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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 9, 2019 11:19:23 GMT -5
Usual great Tweet by Speier.
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Post by James Dunne on Sept 9, 2019 11:25:00 GMT -5
John Farrell was also given four full years after winning the championship, and he finished in last place twice. His success gave him the right to fail. Did Dombrowski deserve the same after his success? There's not an easy answer to that.
I'm definitely of the opinion that, right or wrong, this move could've been handled better.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Sept 9, 2019 11:33:08 GMT -5
There are some interesting takes out here. I trust the organization feels they made the right decision, but this is kind of becoming a calling card for the org...and it doesn't look good.
The World Series was the pinnacle, but we are also talking about a guy who got 3 straight division titles....never happened before.
I just have a hard time with the synopsis that change is coming and he wasn't the right guy moving forward. That could mean anything.
Whatever...it isn't a big deal to me...I root.for the letters on the front of the jersey..... everything else is just a supporting function.
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Post by incandenza on Sept 9, 2019 11:33:39 GMT -5
Usual great Tweet by Speier. Maybe this is the right, Moneyballesque market inefficiency-exploiting approach to the GM position. There's an assumption that the GM ought to be a quasi-permanent fixture in the organization, but managers and players are taken on and let go as the circumstances of the team change - why not do the same thing with the GM? As I mentioned above, in the last 15 years the Red Sox have won more World Series than any other team, despite cycling through 3 GMs. Maybe that's not a coincidence.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Sept 9, 2019 11:38:40 GMT -5
It was pretty clear when Hazen wanted out that DD was the autocratic type. Maybe they could have handled it better, but I think moving on makes sense at this juncture. I’m curious to see who they bring in and what transpires this offseason, because it does seem like major changes are coming. Beane would be amazing, but he has the most secure job in the sport and Boston’s GM role has been the least secure, so I have a hard time seeing how Henry could sweeten the pot enough to get him interested. Would he? What exactly is Bill Beane's superpower at this point? He likes to trade away good young players with years of control left, which makes sense in Oakland and absolutely zero sense in Boston. I think he's a good GM where he's at, but it seems like you'd be getting the exact same situation that you (supposedly) have now with Dombrowski, a guy coming from outside the organization who has his own way of doing things that clashes with the existing front office personal.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Sept 9, 2019 11:41:45 GMT -5
I really think this is it. DD has an autocratic style. Perhaps other voices were being stifled as a chasm was being created between DD, Wren, and LaRussa versus the other voices in the organization. This dovetails with what Shaughnessy wrote and he is connected within the organization.I do wish they would hold a press conference, but what are they going to say? People weren't getting along well enough to have a cohesive organization? That will come through back channels as I'm sure more comes out. Wow, what are the odds? Do the Red Sox not realize they can just put out a press release?
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 9, 2019 11:45:55 GMT -5
It was pretty clear when Hazen wanted out that DD was the autocratic type. Maybe they could have handled it better, but I think moving on makes sense at this juncture. I’m curious to see who they bring in and what transpires this offseason, because it does seem like major changes are coming. Beane would be amazing, but he has the most secure job in the sport and Boston’s GM role has been the least secure, so I have a hard time seeing how Henry could sweeten the pot enough to get him interested. Would he? What exactly is Bill Beane's superpower at this point? He likes to trade away good young players with years of control left, which makes sense in Oakland and absolutely zero sense in Boston. I think he's a good GM where he's at, but it seems like you'd be getting the exact same situation that you (supposedly) have now with Dombrowski, a guy coming from outside the organization who has his own way of doing things that clashes with the existing front office personal. You have a point with him clashing with the existing front office personnel. Can't we say that about any outside person they bring in though? I don't think he likes to trade away good young talent, however. He's kind of forced into doing it before they become expensive via arbitration. He has a ability to find young good talent seemingly out of no where, too.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 9, 2019 11:48:06 GMT -5
Let's say you have to trade Betts is that something we think Romero can do better than DD? I think it's fair to say DD might not be the most creative GM, but he knows talent. Seems kinda crazy to have a first time GM and be like OK go trade the best player the Red Sox have had since what Clemens? That won't be an easy trade.
Sorry but ownership needs to take the blame for this mess. You hire a guy to go all in and win. He does just that, yet then right after you want to keep winning, yet also reduce spending and rebuild the farm system. Which doesn't give him many choices. This fully backs up my theory that DD wanted to make trades at the deadline and ownership got involved and stopped it. Didn't want to spend the money. If I was DD I would have a disconnect with ownership. Like why the try and win now, when you really didn't want to fully commit? If you wanted to reset why not stress that so we don't sign Eovaldi?
Heck if this is all about long-term have the balls to sell off at the deadline. The media would have killed you, yet it would have been the right thing if you plan on resetting next year. You might have been able to get those young cost controlled starters you really need if you would have traded a Workman at his peak value. The GM does what the owner wants and our owner hasn't been great at picking a path. So we are stuck in no man's land so the fans aren't totally pissed, yet not doing what's best for this year or future years. It's just stupid!
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,907
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Post by nomar on Sept 9, 2019 11:54:32 GMT -5
It was pretty clear when Hazen wanted out that DD was the autocratic type. Maybe they could have handled it better, but I think moving on makes sense at this juncture. I’m curious to see who they bring in and what transpires this offseason, because it does seem like major changes are coming. Beane would be amazing, but he has the most secure job in the sport and Boston’s GM role has been the least secure, so I have a hard time seeing how Henry could sweeten the pot enough to get him interested. Would he? What exactly is Bill Beane's superpower at this point? He likes to trade away good young players with years of control left, which makes sense in Oakland and absolutely zero sense in Boston. I think he's a good GM where he's at, but it seems like you'd be getting the exact same situation that you (supposedly) have now with Dombrowski, a guy coming from outside the organization who has his own way of doing things that clashes with the existing front office personal. Agreed, but I think the payroll would allow him to behave a little differently here than he does in Oakland. But no, Beane definitely isn’t some mythical figure like some picture him. I think what he’s done with less than most to work with has been very impressive still. Which is also not to say that I wouldn’t be all for a lower profile hire that was an arguably better fit.
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Post by grandsalami on Sept 9, 2019 12:01:43 GMT -5
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Post by James Dunne on Sept 9, 2019 12:09:43 GMT -5
Remember, the Red Sox can't just fire someone, they have to character assassinate him in the press as well. Did he have a painkiller addicition like Francona too or nah? The idea that Dombrowski wasn't the right person to lead the Red Sox to 2020 is sensible. The assertion that his 108-win team in 2018 was "a minor miracle" that happened despite his disfunctionality is a whole bunch of malarkey.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Sept 9, 2019 12:16:56 GMT -5
Remember, the Red Sox can't just fire someone, they have to character assassinate him in the press as well. Did he have a painkiller addicition like Francona too or nah? The idea that Dombrowski wasn't the right person to lead the Red Sox to 2020 is sensible. The assertion that his 108-win team in 2018 was "a minor miracle" that happened despite his disfunctionality is a whole bunch of malarkey. Anyway, everything we're hearing now from the exact same people seems totally credible.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 9, 2019 12:22:12 GMT -5
Man, I miss Drellich covering the Sox. He's really good at his job. This article coincides with Grandsalami's tweet above.
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Post by coachmac on Sept 9, 2019 12:35:09 GMT -5
Drellich suggests that ownership was not sold on Sale in spring training and Dombrowski forced the issue and didnt handle it well.
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Post by sarasoxer on Sept 9, 2019 12:35:57 GMT -5
I am happy with either Eddie Romero or Don Orsillo being the GM. There are probably a half-dozen others I'd be content with. Beane is among them. What are Orsillo's qualifications tho?
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 9, 2019 12:37:17 GMT -5
I am happy with either Eddie Romero or Don Orsillo being the GM. There are probably a half-dozen others I'd be content with. Beane is among them. What are Orsillo's qualifications tho? Lol, ya. I didn't get the joke at first either.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 9, 2019 12:49:15 GMT -5
Drellich suggests that ownership was not sold on Sale in spring training and Dombrowski forced the issue and didnt handle it well. I feel like Jimed hearing crap like that! The owner is his Boss, he only had to say nope let's see him play. Heck how would DD even start the talks without ownership okaying it? You don't just talk massive extensions like that without ownership saying go forward. Once again just throwing the guy under the bus after you fire him. You want to move on fine, but it should have been thanking DD for everything he did, we just needed a new course. Not this crap!
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 9, 2019 12:53:39 GMT -5
I wanted them to go to Hernandez earlier. In the bullpen. The problem with the pen was not enough swing and miss guys. I felt they had two answers Hernandez and Houck. They kept waiting on Hernandez and never gave Houck a chance. You can see guys like Barnes are great but overused. Workman was good too but when I watched the good hitters would always foul off there great pitches. It must be aggravating. That answers the question with the salary when you have cost controlled options. I guess the Sox wanted to give them a chance to start and kept at it. I don’t feel it’s a negative to have talent in the bullpen . Not enough swing and miss guys in the bullpen? They lead the majors in K/9 by a large margin.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Sept 9, 2019 12:57:19 GMT -5
The story is trickling out. Fascinating.... people protecting themselves and making themselves look better at the expense of others. Is there anything more typical of human behavior than that. Seems to me like a power struggle....with economics being the central component.
Money.....so they say....is the root of all evil today.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 9, 2019 13:21:40 GMT -5
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Post by soxcentral on Sept 9, 2019 13:22:33 GMT -5
I actually think Shaughnessey has the best feel for the situation, inside info or otherwise. A good, quick podcast here with Buster Olney: www.espn.com/espnradio/play?id=27577318Really sounds like Dombrowski just wanted clarity on his future, Henry was at the game last night because it was employee appreciation night (!) or something like that, and Dave took the opportunity to get a firm answer in person. It also sounds like they didn't intend for it to get out last night, but the story was about to break and they had to get in front of it.
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Post by coachmac on Sept 9, 2019 13:23:09 GMT -5
Drellich suggests that ownership was not sold on Sale in spring training and Dombrowski forced the issue and didnt handle it well. I feel like Jimed hearing crap like that! The owner is his Boss, he only had to say nope let's see him play. Heck how would DD even start the talks without ownership okaying it? You don't just talk massive extensions like that without ownership saying go forward. Once again just throwing the guy under the bus after you fire him. You want to move on fine, but it should have been thanking DD for everything he did, we just needed a new course. Not this crap! I agree. It's sad that you can't get traded or fired in Boston without the your character being assasinated.
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Post by huskies15 on Sept 9, 2019 13:38:34 GMT -5
Everything about this right now feels slimy
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Post by Guidas on Sept 9, 2019 14:43:33 GMT -5
I am happy with either Eddie Romero or Don Orsillo being the GM. There are probably a half-dozen others I'd be content with. Beane is among them. What are Orsillo's qualifications tho? Why, he’s THE Don Orsillo. (translation: I believe mentioning hi. was a bit of levity thrown into an otherwise grimly serious subject).
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Post by Guidas on Sept 9, 2019 14:44:33 GMT -5
P.S. I’m gonna hate seeing Mookie in pinstripes in 2021. Like rip the skin from my face hate.
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