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Post by rminns10 on Dec 19, 2020 10:20:46 GMT -5
its trending that nobody will get in this year
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Dec 19, 2020 10:35:50 GMT -5
i am hopeful that Bonds gets in. Of all the steroid guys, he was the best player pre and post steroid use (which isn't an insignificant feat). His offensive numbers while on 'roids were absolutely amazing. It spoke to his true talent, IMO.
However, he can never be forgiven for his awful throw against Sid Bream that ended the NLCS. That wasn't a hard throw and Bonds arm (not his greatest tool) failed him miserably on that play.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 19, 2020 14:06:21 GMT -5
With 12.4% of the ballots known: Schilling: 69.4% (net -1 on returning voters, 1/2 first-time voters) Bonds: 67.3% (net 0, 2/2) Clemens: 67.3% (net 0, 2/2) Rolen is the only other one with more than 50%, but just barely so. I don't think we can safely say nobody gets in this year, but that's certainly the way it's looking unless we get a bunch of new votes for one of those three coming in soon. Link
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Post by incandenza on Dec 19, 2020 15:02:03 GMT -5
Rolen being at barely 50% is bananas. But if it ends up there it would at least be a healthy increase from the 35% he got last year; I bet he makes it in eventually.
These voters are stingy, man. I kind of think there's a big segment of voters who have some ethereal standard about players having to be "feared" or "dominant in their era" or something, but then for the steroid era all such guys were probably on steroids, and they won't vote for them either.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 19, 2020 15:16:20 GMT -5
What's the argument against Schilling? He's a d*ck? The guy was one of the best big game pitchers for my generation. He's an easy call with no steroid issues. The HOF voting process is really broken. We should be debating the so-so guys, instead it's will three guys that are for sure HOF players. They need to clean house of the old guard of voters and the way they do things.
Still really surprised guys like Santana get 2.4% of the vote and get kicked off first year. He might not have been a HOF guy because of injuries shortening his career. Yet aren't those the guys we should be debating for a few years?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 19, 2020 17:59:04 GMT -5
It's not that he's a dick. It's that he's posted numerous racist and transphobic things on his Twitter, is anti-gay marriage, etc. I'm sure the 38 Studios debacle doesn't help either.
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Post by James Dunne on Dec 19, 2020 19:38:47 GMT -5
It took Mike Mussina years to get in, and he has none of Schilling's baggage. Kevin Brown fell iff the ballot in one year. Bert Blyleven took all 15 years, if I recall. Part of what's keeping Schilling out is that he's a bigot, but it's also partly that the standards for pitchers are absurd. I'd say half to 2/3 of those not picking Schilling care more about his win total not measuring up to the dead ball era guys than the other stuff.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Dec 19, 2020 19:54:04 GMT -5
You're right, this is where the failure to take into account a player's numbers - all of them - is the most pronounced. Blyleven accumulated almost 100 WAR, but for some truly bad teams, so he was ignored for all those years as if he was some sort of middling candidate. In general, the HoF has been so degraded by a lack of understanding about what pitchers and position players actually brought to the table, that it makes me wonder if it can be reclaimed.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 19, 2020 20:41:43 GMT -5
Eh, I don't know that I agree. 3000 K's, 3 rings including a WS MVP and the bloody sock game, 3x Cy runner-up. Are there really that many people who don't think he meets the bar statistically?
That said, given that he was all of 20 votes short last year, it's probably both. I just know there's probably at least 20 voters in the "new" generation of voters who are smart enough to ignore wins who are vocal that they don't vote for him for off-field reasons.
That said, I've seen articles lately about how the standard for modern-era pitchers has been unrealistic for the Hall.
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TearsIn04
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Post by TearsIn04 on Dec 19, 2020 22:33:02 GMT -5
Eh, I don't know that I agree. 3000 K's, 3 rings including a WS MVP and the bloody sock game, 3x Cy runner-up. Are there really that many people who don't think he meets the bar statistically? That said, given that he was all of 20 votes short last year, it's probably both. I just know there's probably at least 20 voters in the "new" generation of voters who are smart enough to ignore wins who are vocal that they don't vote for him for off-field reasons. That said, I've seen articles lately about how the standard for modern-era pitchers has been unrealistic for the Hall. It's definitely both. The electorate includes enough voters who are still stuck on W's as the key measure of a SP's value. It also includes some voters who omit him because of his bigotry and other stupidity. The bigger mystery to me is why he is on track to fall short of the 70 percent he got in last year's voting. It's unusual for a guy who got as close as he did to backslide like that. I took it for granted he'd get elected this year. It's not too early in the voting to see a pattern emerging and it looks like he's not going to make it. On the merits, it's not a close call. His 127 ERA-plus would tie him for 18th among HOF SPs from the 20th and 21st centuries. His 79.5 WAR would place him tied for 18th with Stan Coveleski, Bob Gibson and Tom Seaver. And that's not even taking into account the monster PS performance.
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TearsIn04
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Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
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Post by TearsIn04 on Dec 19, 2020 22:42:11 GMT -5
I should add that I think it's unfair to criticize those who refuse to vote for Schilling because of his bigotry and general douchery. Whether we like it or not, the Hall's own guidelines say voters can take a candidate's character into account.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Dec 19, 2020 23:42:16 GMT -5
It's not that he's a dick. It's that he's posted numerous racist and transphobic things on his Twitter, is anti-gay marriage, etc. I'm sure the 38 Studios debacle doesn't help either. And other than that, he's a nice guy!
I'm actually serious, which actually makes the political views more disturbing. If it were only bullies and a-holes that held those kind of views, the country wouldn't be in ... the current situation.
Eh, I don't know that I agree. 3000 K's, 3 rings including a WS MVP and the bloody sock game, 3x Cy runner-up. Are there really that many people who don't think he meets the bar statistically? That said, given that he was all of 20 votes short last year, it's probably both. I just know there's probably at least 20 voters in the "new" generation of voters who are smart enough to ignore wins who are vocal that they don't vote for him for off-field reasons. That said, I've seen articles lately about how the standard for modern-era pitchers has been unrealistic for the Hall. Never underestimate the cluelessness of the folks involved in this process. The next-to-last time Dewey didn't make his Committee short list, I looked at the position players that did. Ted Simmons was on the list. He was the outlier.
The rest of the list literally consisted of the eligible career leaders in hits. No other criteria need apply.
So, Steve Garvey, who was a nominee, vs. Dwight Evans, who was deemed undeserving:
2599 to 2466, H 2332 to 2606, G
9455 to 10469, PA
483 to 556, 2B and 3B
272 to 385, HR 1132 to 1470, R 1308 to 1384, RBI 508 to 1444, BB and HBP 0 to 56 R, defensive value
It's one thing to be so blinkered that you only look at counting stats. It's another thing entirely to only look at one of them.
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Post by electricityverdugo99 on Dec 20, 2020 0:23:46 GMT -5
I should add that I think it's unfair to criticize those who refuse to vote for Schilling because of his bigotry and general douchery. Whether we like it or not, the Hall's own guidelines say voters can take a candidate's character into account. The character clause should be eliminated. Most of these baseball writers would throw a baby out the window to get the biggest story of the off-season printed. They are the last ones to be the judge of anyone's character.
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Post by incandenza on Dec 20, 2020 2:15:51 GMT -5
I should add that I think it's unfair to criticize those who refuse to vote for Schilling because of his bigotry and general douchery. Whether we like it or not, the Hall's own guidelines say voters can take a candidate's character into account. On top of which, one of Schilling's more dubious rhetorical gestures was to suggest that journalists ought to be murdered by lynch mobs. If a sports journalist decided they weren't going to vote for him solely on grounds of self-respect, I wouldn't blame them.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 20, 2020 9:26:27 GMT -5
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Post by James Dunne on Dec 20, 2020 10:51:17 GMT -5
That doesn't surprise me. Mitch Williams was famously furious with him after the 1993 World Series, after Schilling made a big scene about putting a towel over his face whenever they brought Williams in to pitch. When Randy Johnson was involved in trade talks and Schilling said he'd try to recruit him, Johnson told reporters that he deleted Schilling's number. When the press corps laughed, he replied flatly "that wasn't a joke." Pedro was very personally critical of him in his book. I remember another veteran pitcher (maybe Swindell? I can't find the quote, it's been 18-20 years now), when asked about Schilling's preparation routine said something along the lines of "we all chart our games, the rest of us just don't sit in front of the TV camera to make a show of it." Back in the late 90's I remember Sean McDonough making on air cryptic-but-clear references to the fact none of the other players could stand him and considered him a glory hog. Much has been made about how he was traded three times before he put it together, but he kept getting traded because even before he was a good pitcher he was a headstrong jerk who coaches didn't want to deal with.
None of that should keep him out of the Hall of Fame. But... the people voting here are humans! Objectively, Curt Schilling the pitcher has Hall of Fame credentials, but Curt Shilling the person has spent 35 years going out of his way to make Curt Schilling the pitcher hard to evaluate objectively.
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Post by electricityverdugo99 on Dec 20, 2020 11:12:33 GMT -5
Objectively, Curt Schilling the pitcher has Hall of Fame credentials The humans voting for him got to be better. Full stop right there. If Curt has the numbers, which he clearly does, he should be in. No one is going to remember the story behind Schilling's career 50 years from now. They want to learn about the numbers and how he compared to other players in that time when reading his plaque. Maybe even compare him to the players 50 years from now. I don't get it myself. In conclusion- Taking away the best players in our generation because of morality issues does nothing for the history of the game.
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Post by James Dunne on Dec 20, 2020 11:25:21 GMT -5
He'll be in the Hall of Fame 50 years from now, so you're golden on that front.
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Post by electricityverdugo99 on Dec 20, 2020 11:30:57 GMT -5
He's got one year of eligibility left, I think. It'll be up to the veteran's committee to fix the writer's problems.
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Post by foreverred9 on Dec 20, 2020 11:39:44 GMT -5
What that tweet is telling me is that his post-career behavior isn't having much of an impact on his HOF chances. It's telling that the players are willing to put in Bonds and Clemens but not him.
I for one like that the HOF is subjective, if it was just a matter of WAR > X or Y seasons with WAR/150 > Z then there wouldn't ever be any conversation.
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dd
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Post by dd on Dec 20, 2020 17:54:25 GMT -5
And other than that, he's a nice guy! I'm actually serious, which actually makes the political views more disturbing. If it were only bullies and a-holes that held those kind of views, the country wouldn't be in ... the current situation.
This!
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Dec 20, 2020 19:00:02 GMT -5
It's not that he's a dick. It's that he's posted numerous racist and transphobic things on his Twitter, is anti-gay marriage, etc. I'm sure the 38 Studios debacle doesn't help either. And the joke about lynching journalists is beyond the pale. This is moral turpitude. Being just a jerk would be be fine.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Dec 20, 2020 19:42:13 GMT -5
I don't agree with that. If so? Jim Kaat, who racked up 283W's for mostly bad teams, except for the early part of his career, was a truly iron man and workhorse.. Completing what he started with 180CG's and several times, making 40+ starts a season.
Kaat hs long deserved enshrinement over guys like Mussina and yes.. Even Schill.
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Post by bluechip on Dec 20, 2020 20:42:46 GMT -5
It's not that he's a dick. It's that he's posted numerous racist and transphobic things on his Twitter, is anti-gay marriage, etc. I'm sure the 38 Studios debacle doesn't help either. And other than that, he's a nice guy! I'm actually serious, which actually makes the political views more disturbing. If it were only bullies and a-holes that held those kind of views, the country wouldn't be in ... the current situation.
I know sports reporters in Boston would disagree about him being a nice guy...
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 21, 2020 2:13:12 GMT -5
I don't agree with that. If so? Jim Kaat, who racked up 283W's for mostly bad teams, except for the early part of his career, was a truly iron man and workhorse.. Completing what he started with 180CG's and several times, making 40+ starts a season. Kaat hs long deserved enshrinement over guys like Mussina and yes.. Even Schill. I think you kinda just proved his point, the old guard looks at things like you do. Yet compare Kaat to pitchers of his generation and he wasn't a HOF pitcher highlighted by his 50.5 bwar. You can't penalize pitchers because the game changed.
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