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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 27, 2021 0:02:39 GMT -5
On the field is what voters should base their vote in ONLY! Pete Rose should be in the HOF as a player. (I can’t stand the SOB as a person), but he deserves the HOF as a player. Clemens, Bonds, Sosa, Palmeiro all cheated on the field as player IMO they are a NOGO for the HOF. Didn't Rose cheat, too? I thought he used corked bats.
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Post by Smittyw on Jan 27, 2021 0:26:28 GMT -5
Regardless of whether or why you think he belongs in the Hall, that is some next-level crybaby BS from Schilling. Truly embarrassing.
Surprised the vote was not RIGGED DUE TO MASSIVE FRAUD.
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Post by foreverred9 on Jan 27, 2021 0:45:21 GMT -5
On the field is what voters should base their vote in ONLY! Since they don't have many rules, unfortunately this statement is only one of many opinions on what it should be. I think we'd all agree that removing or reducing the subjectivity would be a step in the right direction.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 27, 2021 0:55:47 GMT -5
On the field is what voters should base their vote in ONLY! Since they don't have many rules, unfortunately this statement is only one of many opinions on what it should be. I think we'd all agree that removing or reducing the subjectivity would be a step in the right direction. It would make it easier, but then there's still the PEDs cheating or in Rose's and Shoeless Joe Jackson's case, the gambling aspect of the game. How do you square that away?
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Post by foreverred9 on Jan 27, 2021 0:58:17 GMT -5
It's just so damn difficult. I mean a person's political beliefs, whether they differ from you or not, shouldn't matter, and I don't think it does. I think democrats and a lot of republicans recoiled at what they saw on Jan 6th but if you don't....I don't know how that doesn't count against somebody's character. I mean, I read what he had to say and he wasn't wrong about a lot of what he wrote. I think it's a disservice to attribute Curt's issues to the politics (not saying you're doing this specifically) because I sure hope voters aren't saying "he's a republican, no" or "he's a trump supporter, no". I'd be screaming at them if that's what's happening. It's really the morality, hate speech, whatever you want to call it. There's a professional way to talk about islamic terrorism, transgender rights, frustration with the media, etc. that he has ignored and then doubled down when people called him out for being insensitive to others. I remember Curt being political back in the 2000s. That Curt would have gotten voted in, it's just sad to see him devolve over the years.
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Post by foreverred9 on Jan 27, 2021 1:10:51 GMT -5
Since they don't have many rules, unfortunately this statement is only one of many opinions on what it should be. I think we'd all agree that removing or reducing the subjectivity would be a step in the right direction. It would make it easier, but then there's still the PEDs cheating or in Rose's and Shoeless Joe Jackson's case, the gambling aspect of the game. How do you square that away? Hopefully if they created better rules there would at least be clarity around whether it's stats-only or stats-plus-morals. Until they do, morals are going to matter. If it becomes on-the-field contributions only, they could use special exhibits to showcase people more prominently than others. Create a specific exhibit highlighting the players who were also great humanitarians and ambassadors of the game, the players you want the kids of today to remember. Put Pete Roses' plaque on the wall behind the janitors closet. Specifically call out the issue in the plaque. I feel like they can do something.
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Post by bluechip on Jan 27, 2021 1:28:14 GMT -5
It's just so damn difficult. I mean a person's political beliefs, whether they differ from you or not, shouldn't matter, and I don't think it does. I think democrats and a lot of republicans recoiled at what they saw on Jan 6th but if you don't....I don't know how that doesn't count against somebody's character. I mean, I read what he had to say and he wasn't wrong about a lot of what he wrote. I think it's a disservice to attribute Curt's issues to the politics (not saying you're doing this specifically) because I sure hope voters aren't saying "he's a republican, no" or "he's a trump supporter, no". I'd be screaming at them if that's what's happening. It's really the morality, hate speech, whatever you want to call it. There's a professional way to talk about islamic terrorism, transgender rights, frustration with the media, etc. that he has ignored and then doubled down when people called him out for being insensitive to others. I remember Curt being political back in the 2000s. That Curt would have gotten voted in, it's just sad to see him devolve over the years. In the 2000s he did talk about politics some, but I remember more him using his platform to try to raise money for ALS research. He won the Roberto Clemente Award. It’s weird, that 19 years later, the off the field stuff is what appears to be holding him back from being elected.
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Post by incandenza on Jan 27, 2021 1:48:37 GMT -5
The funny thing is that I feel like his career was underrated in his early years of eligibility, before he went bonkers (or before his bonkersness became widely known). Now his on field accomplishments are more properly acknowledged but he's torpedoed himself with his epic dickishness.
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Post by rasimon on Jan 27, 2021 2:55:16 GMT -5
The funny thing is that I feel like his career was underrated in his early years of eligibility, before he went bonkers (or before his bonkersness became widely known). Now his on field accomplishments are more properly acknowledged but he's torpedoed himself with his epic dickishness. Also Curt is not overwhelmingly qualified like say Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens. I would still vote for him despite his political views (which i abhore) but not being inner circle makes it easier to vote against him without attributing the vote entirely to disagreement with his views.
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Post by bluechip on Jan 27, 2021 3:11:16 GMT -5
I am happy to see Todd Helton, Scott Rolen and Andruw Jones are heavily trending in the right direction. They all deserve enshrinement in my opinion. Unfortunately, I expect that with more worthy players coming on the ballot next year, and no one being enshrined this year, they may stagnant for a bit.
Meanwhile Vizquel dropped in the voting. I still think his big jump last year was bizarre. I have not looked at it closely, but I would think that the writers supporting Rolen and Helton are largely different than those who are supporting Vizquel.
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 2,802
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Post by mobaz on Jan 27, 2021 8:56:59 GMT -5
www.espn.com/mlb/insider/story/_/id/30783131/way-too-early-2022-hall-fame-preview-how-alex-rodriguez-david-ortiz-add-even-more-ballot-dramaDavid Schoenfield looks at next year's class, headlined by A-Rod and Ortiz. A few highlights: I personally think with the cloud from the BS NYTimes story, the "he was only a DH" sentiment, Ortiz only comes in at like 65% next year, and takes a year or two. If it weren't for that Times story, he'd actually be the perfect antidote for this year's "everybody is awful in one way or another" saga. He's nearly universally beloved, a good hang, a great origin story, and a winner unlike any recent inductee but Rivera/Jeter (sorry, Schill). I think A-Rod comes in at like 45%. The dude made a whole fake company and website to hide his his doping. MLB Tonight and partying with J-Lo won't erase that for the crowd that hates confirmed positive tests. He definitely shouldn't get in before Bonds/Clemens
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,990
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Post by jimoh on Jan 27, 2021 9:09:23 GMT -5
It's just so damn difficult. I mean a person's political beliefs, whether they differ from you or not, shouldn't matter, and I don't think it does. I think democrats and a lot of republicans recoiled at what they saw on Jan 6th but if you don't....I don't know how that doesn't count against somebody's character. I mean, I read what he had to say and he wasn't wrong about a lot of what he wrote. I think it's a disservice to attribute Curt's issues to the politics (not saying you're doing this specifically) because I sure hope voters aren't saying "he's a republican, no" or "he's a trump supporter, no". I'd be screaming at them if that's what's happening. It's really the morality, hate speech, whatever you want to call it. There's a professional way to talk about islamic terrorism, transgender rights, frustration with the media, etc. that he has ignored and then doubled down when people called him out for being insensitive to others. I remember Curt being political back in the 2000s. That Curt would have gotten voted in, it's just sad to see him devolve over the years. This is exactly right. Surely among today's millionaire ballplayers there are many who think that taxes on the wealthy should be low, that government should be small and weak, that we should fight trade wars, etc. That's fine for the Hall. But "Rope. Tree. Journalist. Some assembly required." is beyond the pale. His support for the Jan 6 violence came after the voting, but is consistent with Rope, Tree etc. "In the past decade, at least 554 journalists have been killed worldwide" www.washingtonpost.com/world/2019/12/30/past-decade-least-journalists-were-killed-worldwide/
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Post by southernredsoxality on Jan 27, 2021 10:01:48 GMT -5
Even though this is not about the up coming hall of fame class, I think this is the best thread for it as it has to do with, well, the hall of fame. I was thinking about Mookie’s career and how incredibly unlucky he has gotten in his potential path to the hall. Now if he has 5-6 more Mookie like years, he’ll probably make it anyway but hear me out.
Remember he came up as a 2b, so if he had been part of another organization or had come up at a slightly different time in Red Sox history, the dude would be on pace to easily be one of the top 5 2b of all time, with a legit shot at the number one spot. But obviously Pedroia was here so he was moved to cf, yet another position where he would be on pace to be top 5-7 of all time and have much better shot at the hall than he does now. So of course he gets moved again to a much harder position when it comes to getting into Cooperstown.
Like I said at the top, if he has 5-6 more prime years left, it likely won’t matter, but I can’t think of a single player in MLB history who’s taken a more difficult route to a potential hall of fame career than Mookie when you consider his ability to play two other positions which would have made it significantly easier for him. That is all.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 27, 2021 10:07:37 GMT -5
Even though this is not about the up coming hall of fame class, I think this is the best thread for it as it has to do with, well, the hall of fame. I was thinking about Mookie’s career and how incredibly unlucky he has gotten in his potential path to the hall. Now if he has 5-6 more Mookie like years, he’ll probably make it anyway but hear me out. Remember he came up as a 2b, so if he had been part of another organization or had come up at a slightly different time in Red Sox history, the dude would be on pace to easily be one of the top 5 2b of all time, with a legit shot at the number one spot. But obviously Pedroia was here so he was moved to cf, yet another position where he would be on pace to be top 5-7 of all time and have much better shot at the hall than he does now. So of course he gets moved again to a much harder position when it comes to getting into Cooperstown. Like I said at the top, if he has 5-6 more prime years left, it likely won’t matter, but I can’t think of a single player in MLB history who’s taken a more difficult route to a potential hall of fame career than Mookie when you consider his ability to play two other positions which would have made it significantly easier for him. That is all. Good point, but the thing about the move is - long-time baseball fans correct me if I'm wrong - Mookie has got to be the best defensive RF in baseball since Roberto Clemente - would that be a reasonable statement? I mean I know Dave Parker, Jesse Barfield, and Raul Mondesi had cannons for arms and the Red Sox were blessed with Dwight Evans' excellence in RF year in and year out - I saw him in the 1980s when his hitting was improving and he wasn't quite what he was in defensively during the 1970s. But is there anybody else since Clemente or before Mookie that has been better in RF than Mookie defensively? So yes, if he had been a 2b, the bar offensively for Mookie would be lower, but at this point, I don't know. He's roughly where Nomar was - not quite long enough if it ended today. I think perhaps playing RF will play to his advantage as far as being able to have a longer career. 2b take a pounding and don't last too long. That's why we got the warning that Pedroia would be a bad long-term investment because of the way 2b drop off in their early 30s. Betts, with less wear and tear, and not even having to play CF, could last quite awhile, which would also play to his HOF advantage. Just keep Al Reyes away from him
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Post by azblue on Jan 27, 2021 10:18:27 GMT -5
"Even though Schilling was just 16 votes shy of making it to the hall of fame, the process has gotten him completely fed up. The former all-star pitcher took to Facebook and officially asked to be taken off the ballot for next year’s voting.
“I will not participate in the final year of voting,” Schilling wrote. “I am requesting to be removed from the ballot. I’ll defer to the veteran’s committee and men whose opinions actually matter.”
“I don’t think I’m a hall of famer as I’ve often stated,” he continued, “but if former players think I am then I’ll accept that with honor.”
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Post by southernredsoxality on Jan 27, 2021 10:24:54 GMT -5
Even though this is not about the up coming hall of fame class, I think this is the best thread for it as it has to do with, well, the hall of fame. I was thinking about Mookie’s career and how incredibly unlucky he has gotten in his potential path to the hall. Now if he has 5-6 more Mookie like years, he’ll probably make it anyway but hear me out. Remember he came up as a 2b, so if he had been part of another organization or had come up at a slightly different time in Red Sox history, the dude would be on pace to easily be one of the top 5 2b of all time, with a legit shot at the number one spot. But obviously Pedroia was here so he was moved to cf, yet another position where he would be on pace to be top 5-7 of all time and have much better shot at the hall than he does now. So of course he gets moved again to a much harder position when it comes to getting into Cooperstown. Like I said at the top, if he has 5-6 more prime years left, it likely won’t matter, but I can’t think of a single player in MLB history who’s taken a more difficult route to a potential hall of fame career than Mookie when you consider his ability to play two other positions which would have made it significantly easier for him. That is all. Good point, but the thing about the move is - long-time baseball fans correct me if I'm wrong - Mookie has got to be the best defensive RF in baseball since Roberto Clemente - would that be a reasonable statement? I mean I know Dave Parker, Jesse Barfield, and Raul Mondesi had cannons for arms and the Red Sox were blessed with Dwight Evans' excellence in RF year in and year out - I saw him in the 1980s when his hitting was improving and he wasn't quite what he was in defensively during the 1970s. But is there anybody else since Clemente or before Mookie that has been better in RF than Mookie defensively? So yes, if he had been a 2b, the bar offensively for Mookie would be lower, but at this point, I don't know. He's roughly where Nomar was - not quite long enough if it ended today. I think perhaps playing RF will play to his advantage as far as being able to have a longer career. 2b take a pounding and don't last too long. That's why we got the warning that Pedroia would be a bad long-term investment because of the way 2b drop off in their early 30s. Betts, with less wear and tear, and not even having to play CF, could last quite awhile, which would also play to his HOF advantage. Just keep Al Reyes away from him I don’t think the wear and tear of playing second would get to him until like 33-34, and by that time he would be a lock, similar to what happened to Robbie Alomar. Then there’s also a world in which he doesn’t completely fall off a cliff at that point and ages gracefully into retirement, unlike Alomar.
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Post by rasimon on Jan 27, 2021 10:33:30 GMT -5
Even though this is not about the up coming hall of fame class, I think this is the best thread for it as it has to do with, well, the hall of fame. I was thinking about Mookie’s career and how incredibly unlucky he has gotten in his potential path to the hall. Now if he has 5-6 more Mookie like years, he’ll probably make it anyway but hear me out. Remember he came up as a 2b, so if he had been part of another organization or had come up at a slightly different time in Red Sox history, the dude would be on pace to easily be one of the top 5 2b of all time, with a legit shot at the number one spot. But obviously Pedroia was here so he was moved to cf, yet another position where he would be on pace to be top 5-7 of all time and have much better shot at the hall than he does now. So of course he gets moved again to a much harder position when it comes to getting into Cooperstown. Like I said at the top, if he has 5-6 more prime years left, it likely won’t matter, but I can’t think of a single player in MLB history who’s taken a more difficult route to a potential hall of fame career than Mookie when you consider his ability to play two other positions which would have made it significantly easier for him. That is all. In JAWs terms, Mookie is already #26 all time among RFers. Just ahead of him are Elmer Flick and Enos Slaughter. Just behind him are Willie Keeler and Brian Giles. If he puts up two more years of 6 WAR per year - which looks extremely likely - he would move up to #15. Just ahead of him would be Shoeless Joe and Tony Gwynn. Just behind him would be Dwight Evans and Ichiro Suzuki.
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Post by rasimon on Jan 27, 2021 10:38:39 GMT -5
Even though this is not about the up coming hall of fame class, I think this is the best thread for it as it has to do with, well, the hall of fame. I was thinking about Mookie’s career and how incredibly unlucky he has gotten in his potential path to the hall. Now if he has 5-6 more Mookie like years, he’ll probably make it anyway but hear me out. Remember he came up as a 2b, so if he had been part of another organization or had come up at a slightly different time in Red Sox history, the dude would be on pace to easily be one of the top 5 2b of all time, with a legit shot at the number one spot. But obviously Pedroia was here so he was moved to cf, yet another position where he would be on pace to be top 5-7 of all time and have much better shot at the hall than he does now. So of course he gets moved again to a much harder position when it comes to getting into Cooperstown. Like I said at the top, if he has 5-6 more prime years left, it likely won’t matter, but I can’t think of a single player in MLB history who’s taken a more difficult route to a potential hall of fame career than Mookie when you consider his ability to play two other positions which would have made it significantly easier for him. That is all. Good point, but the thing about the move is - long-time baseball fans correct me if I'm wrong - Mookie has got to be the best defensive RF in baseball since Roberto Clemente - would that be a reasonable statement? I mean I know Dave Parker, Jesse Barfield, and Raul Mondesi had cannons for arms and the Red Sox were blessed with Dwight Evans' excellence in RF year in and year out - I saw him in the 1980s when his hitting was improving and he wasn't quite what he was in defensively during the 1970s. But is there anybody else since Clemente or before Mookie that has been better in RF than Mookie defensively? Ichiro? Brian Jordan?
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Post by manfred on Jan 27, 2021 10:40:59 GMT -5
Good point, but the thing about the move is - long-time baseball fans correct me if I'm wrong - Mookie has got to be the best defensive RF in baseball since Roberto Clemente - would that be a reasonable statement? I mean I know Dave Parker, Jesse Barfield, and Raul Mondesi had cannons for arms and the Red Sox were blessed with Dwight Evans' excellence in RF year in and year out - I saw him in the 1980s when his hitting was improving and he wasn't quite what he was in defensively during the 1970s. But is there anybody else since Clemente or before Mookie that has been better in RF than Mookie defensively? So yes, if he had been a 2b, the bar offensively for Mookie would be lower, but at this point, I don't know. He's roughly where Nomar was - not quite long enough if it ended today. I think perhaps playing RF will play to his advantage as far as being able to have a longer career. 2b take a pounding and don't last too long. That's why we got the warning that Pedroia would be a bad long-term investment because of the way 2b drop off in their early 30s. Betts, with less wear and tear, and not even having to play CF, could last quite awhile, which would also play to his HOF advantage. Just keep Al Reyes away from him I don’t think the wear and tear of playing second would get to him until like 33-34, and by that time he would be a lock, similar to what happened to Robbie Alomar. Then there’s also a world in which he doesn’t completely fall off a cliff at that point and ages gracefully into retirement, unlike Alomar. Mookie is over the JAWS 7-year peak average WAR in 5 full seasons booked-ended by two 50 game seasons. So if he has a big year this year and next, he’ll destroy that threshold. At that point, he could probably decline into a league-average player for the length of his contract and make it. He’s about 26 bWAR from HOF average. Last year’s pace alone could put him close to that in two years (though that pace is a lot to ask). Basically, if Mookie can limp to RF like Willis Reed for another ~8 seasons, he’s in. And this is a guy who’s been on a 10 bWAR pace 2 out of the last 3 seasons. He’s just hitting his peak.
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Post by ematz1423 on Jan 27, 2021 10:41:09 GMT -5
It'll be interesting to see if anyone gets in next year with the additions of Big Papi and Arod to the ballot. Will they overlook the alleged steroid use for them when they haven't done it for Bonds and Clemens? Some of the voters seem to vote based off what way the wind is blowing so we'll see.
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Post by manfred on Jan 27, 2021 10:43:27 GMT -5
It'll be interesting to see if anyone gets in next year with the additions of Big Papi and Arod to the ballot. Will they overlook the alleged steroid use for them when they haven't done it for Bonds and Clemens? Some of the voters seem to vote based off what way the wind is blowing so we'll see. No way you can pass on Bonds and Rocket and then let ARod in first ballot. Papi probably gets the same cold shoulder, but I hope not. He has the advantage of being the only truly beloved figure of the four.
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Post by ematz1423 on Jan 27, 2021 10:47:57 GMT -5
It'll be interesting to see if anyone gets in next year with the additions of Big Papi and Arod to the ballot. Will they overlook the alleged steroid use for them when they haven't done it for Bonds and Clemens? Some of the voters seem to vote based off what way the wind is blowing so we'll see. No way you can pass on Bonds and Rocket and then let ARod in first ballot. Papi probably gets the same cold shoulder, but I hope not. He has the advantage of being the only truly beloved figure of the four. I would tend to lean the same way as you, how can they justify voting them in next year when they haven't let Bonds or Clemens in yet? On the other hand both those guys are seemingly disliked, Papi sure isn't and honestly somehow Arod seems to be well liked now. Arods PR team are magicians or something. It'll be one of the more interesting years of voting I can remember. Papi probably won't be first ballot either way due to the whole DH thing. Some voters won't vote for him just based off that. It took Edgar Martinez 10 years of being on the ballot before getting in.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 27, 2021 10:51:16 GMT -5
Good point, but the thing about the move is - long-time baseball fans correct me if I'm wrong - Mookie has got to be the best defensive RF in baseball since Roberto Clemente - would that be a reasonable statement? I mean I know Dave Parker, Jesse Barfield, and Raul Mondesi had cannons for arms and the Red Sox were blessed with Dwight Evans' excellence in RF year in and year out - I saw him in the 1980s when his hitting was improving and he wasn't quite what he was in defensively during the 1970s. But is there anybody else since Clemente or before Mookie that has been better in RF than Mookie defensively? Ichiro? Brian Jordan? Ugh!!! Ichiro!!! Yes! How in the hell did I miss that!! Thank you! I didn't realize Brian Jordan was that good a right fielder. I remember him as a good hitting OF who also played football, but I'll take your word for it. I had forgotten that Ichiro was otherworldly in RF. In a way I'm really glad because when you look at his offensive numbers, he's got the 3000 hits, the speed and batting titles, but his OPS was never anything too particularly special, but when you add in that defense in RF, then yeah, he's a HOFer, not that he wouldn't be otherwise, but I think there are some holes you could poke in the argument, if not for what the defense added to his game. During the moneyball era of the aughts we all learned the value of those slow beefy guys who hit .240 but would walk a ton to have strong OBP and then back it up with a bunch of HRs so that the SA was sterling too. Those were the overlooked guys because of the low BA and high strikeout rates. We learned that the high BA, low walk, low power guys perhaps weren't as valuable offensively. But Ichiro was the best of that archetype, and now we appreciate a fuller picture and with Ichiro it was the speed that turned those endless supply of singles into doubles, and yeah, that defense in RF. He saved a bunch of runs with that defense. In these statistical times, we now look to a more balanced picture of a player offensively and defensively - and Ichiro's defense certainly propelled him. Thanks for the reminder!! I obviously needed it!
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Post by manfred on Jan 27, 2021 11:23:16 GMT -5
Ugh!!! Ichiro!!! Yes! How in the hell did I miss that!! Thank you! I didn't realize Brian Jordan was that good a right fielder. I remember him as a good hitting OF who also played football, but I'll take your word for it. I had forgotten that Ichiro was otherworldly in RF. In a way I'm really glad because when you look at his offensive numbers, he's got the 3000 hits, the speed and batting titles, but his OPS was never anything too particularly special, but when you add in that defense in RF, then yeah, he's a HOFer, not that he wouldn't be otherwise, but I think there are some holes you could poke in the argument, if not for what the defense added to his game. During the moneyball era of the aughts we all learned the value of those slow beefy guys who hit .240 but would walk a ton to have strong OBP and then back it up with a bunch of HRs so that the SA was sterling too. Those were the overlooked guys because of the low BA and high strikeout rates. We learned that the high BA, low walk, low power guys perhaps weren't as valuable offensively. But Ichiro was the best of that archetype, and now we appreciate a fuller picture and with Ichiro it was the speed that turned those endless supply of singles into doubles, and yeah, that defense in RF. He saved a bunch of runs with that defense. In these statistical times, we now look to a more balanced picture of a player offensively and defensively - and Ichiro's defense certainly propelled him. Thanks for the reminder!! I obviously needed it! Wait... if Ichiro were an average fielder, would his OPS really make you hesitate? Dude is the global hit king! I’d honestly say there are only a handful of players in history I’d vote for ahead of Ichiro.
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Post by benzinger on Jan 27, 2021 11:26:58 GMT -5
Curt tweeted some mean things and doesn’t believe men should be allowed to play women’s sports, so clearly he’s a monster and that negates him having a HOF resume and being one of the best postseason pitchers of all-time.
Let’s keep letting in lesser talents like Mussina and Jack Morris. At least they didn’t offend anyone. Nice work, sportswriters.
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