can we be any more spoiled ?
|
|
|