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Post by bluechip on Nov 17, 2020 3:01:16 GMT -5
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Post by James Dunne on Nov 17, 2020 7:44:09 GMT -5
I don't think Vizquel gets there as a player. But as a player + calligrapher I can see the argument.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 17, 2020 9:39:49 GMT -5
I don't think Vizquel gets there as a player. But as a player + calligrapher I can see the argument. I think Vizquel will get in sooner or later. I think he'll be looked at (correctly or incorrectly) as the Ozzie Smith of the 90s. I know there are a lot of writers who use modern stats who probably wouldn't put him in but there will be those old school writers who probably will. It might not be enough to get him his 75%. I can see him getting 60 - 65%, but I do think when the Veterans' Committee gets a hold of him, they will put him in the HOF. I think Schilling will finally get in this year - and he should. Clemens and Bonds will fall short. If I were a voter, I think this is the year I'd finally vote for them, although a part of me feels dirty doing so, and I totally understand somebody not wanting to vote them in. Meanwhile, I'll always hope that at some point that Dwight Evans and Luis Tiant get the call, although I suspect they never will. Same with Buck O'Neil and Gil Hodges.
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Post by bluechip on Nov 17, 2020 9:53:48 GMT -5
Clemens and Bonds will fall short. If I were a voter, I think this is the year I'd finally vote for them, although a part of me feels dirty doing so, and I totally understand somebody not wanting to vote them in. Bonds and Clemens best shot is next year, in year ten. Maybe, just maybe, there is enough support for their final year on the ballot.
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Post by electricityverdugo99 on Nov 17, 2020 10:12:16 GMT -5
Clemens and Bonds will fall short. If I were a voter, I think this is the year I'd finally vote for them, although a part of me feels dirty doing so, and I totally understand somebody not wanting to vote them in. Bonds and Clemens best shot is next year, in year ten. Maybe, just maybe, there is enough support for their final year on the ballot. If Bonds and Clemens don't get in the next 2 years, they'll never be in. The Veterans committee will never vote them in unless they radically change the next 10-20 years.
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Post by ortiz34 on Nov 17, 2020 10:23:10 GMT -5
Schilling this year.
Bonds and Clemens will get in next year(Writers will want to make the sweat).The next best player on the 2022 list is A-Rod, who is a confirmed roid user. If anyone is going to kick them out of contention, its Ortiz and Teixeira.
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Post by manfred on Nov 17, 2020 10:26:04 GMT -5
I think Schilling is one of the world’s worst people, but is the reason he isn’t in his personal views? That seems unfair to me, disgusting as he is.
Clemens and Bonds make the Hall a joke either way: if they are in, there are no consequences for cheating. If they are out, the absence of the best player ever and one of the best pitchers overshadows the rest of the members.
They should just set up a special wing, the Rogues Gallery, where people get the full story.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Nov 17, 2020 11:36:35 GMT -5
I'm not sure if next year is a better year for those guys. ARod and Papi get added to the ballot in a much stronger class (Teixeira and Rollins as well, who aren't necessarily great candidates, but I think they're better than this year's new guys) than this one (honestly, I bet nobody from this year's first-timers ever gets in). While I don't think Ortiz has a chance on the first ballot (if he gets in it might take a while) and ARod will be an absolutely fascinating situation, the fact that there's more new guys who will be taking votes makes it tougher.
Schilling was at 70% last year. With such a weak new class, I could see this being the year he gets that 5%. I don't think anyone else will make up enough ground.
But yeah, next year's class, especially if Clemens and Bonds don't get in this year, is going to be absolutely fascinating. I feel like Rodriguez has done much more effective image rehabilitation than either of those guys did, and I wonder how hypocritical voters will be with him as opposed to Bonds or Clemens, and the knots voters might tie themselves in trying to justify voting for ARod and not Bonds or Clemens.
Relevant to this forum, I also wonder how many votes Manny Ramirez will pick up this year. It's been kind of crazy to me how much he and a guy like Gary Sheffield have been afterthoughts in HOF voting so far. I get the issue with Manny is the multiple positive tests, but the dude was a hitting savant. I didn't even realize he had a .411 career OBP.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Nov 17, 2020 12:04:21 GMT -5
I'm not sure if next year is a better year for those guys. ARod and Papi get added to the ballot in a much stronger class (Teixeira and Rollins as well, who aren't necessarily great candidates, but I think they're better than this year's new guys) than this one (honestly, I bet nobody from this year's first-timers ever gets in). While I don't think Ortiz has a chance on the first ballot (if he gets in it might take a while) and ARod will be an absolutely fascinating situation, the fact that there's more new guys who will be taking votes makes it tougher. Schilling was at 70% last year. With such a weak new class, I could see this being the year he gets that 5%. I don't think anyone else will make up enough ground. But yeah, next year's class, especially if Clemens and Bonds don't get in this year, is going to be absolutely fascinating. I feel like Rodriguez has done much more effective image rehabilitation than either of those guys did, and I wonder how hypocritical voters will be with him as opposed to Bonds or Clemens, and the knots voters might tie themselves in trying to justify voting for ARod and not Bonds or Clemens. Relevant to this forum, I also wonder how many votes Manny Ramirez will pick up this year. It's been kind of crazy to me how much he and a guy like Gary Sheffield have been afterthoughts in HOF voting so far. I get the issue with Manny is the multiple positive tests, but the dude was a hitting savant. I didn't even realize he had a .411 career OBP. Your point about A-rod and his image rehab got me thinking about this - what is Bonds even doing right now? Not saying he needs to be in baseball or anything but I'm a little surprised that he doesn't pop up occassionally.
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Post by manfred on Nov 17, 2020 12:32:42 GMT -5
I'm not sure if next year is a better year for those guys. ARod and Papi get added to the ballot in a much stronger class (Teixeira and Rollins as well, who aren't necessarily great candidates, but I think they're better than this year's new guys) than this one (honestly, I bet nobody from this year's first-timers ever gets in). While I don't think Ortiz has a chance on the first ballot (if he gets in it might take a while) and ARod will be an absolutely fascinating situation, the fact that there's more new guys who will be taking votes makes it tougher. Schilling was at 70% last year. With such a weak new class, I could see this being the year he gets that 5%. I don't think anyone else will make up enough ground. But yeah, next year's class, especially if Clemens and Bonds don't get in this year, is going to be absolutely fascinating. I feel like Rodriguez has done much more effective image rehabilitation than either of those guys did, and I wonder how hypocritical voters will be with him as opposed to Bonds or Clemens, and the knots voters might tie themselves in trying to justify voting for ARod and not Bonds or Clemens. Relevant to this forum, I also wonder how many votes Manny Ramirez will pick up this year. It's been kind of crazy to me how much he and a guy like Gary Sheffield have been afterthoughts in HOF voting so far. I get the issue with Manny is the multiple positive tests, but the dude was a hitting savant. I didn't even realize he had a .411 career OBP. Manny is legitimately one of the greatest right-handed hitters in history. To me this is one of the things that makes the steroids era a bummer. Clemens, ARod, Bonds, Manny.... these were HOF guys pre-roids. Skinny Barry Bonds was already an awesome player. I wish we could know what they’d have done clean... in all these cases, I am sure it would have been enough.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Nov 17, 2020 13:16:35 GMT -5
Yup. By all accounts Manny was a maniac when it came to getting in the cage and honing his craft.
I've always been if the mind you put these guys in and put everything on the plaque including the bad stuff. If they don't want that, then fine, leave them out.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 17, 2020 13:21:36 GMT -5
Yup. By all accounts Manny was a maniac when it came to getting in the cage and honing his craft. I've always been if the mind you put these guys in and put everything on the plaque including the bad stuff. If they don't want that, then fine, leave them out. When Roger Maris broke Babe Ruth's HR record an asterisk was (unfairly) tacked onto the record and it created a stigma. Maybe inducting Manny Ramirez, Roger Clemens, and Barry Bonds with an asterisk on their plaque or something like that - something that makes it obvious to historians looking back that they would have been HOFers anyways but they enhanced their numbers by cheating - sort of like a permanent black mark against their record, maybe that would work. I can't say I blame anybody if they feel that they shouldn't get the honor at all.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Nov 17, 2020 13:27:28 GMT -5
Yup. By all accounts Manny was a maniac when it came to getting in the cage and honing his craft. I've always been if the mind you put these guys in and put everything on the plaque including the bad stuff. If they don't want that, then fine, leave them out. I think a separate section, posthumously voted on by the veterans committee, would be ideal for everyone. No fanfare. Get Rose and Jackson in there too. I just hope we don't get a known steroid user elected the normal way because that's going to lead to years of debating 'who was a hall of famer before they took steroids' - which we can never know.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Nov 17, 2020 13:36:13 GMT -5
Schilling is a sure thing this year. If he doesn't make it, it would mean nobody gets elected and that has rarely happened. He was at 70 percent last year and with no competition from first-timers, he'll get in with room to spare.
Bonds and Clemens just haven't advanced in their vote totals enough for me to think they're going to make it. There's a group of unmoveable voters who are adamant about not supporting them. That group is large enough (>25 percent) to keep them out.
Seeing Pedro make it in 2015 was a thrill. Ditto for Ortiz when he makes it. I feel nothing about Schilling making it, though I would vote for him. But his speech could be entertaining in a sick spectacle sort of way. Great P, disgusting person.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 17, 2020 13:48:04 GMT -5
Schilling is a sure thing this year. If he doesn't make it, it would mean nobody gets elected and that has rarely happened. He was at 70 percent last year and with no competition from first-timers, he'll get in with room to spare. Bonds and Clemens just haven't advanced in their vote totals enough for me to think they're going to make it. There's a group of unmoveable voters who are adamant about not supporting them. That group is large enough (>25 percent) to keep them out. Seeing Pedro make it in 2015 was a thrill. Ditto for Ortiz when he makes it. I feel nothing about Schilling making it, though I would vote for him. But his speech could be entertaining in a sick spectacle sort of way. Great P, disgusting person. I loved Curt Schilling the baseball player. He was the guy I wanted the Red Sox to get, from the time he was with Arizonaa. I totally enjoyed his insights about the game and his charity work and his desire to eradicate ALS. I enjoyed reading him on SOSH. I will always appreciate the sacrifices to his career he made when he had that experimental surgery so he could pitch against NYY and then the Cards in 2004. From a baseball perspective, that was downright heroic, and for baseball purposes I'd easily vote for him for HOF and happily shake his hand (metaphorically speaking) in gratitude, but for everything else......
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Post by Oregon Norm on Nov 17, 2020 13:59:32 GMT -5
I believe Scott Rolen is absolutely deserving of a place in the HoF and I'm not the only one. That's Fangraph's take on his Jaws case and it's a strong one (the comments at the bottom are hilarious for all you Yankee haters). I have no idea why people think otherwise. In his prime he was the best third baseman I watched play. His peak with the bat was outstanding, just a great player. He easily eclipses some of the third baseman who've gotten into the Hall. It's time to recruit posters to help me develop an all-world team, none of whom have made it into the HoF, a team that would likely compete with just about any that could be put on the field from the Cooperstown archives. I'll start with Rolen, Bobby Grich, Lou Whitaker, and Dwight Evans. But I'll bet all of you have names you'd like to add. Let's get that roster filled out!
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Nov 17, 2020 14:58:17 GMT -5
You've got two second basemen. I'd take Whitaker. Blyleven, Morris, Score (before the line drive), Trammel, Boog Powel, Nellie Fox (another second baseman I'd take over Grich as well as Richardson), Aparicio. Others but I'll sleep on it.
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Post by incandenza on Nov 17, 2020 15:28:52 GMT -5
Damn, Vizquel's marginalia game is really on point. That's gotta be the equivalent of at least 5 career WAR.
If'n it were me, I'd vote for:
Schilling Clemens Bonds Helton Jones Rolen Manny Sheffield
The only one I feel a little iffy about is Helton. (Well, and Schilling, for reasons others have stated; but I would vote for him.) On the other side, I would consider Sosa, but he's one where I'm just not sure he'd be HOF-caliber without the roiding, and the bat-corking on top of that points to a... let's say a certain pattern of behavior.
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Post by unitspin on Nov 17, 2020 16:21:43 GMT -5
The fact ppl can keep a straight face with biggio and bagwell in the hof and leaving bonds and clemens out. Gets an eye roll from me.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 17, 2020 16:50:26 GMT -5
I love this time of year, when we remember how messed up the HOF voting process is. The let's punish guys and years on the ballot somehow equal your standing in the game even if it F's up other players who drop off way too soon.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Nov 17, 2020 17:01:22 GMT -5
You've got two second basemen. I'd take Whitaker. Blyleven, Morris, Score (before the line drive), Trammel, Boog Powel, Nellie Fox (another second baseman I'd take over Grich as well as Richardson), Aparicio. Others but I'll sleep on it. Grich was primarily a second baseman, but he played a bit of shortstop and at third also. He was a good all around defender, and he'd make a helluva utility infielder at the very least.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Nov 17, 2020 19:38:40 GMT -5
It's time to recruit posters to help me develop an all-world team, none of whom have made it into the HoF, a team that would likely compete with just about any that could be put on the field from the Cooperstown archives. I'll start with Rolen, Bobby Grich, Lou Whitaker, and Dwight Evans. But I'll bet all of you have names you'd like to add. Let's get that roster filled out! Tiant's your No. 1 starter. B-Ref WAR of 65.6 would put him at about the median of HOF SP, not counting the 19th century guys. It's really a joke that he's not in the HOF. The RS waged a big PR campaign to get Jim Rice in and I've always been disappointed they haven't done the same for Tiant or Evans.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Nov 17, 2020 20:00:05 GMT -5
I was surprised a while back when I checked out his numbers. They were much better than I had remembered. I knew about his time with the Sox, he carried the team through most of the 70s, but he had a career beyond that.
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Post by unitspin on Nov 17, 2020 21:09:00 GMT -5
It's time to recruit posters to help me develop an all-world team, none of whom have made it into the HoF, a team that would likely compete with just about any that could be put on the field from the Cooperstown archives. I'll start with Rolen, Bobby Grich, Lou Whitaker, and Dwight Evans. But I'll bet all of you have names you'd like to add. Let's get that roster filled out! Tiant's your No. 1 starter. B-Ref WAR of 65.6 would put him at about the median of HOF SP, not counting the 19th century guys. It's really a joke that he's not in the HOF. The RS waged a big PR campaign to get Jim Rice in and I've always been disappointed they haven't done the same for Tiant or Evans. Jim Rice one the nicest guys I've ever met. Glad he made the Hall shouldn't have taken as long as it did, part of the reason I have zero respect for the majority of sports writers. Tiant I never met but always seems 100% on the broadcast.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 17, 2020 23:58:12 GMT -5
You've got two second basemen. I'd take Whitaker. Blyleven, Morris, Score (before the line drive), Trammel, Boog Powel, Nellie Fox (another second baseman I'd take over Grich as well as Richardson), Aparicio. Others but I'll sleep on it. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the point but I thought it was to create your best non-HOF elected squad. If so, Trammell, Fox, Morris, and Aparicio wouldn't qualify because they're all in the HOF. I agree with Grich and Whitaker as being big omissions, along with Tiant, Evans, Hodges (I can see the argument for Boog Powell, but I'd go with Hodges). McGriff is somebody I feel should definitely be in. I think Kenny Lofton and Jim Edmonds should get more consideration than they did. Ditto with Bernie Williams and possibly Jorge Posada. And it doesn't feel right that Buck O'Neil didn't get his plaque. For this year if I was doing the ballot I'd vote in: Schilling Rolen Helton A Jones Kent Vizquel Sheffield* Bonds* Clemens* Manny** Schilling is a no-doubter for me, and I'd feel comfortable with Rolen. The rest is a fair debate between the Hall of Very Good versus HOF, so I'm not as enthusiastic about the rest of the list that's not starred off. Helton was a product of Colorado, sure, but he was a very good hitter who took total advantage of Coors. What are we supposed to do? Never put in a Rockies hitter? Jones was quietly great, but he lost it kind of like Jim Rice. Kent was an excellent offensive 2b. Between Whitaker and Grich, 2b seem to get the shaft in the HOF voting. Vizquel was sort of the Ozzie of his generation and a key part of those strong Indians team in the second half of the 90s. If Aparacio and Smith can get in, why not Vizquel? I know, I know - not a convincing argument. The rest are PEDs tainted with Manny being the worst for being busted (twice!!) after testing. This is the first time in a while I compiled a list that I don't feel overly enthusiastic about and have trouble defending.
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