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manfred
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Post by manfred on Jan 27, 2021 11:42:11 GMT -5
Curt tweeted some mean things and doesn’t believe men should be allowed to play women’s sports, so clearly he’s a monster and that negates him having a HOF resume and being one of the best postseason pitchers of all-time. Let’s keep letting in lesser talents like Mussina and Jack Morris. At least they didn’t offend anyone. Nice work, sportswriters. Ummm... he supported the attack on the Capitol? There is a reason Jefferson Davis isn’t in the Great Americans Hall of Fame even though he was certainly very “accomplished.”
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 27, 2021 11:48:08 GMT -5
Ugh!!! Ichiro!!! Yes! How in the hell did I miss that!! Thank you! I didn't realize Brian Jordan was that good a right fielder. I remember him as a good hitting OF who also played football, but I'll take your word for it. I had forgotten that Ichiro was otherworldly in RF. In a way I'm really glad because when you look at his offensive numbers, he's got the 3000 hits, the speed and batting titles, but his OPS was never anything too particularly special, but when you add in that defense in RF, then yeah, he's a HOFer, not that he wouldn't be otherwise, but I think there are some holes you could poke in the argument, if not for what the defense added to his game. During the moneyball era of the aughts we all learned the value of those slow beefy guys who hit .240 but would walk a ton to have strong OBP and then back it up with a bunch of HRs so that the SA was sterling too. Those were the overlooked guys because of the low BA and high strikeout rates. We learned that the high BA, low walk, low power guys perhaps weren't as valuable offensively. But Ichiro was the best of that archetype, and now we appreciate a fuller picture and with Ichiro it was the speed that turned those endless supply of singles into doubles, and yeah, that defense in RF. He saved a bunch of runs with that defense. In these statistical times, we now look to a more balanced picture of a player offensively and defensively - and Ichiro's defense certainly propelled him. Thanks for the reminder!! I obviously needed it! Wait... if Ichiro were an average fielder, would his OPS really make you hesitate? Dude is the global hit king! I’d honestly say there are only a handful of players in history I’d vote for ahead of Ichiro. I mean, to be fair, I was surprised to see that even using only his MLB prime, his OPS+ is "just" 117. It was lower than I thought it'd be. But yeah he's clearly a HOFer, especially if (as you should - it's the Baseball Hall of Fame not the MLB Hall of Fame) you consider his time in Japan, and what he meant to the game as really the breakthrough Japanese hitter in MLB - it'd been all pitchers before that.
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Post by incandenza on Jan 27, 2021 11:50:42 GMT -5
Curt tweeted some mean things and doesn’t believe men should be allowed to play women’s sports, so clearly he’s a monster and that negates him having a HOF resume and being one of the best postseason pitchers of all-time. Let’s keep letting in lesser talents like Mussina and Jack Morris. At least they didn’t offend anyone. Nice work, sportswriters. Yeah this is definitely missing the point.
Like I and many others have said, I don't begrudge anyone who says that he should be judged by on-field experience alone, or that the on-field performance overrides the off-field stuff. (And 70% of Hall voters did just that, by the way.) But please don't pretend it's just a question of tweeting some "mean things"; the guy is just a negative force in the world, full of hate and resentment despite being one of the very luckiest human beings to ever live.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Jan 27, 2021 12:03:37 GMT -5
Wait... if Ichiro were an average fielder, would his OPS really make you hesitate? Dude is the global hit king! I’d honestly say there are only a handful of players in history I’d vote for ahead of Ichiro. I mean, to be fair, I was surprised to see that even using only his MLB prime, his OPS+ is "just" 117. It was lower than I thought it'd be. But yeah he's clearly a HOFer, especially if (as you should - it's the Baseball Hall of Fame not the MLB Hall of Fame) you consider his time in Japan, and what he meant to the game as really the breakthrough Japanese hitter in MLB - it'd been all pitchers before that. It’s true. But just taking his “prime” years (and granting he started later than he would as a normal prospect), his first 10 season he slashed .331/.376./.430. OPS+ of that 117. But he also stole 383 bases. I think this is an area where OPS+ is unfair: Ichiro didn’t hit for much power because a) he wasn’t that big a power hitter but b) with his speed, a single was a far more dangerous thing than it is for most players. Not just because he could steal, but because he could advance further on another hit. I wish they would create an adjustment to OPS that included the additional bases from speed. To take perhaps the most extreme example, in 2006, Ichiro only slugged .416, and he had an OPS+ of only 106. But he was 45/47 in steals! So (not counting that some might have been of third) in theory you could say he had about 45 more extra-base hits. With the added bonus of terrorizing pitchers and catchers. You don’t disagree on Ichiro, so I’m obviously not arguing what is not an argument... I mean this more philosophically — OPS+ can be overvalued when applied to speed players.
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Post by benzinger on Jan 27, 2021 12:29:56 GMT -5
Curt tweeted some mean things and doesn’t believe men should be allowed to play women’s sports, so clearly he’s a monster and that negates him having a HOF resume and being one of the best postseason pitchers of all-time. Let’s keep letting in lesser talents like Mussina and Jack Morris. At least they didn’t offend anyone. Nice work, sportswriters. Ummm... he supported the attack on the Capitol? There is a reason Jefferson Davis isn’t in the Great Americans Hall of Fame even though he was certainly very “accomplished.” Did he? What did he say about the events at the Capitol? I hear everyone parroting that, but haven’t seen the actual comments. (Also, the ballots were submitted before that even happened, so what else do you have?)
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Post by benzinger on Jan 27, 2021 12:32:40 GMT -5
Curt tweeted some mean things and doesn’t believe men should be allowed to play women’s sports, so clearly he’s a monster and that negates him having a HOF resume and being one of the best postseason pitchers of all-time. Let’s keep letting in lesser talents like Mussina and Jack Morris. At least they didn’t offend anyone. Nice work, sportswriters. Yeah this is definitely missing the point.
Like I and many others have said, I don't begrudge anyone who says that he should be judged by on-field experience alone, or that the on-field performance overrides the off-field stuff. (And 70% of Hall voters did just that, by the way.) But please don't pretend it's just a question of tweeting some "mean things"; the guy is just a negative force in the world, full of hate and resentment despite being one of the very luckiest human beings to ever live.
OK. So he’s a jerk and he’s full of hate. Therefore we should negate his obvious HOF career. I think we can all sleep better at night knowing the brave sportswriters are protecting us from seeing this monster enshrined.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 27, 2021 12:34:08 GMT -5
I mean, to be fair, I was surprised to see that even using only his MLB prime, his OPS+ is "just" 117. It was lower than I thought it'd be. But yeah he's clearly a HOFer, especially if (as you should - it's the Baseball Hall of Fame not the MLB Hall of Fame) you consider his time in Japan, and what he meant to the game as really the breakthrough Japanese hitter in MLB - it'd been all pitchers before that. It’s true. But just taking his “prime” years (and granting he started later than he would as a normal prospect), his first 10 season he slashed .331/.376./.430. OPS+ of that 117. But he also stole 383 bases. I think this is an area where OPS+ is unfair: Ichiro didn’t hit for much power because a) he wasn’t that big a power hitter but b) with his speed, a single was a far more dangerous thing than it is for most players. Not just because he could steal, but because he could advance further on another hit. I wish they would create an adjustment to OPS that included the additional bases from speed. To take perhaps the most extreme example, in 2006, Ichiro only slugged .416, and he had an OPS+ of only 106. But he was 45/47 in steals! So (not counting that some might have been of third) in theory you could say he had about 45 more extra-base hits. With the added bonus of terrorizing pitchers and catchers. You don’t disagree on Ichiro, so I’m obviously not arguing what is not an argument... I mean this more philosophically — OPS+ can be overvalued when applied to speed players. Yeah we're definitely not disagreeing. I just found it interesting. I mean, at some point we're just talking about offensive WAR, right? 2001-2010 he was worth 4.5 B-Ref OWAR/season. And it's a great point that this is his age 27-36 seasons.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 27, 2021 12:45:53 GMT -5
Ugh!!! Ichiro!!! Yes! How in the hell did I miss that!! Thank you! I didn't realize Brian Jordan was that good a right fielder. I remember him as a good hitting OF who also played football, but I'll take your word for it. I had forgotten that Ichiro was otherworldly in RF. In a way I'm really glad because when you look at his offensive numbers, he's got the 3000 hits, the speed and batting titles, but his OPS was never anything too particularly special, but when you add in that defense in RF, then yeah, he's a HOFer, not that he wouldn't be otherwise, but I think there are some holes you could poke in the argument, if not for what the defense added to his game. During the moneyball era of the aughts we all learned the value of those slow beefy guys who hit .240 but would walk a ton to have strong OBP and then back it up with a bunch of HRs so that the SA was sterling too. Those were the overlooked guys because of the low BA and high strikeout rates. We learned that the high BA, low walk, low power guys perhaps weren't as valuable offensively. But Ichiro was the best of that archetype, and now we appreciate a fuller picture and with Ichiro it was the speed that turned those endless supply of singles into doubles, and yeah, that defense in RF. He saved a bunch of runs with that defense. In these statistical times, we now look to a more balanced picture of a player offensively and defensively - and Ichiro's defense certainly propelled him. Thanks for the reminder!! I obviously needed it! Wait... if Ichiro were an average fielder, would his OPS really make you hesitate? Dude is the global hit king! I’d honestly say there are only a handful of players in history I’d vote for ahead of Ichiro. The fact that he had 1200 hits in Japan doesn't compute into consideration for the HOF. I didn't say I wouldn't vote for Ichiro if was an ordinary outfielder. I said you can poke holes in his candidacy. His OPS+ was only 107. A lot of corner OF top that mark. For the reasons you mentioned, he was the best of that archetype of hitter, just as Gwynn was the past twenty years prior to him, although Gwynn was at 132 in OPS+, and Pete Rose before him who was at 118 in OPS+, so even that is not really a good comparison. So yes, I would have voted for him most likely, but I think there would be some holes you can poke in that candidacy. I think the defense helps prop him up and show his greatness as a true all around player. The speed he displayed, also don't show up in OPS+, as he turned a number of singles into doubles, so yes, he was better than that margin. But in the two most important statistical categories for a corner OF, the on-base average was between good and very good and the slugging average was meh because power wasn't a big part of his game, so yes, you could poke holes in that, although not enough that I wouldn't have voted for him, but I wouldn't have thought somebody crazy if they weren't bowled over. I think Ichiro will sail in easily and deservedly into the HOF. The old-time writers will focus on his BA, his hit king status and say he's in. The stat guys will see his all around game, that his excellent defensive stats add onto his offensive humbers and will say he's in. As a matter of fact, he's most likely a first ballot HOFer, and I have no problem with that. He'd have my vote too.
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 27, 2021 13:10:12 GMT -5
Ichiro is one of the guys not captured by OPS/OPS+. He got so much more value from hitting an absolute ton of singles and doubles, then obviously was among the best baserunners and defenders in the game on top of that. Like, in 2004 he hit .372/.414/.455. Getting an .869 OPS that way is far more valuable than doing it with a .364 OBP and .505 SLG because one point of OBP is worth far more than one point of slugging. It's like Wade Boggs - OPS ever showed what a monster Boggs was at the plate because he'd end up leading the league in OBP by 50 points and yet have a sub-.500 SLG.
It's part of the reason I think Votto is a slam dunk as well, and why I'd vote for Helton. OPS just doesn't properly rate guys who got value from extremely high OBPs.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Jan 27, 2021 13:15:51 GMT -5
Ummm... he supported the attack on the Capitol? There is a reason Jefferson Davis isn’t in the Great Americans Hall of Fame even though he was certainly very “accomplished.” Did he? What did he say about the events at the Capitol? I hear everyone parroting that, but haven’t seen the actual comments. (Also, the ballots were submitted before that even happened, so what else do you have?) You're right about the timing of the ballots. But you cannot google what he said about the violent attack on the Capitol? He clearly supported what they did both on Wednesday and on Friday. “Sit back, [shut up] and watch folks start a confrontation for [expletive] that matters like rights, democracy and the end of [government] corruption,” Schilling then wrote of the mob attack, which resulted in five deaths — including a Capitol Police officer, a protester who was shot to death by Capitol Police and three others who died during the rioting. ...He wasn’t backing down on Friday. “It is time folks,” Schilling wrote on Parler. “The Gov’t, the MSM and the Fact Checkers comprise the 3 largest groups of liars in America. We are AT the crossroads, not coming to it, or getting near, AT.” www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/ny-curt-schilling-capitol-attack-20210108-f35gh22pcrgb3ohmncfn4h22gu-story.html
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Jan 27, 2021 13:16:58 GMT -5
Ummm... he supported the attack on the Capitol? There is a reason Jefferson Davis isn’t in the Great Americans Hall of Fame even though he was certainly very “accomplished.” Did he? What did he say about the events at the Capitol? I hear everyone parroting that, but haven’t seen the actual comments. (Also, the ballots were submitted before that even happened, so what else do you have?) "what else do you have?" Curt Schilling thinks shirt threatening to lynch journalists is ‘awesome’ www.boston.com/news/politics/2016/11/08/curt-schilling-thinks-shirt-threatening-to-lynch-journalists-is-awesome
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Post by benzinger on Jan 27, 2021 13:20:11 GMT -5
OK. So he’s a jerk and he’s full of hate. Therefore we should negate his obvious HOF career. I think we can all sleep better at night knowing the brave sportswriters are protecting us from seeing this monster enshrined. Prior to his support of the capitol attack, I think if you took a survey here most people here would have said, "Enshrine him". I think the writers would have enshrined him if he didn't support a meme or whatever it was that said, "Journalists. Rope. Tree. Some assembly required." If you were a journalist and you had been threatened at some point or knew somebody that was, that could piss you off enough to say, "Screw that guy, I'm not voting for him", couldn't it? At least that's reasonable. Frankly, I think he should have gotten in around 2014 or 2015, before that comment came out (or at least I think it was before). A lot of the old school writers still voting at that time weren't bright enough to see that his career was truly HOF caliber. They saw his career as borderline near that Catfish Hunter/Luis Tiant line where it's flip a coin. A lot of them didn't recognize the greatness of his lifetime K/BB ratio and how truly great Schilling was. By the time those older voters were weeded out and replaced by more stat savvy voters Schilling was getting more offensive in his views. I honestly think if he didn't do the rope comment he might have gotten in this year, and if he didn't support the insurrection, he would probably have gotten in on his final try. But Schilling can no longer help himself unfortunately. As previously mentioned, the votes were due before he made any comments about the Capitol. But I agree that he’s said PLENTY of dumb/ill-advised things. And you are definitely right that saying those things about the people who are voting for you(although he was talking about journalists and not specifically sportswriters) was stupid. I just hate to see him kept out of the HOF for “speech crime”. But that’s how it goes these days and I probably shouldn’t act surprised.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 27, 2021 13:30:30 GMT -5
OK, we're not going to change each other's minds on whether or not what Curt Schilling said is ok and whether he deserves to be in the hall as a result. Let's move along on that piece of things please. Thanks.
EDIT: Just moved a bunch of that, from the point where it seemed to devolve, into throwdown and locked it. Nobody's in trouble, just trying to head it off at the pass.
You all can feel free to discuss elsewhere. This is a baseball message board and we discuss baseball. Sometimes the two overlap and that's fine. But when we're getting into a discussion that literally nobody's mind will be changed in and that will inevitably swing the discussion completely away from the topic at hand (again, baseball), then it's time to move on. Thanks.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Jan 27, 2021 14:26:24 GMT -5
Wait... if Ichiro were an average fielder, would his OPS really make you hesitate? Dude is the global hit king! I’d honestly say there are only a handful of players in history I’d vote for ahead of Ichiro. The fact that he had 1200 hits in Japan doesn't compute into consideration for the HOF. I didn't say I wouldn't vote for Ichiro if was an ordinary outfielder. I said you can poke holes in his candidacy. His OPS+ was only 107. A lot of corner OF top that mark. For the reasons you mentioned, he was the best of that archetype of hitter, just as Gwynn was the past twenty years prior to him, although Gwynn was at 132 in OPS+, and Pete Rose before him who was at 118 in OPS+, so even that is not really a good comparison. So yes, I would have voted for him most likely, but I think there would be some holes you can poke in that candidacy. I think the defense helps prop him up and show his greatness as a true all around player. The speed he displayed, also don't show up in OPS+, as he turned a number of singles into doubles, so yes, he was better than that margin. But in the two most important statistical categories for a corner OF, the on-base average was between good and very good and the slugging average was meh because power wasn't a big part of his game, so yes, you could poke holes in that, although not enough that I wouldn't have voted for him, but I wouldn't have thought somebody crazy if they weren't bowled over. I think Ichiro will sail in easily and deservedly into the HOF. The old-time writers will focus on his BA, his hit king status and say he's in. The stat guys will see his all around game, that his excellent defensive stats add onto his offensive humbers and will say he's in. As a matter of fact, he's most likely a first ballot HOFer, and I have no problem with that. He'd have my vote too. That is your prerogative, and it is why even slam dunks aren’t unanimous— we assume everyone shares a single scale. That isn’t a shot — I just mean that, for example, when you say the two most important stats for a corner outfielder are on base and slugging, I don’t see it. They can be... except when a guy is simply a different kind of player. Indeed, I don’t necessarily rank stats at all so much as judge case by case how was a guy great and where was he not great. But then... if I listed those, a reasonable person might interpret them far differently from how I have. But... personally I think whatever else, 3,000 hits is automatic. It is a magic number. And his career was far more than just that.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 27, 2021 14:47:54 GMT -5
The fact that he had 1200 hits in Japan doesn't compute into consideration for the HOF. I didn't say I wouldn't vote for Ichiro if was an ordinary outfielder. I said you can poke holes in his candidacy. His OPS+ was only 107. A lot of corner OF top that mark. For the reasons you mentioned, he was the best of that archetype of hitter, just as Gwynn was the past twenty years prior to him, although Gwynn was at 132 in OPS+, and Pete Rose before him who was at 118 in OPS+, so even that is not really a good comparison. So yes, I would have voted for him most likely, but I think there would be some holes you can poke in that candidacy. I think the defense helps prop him up and show his greatness as a true all around player. The speed he displayed, also don't show up in OPS+, as he turned a number of singles into doubles, so yes, he was better than that margin. But in the two most important statistical categories for a corner OF, the on-base average was between good and very good and the slugging average was meh because power wasn't a big part of his game, so yes, you could poke holes in that, although not enough that I wouldn't have voted for him, but I wouldn't have thought somebody crazy if they weren't bowled over. I think Ichiro will sail in easily and deservedly into the HOF. The old-time writers will focus on his BA, his hit king status and say he's in. The stat guys will see his all around game, that his excellent defensive stats add onto his offensive humbers and will say he's in. As a matter of fact, he's most likely a first ballot HOFer, and I have no problem with that. He'd have my vote too. That is your prerogative, and it is why even slam dunks aren’t unanimous— we assume everyone shares a single scale. That isn’t a shot — I just mean that, for example, when you say the two most important stats for a corner outfielder are on base and slugging, I don’t see it. They can be... except when a guy is simply a different kind of player. Indeed, I don’t necessarily rank stats at all so much as judge case by case how was a guy great and where was he not great. But then... if I listed those, a reasonable person might interpret them far differently from how I have. But... personally I think whatever else, 3,000 hits is automatic. It is a magic number. And his career was far more than just that. I don't think that we're really disagreeing much. I feel the two most important elements of offense are 1) OBP and 2) SA. But as you, I and James Dunne pointed out, that while OPS+ is usually good it has its flaws, and in Ichiro's case those flaws are obvious. But it's not completely wrong. Ichiro has a .355 OBP lifetime. It's not that outstanding. He made a lot more outs than other HOF comparables. But like it's been pointed out he stuck around a lot of years past his peak dragging down his numbers, although helping the compiling stats. But I would think things like 3000 hits or 300 wins should be automatic, too. And as I summed things up, I'd vote for Ichiro without hesitation.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 27, 2021 15:22:22 GMT -5
The problem with Ichiro's rate stats is he played until he was 45. He was a different offensive player for the last 7 years of his career and was still getting a lot of playing time - he was .261/.310/.329 for the final 2011 plate appearances of his career! If he'd retired after 2012 at the completely reasonable age of 38, his MLB career line is a .322/.365/.419 rather than .311/.355/.402. If he retires after age 36 it's .331/.376/.430.
Also, I don't believe there's anything that says you can't consider what he did in Japan. I mean, seven years of his career were spent abroad.
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TearsIn04
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Post by TearsIn04 on Jan 27, 2021 16:24:53 GMT -5
Yeah this is definitely missing the point.
Like I and many others have said, I don't begrudge anyone who says that he should be judged by on-field experience alone, or that the on-field performance overrides the off-field stuff. (And 70% of Hall voters did just that, by the way.) But please don't pretend it's just a question of tweeting some "mean things"; the guy is just a negative force in the world, full of hate and resentment despite being one of the very luckiest human beings to ever live.
OK. So he’s a jerk and he’s full of hate. Therefore we should negate his obvious HOF career. I think we can all sleep better at night knowing the brave sportswriters are protecting us from seeing this monster enshrined. Missing the point by miles, in fact. The character clause gives the voters the option of denying candidates for being bad people. It's off-base to criticize the voters for following a guideline that t he HOF sends to them with their ballot. If I had a vote, I'd give players wide berth on character issues (though not on cheating issues). I always said I thought Schilling was a bigot and a HOF P and that it's possible to be both. But its legitimate for writers to apply the character clause as they see fit. Mean things? The guy has targeted at least one openly gay journalist with bigoted comments, compared Muslims to Nazis, publicly derided LGBT people in general, and questioned Adam Jones on his claim that he heard a racist comment at Fenway. And that's just for starters. More recently, he supported the violent attempt to overthrow the U.S. government, a riot that killed five people. He said in his tweet that the civil rights protests of last summer were about stealing Air Jordans and looting. I guess he must be right because we all know that black people in this country have no legitimate grievances, right? And yes, I realize the riot was after ballots were submitted. Also, if you want know what he tweeted, you can just go to his page, instead of posting a question about what's on there.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Jan 27, 2021 16:36:12 GMT -5
As someone who has complained in the past about who has gotten in and who hasn’t, I’ve come to accept a basic fact: the HOF is a private museum that can do as it pleases, for better and for worse. That’s the last word, really. If voters don’t like the cut of a guy’s jib, there is no appeal.
And as much as I — and probably all of us — have a Hall of Fame of the mind that is perfect and gets it right every time just for love of the game, that’s not this. They make a lot of money from the induction ceremony, and they want it to be a pretty dog’n’pony show... not a media cluster...k. And they’d also prefer big names to WAR darlings (sorry Bobby Grich) to convince people to make the long drive.
My parallel is — I love rock’n’roll more than baseball or, well, just about anything — but I get (though 🤮) that Madonna is in the R’n’R HOF and the New York Dolls aren’t.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 27, 2021 16:59:04 GMT -5
As someone who has complained in the past about who has gotten in and who hasn’t, I’ve come to accept a basic fact: the HOF is a private museum that can do as it pleases, for better and for worse. That’s the last word, really. If voters don’t like the cut of a guy’s jib, there is no appeal. And as much as I — and probably all of us — have a Hall of Fame of the mind that is perfect and gets it right every time just for love of the game, that’s not this. They make a lot of money from the induction ceremony, and they want it to be a pretty dog’n’pony show... not a media cluster...k. And they’d also prefer big names to WAR darlings (sorry Bobby Grich) to convince people to make the long drive. My parallel is — I love rock’n’roll more than baseball or, well, just about anything — but I get (though 🤮) that Madonna is in the R’n’R HOF and the New York Dolls aren’t. A few things. 1) The rules should be changed so that the "Character Clause" is removed and the players are to be judged by what they did on the field. I think that rule change would be welcomed by the fans AND the writers who vote. 2) Figure out where the "cheating lines" are drawn in baseball and how it should be treated by writers as opposed to each having to use their own judgment to figure out if it's ok if a player used steroids, if they used before the testing, used after the testing, used Greenies (most of the older generations prior to PEDs) corked their bats, scuffed the baseball when pitching (or spit in the case of Gaylord Perry), and where does gambling come in (Pete Rose, Shoeless Joe), etc. There needs to be defined clarity so writers don't have to guess or draw those lines. The first suggestion I made is easier. This one is harder. I don't know who defines the cheating in the game thing or how they define cheating (like greenies are ok but PEDS after a certain point aren't or whatever). 3) I agree with you on the standards. They can be weird. I mean all three of Joe Tinker, Johnny Evers, or Frank Chance are in the HOF because of a poem. I mean you can perhaps create a case for any of them, but....And why them and not Gil Hodges, Dick Allen, Luis Tiant, or Dwight Evans? And how about the nepotism that allowed Frankie Frisch to put in all of his teammates or Ted Williams advocating for Phil Rizzuto out of his great respect for Rizzuto but Vern Stephens being ignored? And the most recent glaring example - Tony LaRussa stumping hard to get Harold Baines into the HOF when we all know there are many that are deserving with better numbers that are on the outside looking. And then there's the numbers. Is it look at WAR and there's your answer or should it be a lot more subjective than that - I think to a point it should be. You're right it gets to the point you don't know what a HOFer is unless it's completely obvious and then you're wondering who the idiot was that didn't vote for Ken Griffey Jr, etc. Then there's the small hall vs larger class. I think these things are more fair to be differentiated among voters, so I am cool with this. It's the first two points that really need legistlation. And I love (60s - 80s plus the Foo Fighters) rock-n-roll almost as much as baseball, and I don't know why it took so damn long to get Deep Purple inducted, and there are plenty deserving that aren't there and some that are that I wouldn't exactly classify as rock-n-roll, so all I can do is shrug there too.
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