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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 18, 2020 0:08:59 GMT -5
It's time to recruit posters to help me develop an all-world team, none of whom have made it into the HoF, a team that would likely compete with just about any that could be put on the field from the Cooperstown archives. I'll start with Rolen, Bobby Grich, Lou Whitaker, and Dwight Evans. But I'll bet all of you have names you'd like to add. Let's get that roster filled out! Tiant's your No. 1 starter. B-Ref WAR of 65.6 would put him at about the median of HOF SP, not counting the 19th century guys. It's really a joke that he's not in the HOF. The RS waged a big PR campaign to get Jim Rice in and I've always been disappointed they haven't done the same for Tiant or Evans. I feel the same way. As it was, Jim Rice really shouldn't have been a slam dunk for the HOF. He is a "marginal" HOF, like a lot of them that do get voted in or just miss. He had a dominant peak but his career didn't last too long. I honestly feel that Dwight Evans is more of a HOFer than Jim Rice. Evans during the first half of his career was one of the premier RF in the league and an ok offensive player, but during the 1980s, he was an excellent offensive player - the walks he compiled were underrated. He didn't have the peak that Rice had but he maintained similar career stats through a longer period of time. Rice had the higher BA, but Evans' patience at the plate made his OBP comparable if not better than Rice. Rice had a better SA if I'm not mistaken, but I think their OPS was comparable and if Rice had the edge there Evans had the edge on defense. I suspect the reason why Rice got all of the PR campaign has to do with a simple fact that other than in the Senior League (anybody remember that short-lived league of retired ballplayers?), Jim Rice has never worn another uniform or been associated with another team other than the Boston Red Sox. While he's not thought of as Mr Red Sox, like Pesky was (despite the fact that he played and managed in other organizations), Jim Rice has been the ultimate company man. John Henry wanted him on NESN even though Rice isn't exactly the most engaging personality because he wanted Rice to continue to be front and center with the Red Sox. Dwight Evans has been in and out of the Red Sox organization since they let him go in 1990 thinking he'd retire. Instead he played for Baltimore, and coached with the White Sox and Rockies. Luis Tiant bounced around after his time with the Red Sox, although he has been a part of the organization for awhile, even if it's in the background. Luis Tiant has numbers comparable to Catfish Hunter and Jim Bunning (and even Curt Schilling). I really hope the Red Sox to put the PR campaign on overdrive to try to get the Veterans' Committee to reconsider Tiant and Evans, even though I don't think it will do them any good. In the mean time, I'd very much like to see them honor Dwight Evans and Luis Tiant by retiring their numbers 24 and 23, respectively, and not wait for the HOF to do right by then, in order to retire their number.
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 2,771
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Post by mobaz on Nov 18, 2020 6:34:15 GMT -5
I was shocked Evans and Tiant didn't get much consideration at the last Veterans go around given who they did move through. Evans is an era-adjusted travesty.
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Post by incandenza on Nov 18, 2020 11:38:23 GMT -5
Tiant's your No. 1 starter. B-Ref WAR of 65.6 would put him at about the median of HOF SP, not counting the 19th century guys. It's really a joke that he's not in the HOF. The RS waged a big PR campaign to get Jim Rice in and I've always been disappointed they haven't done the same for Tiant or Evans. Jim Rice one the nicest guys I've ever met. Glad he made the Hall shouldn't have taken as long as it did, part of the reason I have zero respect for the majority of sports writers. Tiant I never met but always seems 100% on the broadcast. By all means, have zero respect for most sports writers (at least the old crusty ones), but not for that reason - Jim Rice is really one of the most dubious inductees to the Hall of Fame: I agree with others that Dwight Evans is more deserving. And Luis Tiant is kind of borderline, but coolness points should put him over the top.
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Post by manfred on Nov 18, 2020 12:14:50 GMT -5
I know I am in the minority, but I am a small-hall guy. They let too many guys in as it is. To me, you need to have been transcendent— people need to have paid to see you when you came to town.
When I was a kid, I used to go to spring training every year before it was a zoo. I’d wait outside by the visiting bus with an eye to getting one or two key autographs... Ripken and Murray when the Orioles came, that kind of thing. The aura to me matters. When I think of Bobby Grich, I remember, er... nothing? A mustache? I’ve gotten to know him far better decades after his career as stat revisionists tell me he was far better than he seemed.
Dude was a very good player. But he doesn’t pass the must-see test.
And spare me the “what-about” game: like I said, I’m a small-hall guy, so I already think guys have gotten in who don’t deserve it.
Add: Dewey, too. The guy was never the best player on his own team.. maybe never top-2. He was remarkably solid. Sox HOFer. But there is something to capturing the imagination. They don’t make movies of Roy Hobbs walking and playing great D. They make movies of guys doing thrilling things.
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Post by incandenza on Nov 18, 2020 12:25:24 GMT -5
Remember when Mariano Rivera was the first guy to ever be voted in unanimously? That was weird. There were legitimate arguments you could make against him, unlike quite a few other Hall of Famers. I mean, he was a reliever for pete's sake! I'd have probably voted for him, but I would have at least had to think about it. I'd certainly have voted Rolen in before him.
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Post by manfred on Nov 18, 2020 12:32:27 GMT -5
Remember when Mariano Rivera was the first guy to ever be voted in unanimously? That was weird. There were legitimate arguments you could make against him, unlike quite a few other Hall of Famers. I mean, he was a reliever for pete's sake! I'd have probably voted for him, but I would have at least had to think about it. I'd certainly have voted Rolen in before him. The “unanimous” thing was always such a drag. Some idiot would not vote for a Ripken or whomever because they wanted to, what, keep the percentage under better players’? There are so many no-brainers in history that should have been unanimous — which is the reason Mo being unanimous might seem off. He deserved in, so no reason anyone shouldn’t have voted yes... it just shouldn’t have stood out historically.
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Post by manfred on Nov 18, 2020 15:42:18 GMT -5
I guess Robinson Cano is not getting in.
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Post by incandenza on Nov 18, 2020 16:55:42 GMT -5
Remember when Mariano Rivera was the first guy to ever be voted in unanimously? That was weird. There were legitimate arguments you could make against him, unlike quite a few other Hall of Famers. I mean, he was a reliever for pete's sake! I'd have probably voted for him, but I would have at least had to think about it. I'd certainly have voted Rolen in before him. The “unanimous” thing was always such a drag. Some idiot would not vote for a Ripken or whomever because they wanted to, what, keep the percentage under better players’? There are so many no-brainers in history that should have been unanimous — which is the reason Mo being unanimous might seem off. He deserved in, so no reason anyone shouldn’t have voted yes... it just shouldn’t have stood out historically. Yeah, agree about the unanimous thing. One of the reasons I might not have voted for Rivera, though, is that you could've easily made a case for more than 10 guys to make it into the hall of fame from that class, in which case you might be inclined to leave off the guy who had fewer than 1300 career IP. Like there were 14 guys on that completely loaded ballot with more career WAR than Mo, and while WAR should not be the be-all-end-all for choosing hall of famers, especially for relievers, you could defensibly argue that 10 of those guys were more deserving than him. But not a single voter came to that conclusion, which I find surprising. And no voter was like "well I think 12 guys deserve to get in, and since Mo will definitely get in I'll use my vote for a borderline guy instead," which would also be defensible. I guess Robinson Cano is not getting in. Ha, that was also my first thought. He was headed toward having an interesting case, too, especially if he could scrounge up another 376 hits to get to 3000. That'll be a lot harder for him to do now. (Of course that's on top of the black mark of doing the wrong sort of drugs.)
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TearsIn04
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Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Nov 18, 2020 17:20:29 GMT -5
Add: Dewey, too. The guy was never the best player on his own team.. maybe never top-2. He was remarkably solid. Sox HOFer. But there is something to capturing the imagination. They don’t make movies of Roy Hobbs walking and playing great D. They make movies of guys doing thrilling things. Yes, he was. He led the team in WAR by big margins in '81 and '82 with 6.7 and 6.4. The second-place guys, Carney Lansford and Wade Boggs, were below 4. He was second to Boggs in '84 and '87. The guy was a stud. Quick comparison: People don't question Dave Winfield's HOF credentials. He had 64.2 career WAR, less than Dewey. Dewey did do thrilling things. His catch in game 6 of the 1975 WS wasn't thrilling? It wasn't thrilling to see him charge a ball like an IFer and throw a one-hop laser to nail a runner at the plate? He had three years of OBP > .400, as well as years of .388, .393 and .397. That's thrilling because it wins games. Dewey's defense might be underrated by WAR because of his era. He had total WAR of 67.1 but d-WAR of -3.8, which doesn't seem realistic, even considering that a lot of that is due to his negative numbers in his final few years. More realistic dWAR numbers would raise his overall WAR.
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jimoh
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Posts: 3,977
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Post by jimoh on Nov 18, 2020 18:58:15 GMT -5
Add: Dewey, too. The guy was never the best player on his own team.. maybe never top-2. He was remarkably solid. Sox HOFer. But there is something to capturing the imagination. They don’t make movies of Roy Hobbs walking and playing great D. They make movies of guys doing thrilling things. Yes, he was. He led the team in WAR by big margins in '81 and '82 with 6.7 and 6.4. The second-place guys, Carney Lansford and Wade Boggs, were below 4. He was second to Boggs in '84 and '87. The guy was a stud. Quick comparison: People don't question Dave Winfield's HOF credentials. He had 64.2 career WAR, less than Dewey. Dewey did do thrilling things. His catch in game 6 of the 1975 WS wasn't thrilling? It wasn't thrilling to see him charge a ball like an IFer and throw a one-hop laser to nail a runner at the plate? He had three years of OBP > .400, as well as years of .388, .393 and .397. That's thrilling because it wins games. Dewey's defense might be underrated by WAR because of his era. He had total WAR of 67.1 but d-WAR of -3.8, which doesn't seem realistic, even considering that a lot of that is due to his negative numbers in his final few years. More realistic dWAR numbers would raise his overall WAR. Both Dwight Evans and Jim Rice partly cemented people's views of them when they were young: Rice as a terrifying hitter and Evans as a promising hitter who wasn't that great and was platooned. You had to be paying attention and to appreciate the value of walks to know how much Rice declined and Evans improved and soared after that. Evans also was often better after the All-Star break than before, which hurt him in All-Star appearances.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Nov 18, 2020 18:58:47 GMT -5
Jim Rice one the nicest guys I've ever met. Glad he made the Hall shouldn't have taken as long as it did, part of the reason I have zero respect for the majority of sports writers. Tiant I never met but always seems 100% on the broadcast. By all means, have zero respect for most sports writers (at least the old crusty ones), but not for that reason - Jim Rice is really one of the most dubious inductees to the Hall of Fame: I agree with others that Dwight Evans is more deserving. And Luis Tiant is kind of borderline, but coolness points should put him over the top. Tiant's not borderline.
This is my empirically accurate versions of JAWS, Hall Worthiness, which is 2 * WAR5 + Career WAR.
Excluding 19th century, and without any adjustment for larger WAR totals in the 4-man rotation, CG era:
More qualified, eligible, not on ballot
Wes Ferrell (because hitting) Kevin Brown
In Hall, less qualified
Ted Lyons Mordecai Brown John Smoltz Don Sutton Early Wynn Burleigh Grimes Dizzy Dean Eppa Rixey Addie Joss Whitey Ford Bob Lemon Jack Chesbro Herb Pennock Waite Hoyt Lefty Gomez Chief Bender ..
..
.. .. .. Catfish Hunter (difference between him and Bender is the same as that between Bender and Ford)
Yeah, Tiant's exact contemporary breezed into the hall as the worst selection of all time, by far.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Nov 18, 2020 19:46:03 GMT -5
I know I am in the minority, but I am a small-hall guy. They let too many guys in as it is. To me, you need to have been transcendent— people need to have paid to see you when you came to town. You're more that welcome to go start your own Hall, you know.
But it has never, ever, ever been that. You're just redefining it to your own tastes, in contradiction to the BWAA. There's a level of performance where every single player from before expansion is in in the Hall (except Sherry Magee from the hitters and Wes Ferrell among the pitchers, but in each case the next bunch of guys are in).
Above that line there are 45 hitters from the first 55 years of the century (in terms of when they hit their peak), and the last 10 are:
Goose Goslin, Enos Slaughter, George Sisler, Gabby Hartnett (with a C adjustment), Richie Ashburn, Elmer Flick, Bill Terry, Jimmy Collins, Ralph Kiner, and Billy Herman.
There are 37 more guys in the Hall from that era below that limit.
You know how many hitters in those 45 years fit your description? Fifteen.
Did folks pay just to see Johnny Mize, Charlie Gehringer, Arky Vaughan, Luke Appling, Yogi Berra, Frankie Frisch, Harry Heilmann, Duke Snider, Peewee Reese, and Al Simmons when they came to town? (You might pay to hear Yogi talk.) They're the next 10 most Hall-worthy guys after those 15.
Ruth, Williams, Cobb, Musial, Hornsby, Wagner, Gehrig, Speaker, Eddie Collins, Lajoie, Fox, Ott, DiMaggio, Greenberg, Jackie Robinson. That's it for transcendent talents among hitters in the first 55 years of baseball history.
Of the 59 post-expansion hitters who are in, only 11 are short of the level where everyone historically gets in. The first three, though, qualify if you adjust for era: Killebrew, Stargell, and Vlad Sr. Only 8 guys have been debatable: Winfield, Perez (but he was genuinely great in the clutch his whole career), Rice, Puckett (but his career was cut short), Cepeda, Aparicio, Brock, and Mazeroski.
How many guys have been passed over that meet that standard, excluding the PED-tainted?
Grich, Lofton, Dick Allen, Buddy Bell, Nettles, Dwight Evans, Lou Whitaker, Jim Edmonds. There's just no warrant keeping them out of the Hall when literally every hitter who was that great from 1900 to 1955 is in, along with 40 or so guys who weren't as great. [Sherry Magee has Edmonds' numbers, but the tie goes to the modern player.]
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Nov 18, 2020 20:19:47 GMT -5
Yeah I'm fine with the opinion that the HOF should have been smaller, but we've crossed that rubicon and there's no going back.
Just as a point of information, this is empirically false. Using bWAR, he was second to Tiante in '74, second to Lynn in '75, first by nearly 3 WAR in '81, first by 2.5 WAR in '82, second to Boggs in '84. And there were a number of years when the players he was behind, while more than one, were guys like Lynn, Rice, Eck, Boggs, and Clemens. It's not like he was just a very good player who was always a cog in the wheel. The dude averaged 4 bWAR a year for 16 seasons. Had a couple of top-5 MVP seasons. He's certainly no shoo-in, but I don't think he's as easily dismissed as you make it sound.
As for "thrilling things," I submit the following for the approval of the midnight society:
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TearsIn04
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Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
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Post by TearsIn04 on Nov 18, 2020 21:12:20 GMT -5
Just as a point of information, this is empirically false. Using bWAR, he was second to Tiante in '74, second to Lynn in '75, first by nearly 3 WAR in '81, first by 2.5 WAR in '82, second to Boggs in '84. Wow, this is fascinating! For my post about Dewey's WAR, I (stupidly, as it turns out) didn't bother looking to see where he ranked on the team in his early years. I think of him as having turned stud in the early '80s. I never would have guessed that he was the best position player on the team as early as '74 and second best on the storied '75 team. I also focused just on position players. I totally agree with Champs, who said the RS should retire 23 and 24. They should also put placards up on that facade for Cy Young and Tris Speaker. They'd easily qualify as retired numbers guys if they didn't lack one thing: numbers. They are all-time greats who led us to championships before players wore digits on their backs. It seems absurd that they're not recognized as franchise icons.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 18, 2020 22:14:32 GMT -5
Just as a point of information, this is empirically false. Using bWAR, he was second to Tiante in '74, second to Lynn in '75, first by nearly 3 WAR in '81, first by 2.5 WAR in '82, second to Boggs in '84. Wow, this is fascinating! For my post about Dewey's WAR, I (stupidly, as it turns out) didn't bother looking to see where he ranked on the team in his early years. I think of him as having turned stud in the early '80s. I never would have guessed that he was the best position player on the team as early as '74 and second best on the storied '75 team. I also focused just on position players. I totally agree with Champs, who said the RS should retire 23 and 24. They should also put placards up on that facade for Cy Young and Tris Speaker. They'd easily qualify as retired numbers guys if they didn't lack one thing: numbers. They are all-time greats who led us to championships before players wore digits on their backs. It seems absurd that they're not recognized as franchise icons. Great idea about the players from the first dynasty era. They should be honored. I'd add Jimmy Collins, too. You can debate Babe Ruth and Smokey Joe Wood, although I'd say their tenure was too short. I'd also add Jimmie Foxx's #3 and Lefty Grove's #10 as well.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Nov 18, 2020 23:42:04 GMT -5
I know I am in the minority, but I am a small-hall guy. They let too many guys in as it is. To me, you need to have been transcendent— people need to have paid to see you when you came to town. When I was a kid, I used to go to spring training every year before it was a zoo. I’d wait outside by the visiting bus with an eye to getting one or two key autographs... Ripken and Murray when the Orioles came, that kind of thing. The aura to me matters. When I think of Bobby Grich, I remember, er... nothing? A mustache? I’ve gotten to know him far better decades after his career as stat revisionists tell me he was far better than he seemed. Dude was a very good player. But he doesn’t pass the must-see test. And spare me the “what-about” game: like I said, I’m a small-hall guy, so I already think guys have gotten in who don’t deserve it. Add: Dewey, too. The guy was never the best player on his own team.. maybe never top-2. He was remarkably solid. Sox HOFer. But there is something to capturing the imagination. They don’t make movies of Roy Hobbs walking and playing great D. They make movies of guys doing thrilling things. That mustache had some meat behind it. Living in Las Vegas at the time, I followed the Angels and they signed him in 1977. Excluding that 1977 season (when he was injured and only played 52 games) he averaged 6 bWAR from 1972 to 1981. He's easily one of the top ten second baseman who ever played the game. Even when he played short and third, there was little lost. Very good fielder who seemed to always be on base or pounding out extra-base hits. He probably suffered from playing on the West Coast. There never seemed to be much national coverage of those late-night games, and there were no smartphones to take to bed with you and catch those games. It's a different world now.
There's also a connection to Evans: they tied for the lead in HRs in the strike-shortened 1981 season. Even then, Grich pulled 5.5 wins. He wasn't just a good player, he was a great one.
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Post by incandenza on Nov 18, 2020 23:43:40 GMT -5
By all means, have zero respect for most sports writers (at least the old crusty ones), but not for that reason - Jim Rice is really one of the most dubious inductees to the Hall of Fame: I agree with others that Dwight Evans is more deserving. And Luis Tiant is kind of borderline, but coolness points should put him over the top. Tiant's not borderline.
This is my empirically accurate versions of JAWS, Hall Worthiness, which is 2 * WAR5 + Career WAR.
Excluding 19th century, and without any adjustment for larger WAR totals in the 4-man rotation, CG era:
More qualified, eligible, not on ballot
Wes Ferrell (because hitting) Kevin Brown
In Hall, less qualified
Ted Lyons Mordecai Brown John Smoltz Don Sutton Early Wynn Burleigh Grimes Dizzy Dean Eppa Rixey Addie Joss Whitey Ford Bob Lemon Jack Chesbro Herb Pennock Waite Hoyt Lefty Gomez Chief Bender ..
..
.. .. .. Catfish Hunter (difference between him and Bender is the same as that between Bender and Ford)
Yeah, Tiant's exact contemporary breezed into the hall as the worst selection of all time, by far.
I have long harbored a suspicion that having a fun name was worth about a 20% boost over career WAR total when it comes to HOF consideration, and this list pretty much confirms that. (Correlatively, it appears Kevin Brown got docked a similar amount.) A positive indicator for Mookie Betts, incidentally, not that he'll need the help.
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ericmvan
Veteran
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Posts: 8,926
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Post by ericmvan on Nov 19, 2020 7:56:13 GMT -5
Tiant's not borderline.
This is my empirically accurate versions of JAWS, Hall Worthiness, which is 2 * WAR5 + Career WAR.
Excluding 19th century, and without any adjustment for larger WAR totals in the 4-man rotation, CG era:
More qualified, eligible, not on ballot
Wes Ferrell (because hitting) Kevin Brown
In Hall, less qualified
Ted Lyons Mordecai Brown John Smoltz Don Sutton Early Wynn Burleigh Grimes Dizzy Dean Eppa Rixey Addie Joss Whitey Ford Bob Lemon Jack Chesbro Herb Pennock Waite Hoyt Lefty Gomez Chief Bender ..
..
.. .. .. Catfish Hunter (difference between him and Bender is the same as that between Bender and Ford)
Yeah, Tiant's exact contemporary breezed into the hall as the worst selection of all time, by far.
I have long harbored a suspicion that having a fun name was worth about a 20% boost over career WAR total when it comes to HOF consideration, and this list pretty much confirms that. (Correlatively, it appears Kevin Brown got docked a similar amount.) A positive indicator for Mookie Betts, incidentally, not that he'll need the help. Ten of those 17 guys have unusual first names! I never noticed that.
Earl Wynn with 298 wins is not in the Hall.
Vinegar Bend Mizell looked like a sure thing when he had 4.4 WAR at age 22. But that was his best year.
But the guy really kicking himself is Vida Blue, who had 34.7 WAR at age 28 and just 10.1 after that.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 19, 2020 8:34:09 GMT -5
I have long harbored a suspicion that having a fun name was worth about a 20% boost over career WAR total when it comes to HOF consideration, and this list pretty much confirms that. (Correlatively, it appears Kevin Brown got docked a similar amount.) A positive indicator for Mookie Betts, incidentally, not that he'll need the help. Ten of those 17 guys have unusual first names! I never noticed that. Earl Wynn with 298 wins is not in the Hall.
Vinegar Bend Mizell looked like a sure thing when he had 4.4 WAR at age 22. But that was his best year. But the guy really kicking himself is Vida Blue, who had 34.7 WAR at age 28 and just 10.1 after that.
I guess you can add flashy nicknames like Doc Gooden, Fernando Valenzuela, and King Felix to that list, guys who were so successful very young, like Blue, who looked like they were very likely HOFers but fell short. Good point about Wes Ferrell. I think with his his attitude and the stigma of having an ERA around (I think it was over) 4, even though it was an extreme hitters era and he pitched in a hitters' park - worked against him. The guy could also hit very well, too. He was the Ferrell brother that should have gotten in, not his brother Rick. Somebody brought up the name Dick Allen - he should get a lot of consideration, too. I don't know where people stand on Carlos Delgado, but perhaps he should get a look, too? Probably not, but I thought I'd ask. He was a HR hitting 1b in an era of HR hitters, so he is probably not considered as much.
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Post by ortiz34 on Nov 19, 2020 10:19:44 GMT -5
Its going to be interesting for Roger. If he gets in, the Sox are probably honor him. Even though there will be fan backlash, his number will probably be retired. 21 hasn't been worn since he left.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 19, 2020 11:10:29 GMT -5
Its going to be interesting for Roger. If he gets in, the Sox are probably honor him. Even though there will be fan backlash, his number will probably be retired. 21 hasn't been worn since he left. It sounds like that's what the Red Sox are waiting for. They've "welcomed" him back into the family, so to speak. He's appeared on NESN doing a few innings here and there (he was actually pretty good at breaking down the pitching he was watching). He was elected to the Red Sox HOF. I think whatever hard feelings existed are pretty much gone. That was more his relationship with Dan Duquette. I get the desire to punish him. The PEDs issue. The Yankees issue particularly. The irony is that his $ choice in 2007 prevented him from not only setting the Red Sox all-time win record, but it actually cost him a World Series ring ironically. It might have made up for the one he didn't get in 1986. So while there are plenty of reasons not to honor him, I keep coming back to that he was a slam-dunk HOFer with the Red Sox during most of his 13 seasons with the Red Sox. I don't think the Red Sox had had the "best" pitcher in baseball in an awfully long time - maybe since Joe Wood in 1912 or Cy Young in his early days. You can't deny what Clemens was with the Red Sox, so his #21, whether he's in the HOF or not should definitely be retired. Maybe somebody can verify this, but I do think that the Red Sox thought about giving his number 21 away to Josh Beckett when he first came to the Red Sox, but I think he declined. As it was, there is a 2006 Topps baseball card airbrushed showing Beckett wearing the #21 in a Red Sox uniform.
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Post by ortiz34 on Nov 19, 2020 12:35:40 GMT -5
If I remember correctly the Sox did not want to give Beckett 21. They have locked up that number tight.
No one talks about why Clemens took roids. We know Bonds took them after a conversation with Griffey, and how much better he could be with them. With Clemens, we can only guess that it was to revive his career.
As for the Yankees, first time he was traded. As for 07, our staff was already loaded. Beckett, Schilling, Dice-K, Lester, Wakefield. The Yankees were still in the race for the division, and needed a starter. So they gave him stupid money for HALF a season. Now the Sox have welcomed him back with open arms, while the Yankees have avoided him.
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Post by chrisfromnc on Nov 19, 2020 13:49:12 GMT -5
It sounds like that's what the Red Sox are waiting for. They've "welcomed" him back into the family, so to speak. He's appeared on NESN doing a few innings here and there (he was actually pretty good at breaking down the pitching he was watching). He was elected to the Red Sox HOF. I think whatever hard feelings existed are pretty much gone. That was more his relationship with Dan Duquette. Every time I’ve watched him do a few innings, he was excellent. Like I’m listening to him break down a pitch selection or an at-bat and I think, how come nobody else talks about a baseball game this way? I think he’s as good as you can be on TV, at least for the short stretches that he does it. I always come back around to being a fan of players I rooted for even if I spent some time not liking them. Many here dislike Boggs, Clemens, Nomar and other stars who played for other teams and had unflattering things to say about the Red Sox. I’m not one of those people. I hope Roger is in the HoF because he was a brilliant pitcher.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 19, 2020 14:04:01 GMT -5
If I remember correctly the Sox did not want to give Beckett 21. They have locked up that number tight. No one talks about why Clemens took roids. We know Bonds took them after a conversation with Griffey, and how much better he could be with them. With Clemens, we can only guess that it was to revive his career. As for the Yankees, first time he was traded. As for 07, our staff was already loaded. Beckett, Schilling, Dice-K, Lester, Wakefield. The Yankees were still in the race for the division, and needed a starter. So they gave him stupid money for HALF a season. Now the Sox have welcomed him back with open arms, while the Yankees have avoided him. With Clemens and roids, I put on my best Columbo jacket and wade into speculation. I follow the money. If a conversation with Jr got Bonds started, then I would guess with Clemens (like Manny) it becomes a case of "follow the money". My wild speculation guess is that Clemens started juicing at some point in 1996. He has been dealing with a lot of injury issues and hadn't dominated over the prior 4 years although he was a lot better than that 40-39 record that got thrown in his face. He got off to a lousy start in 1996 and pitched quite well in the second half but had zero defense behind him and had the misfortune of pitching when the team wouldn't score. Then the next day Tom Gordon with his 5.59 ERA would pitch and get all of the run support. Clemens' numbers didn't look spectacular but by the end of the year he was pitching rather well - and he had that 20K/0BB performance to verify it. I suspect that he probably had a conversation with teammate Jose Canseco and decided "to get healthy" quicker than would naturally occur. Again just speculation on my part. Same speculation that leads me to think that Manny started juicing in 2008 coming off an injury that reduced him from superman to merely good as I know that he was eying a 4 year $100 million extension that wasn't going to happen if he ht like he did in 2007. I think around the time he was dealt to LA he started juicing (geez, the Sox gave the Dodgers Manny, Adrian Gonzalez, and Mookie Betts! - and I thought the Yankees took all of the Red Sox' stars!). Manny almost hit .400 the rest of the season with LA. And I could be absolute totally 100% WRONG with my speculation and probably am. It's just what I think until we uncover evidence that suggests otherwise, which we may never know. I do know that Manny got busted twice after testing, which now that Cano got nabbed again, makes it harder for me to consider Manny on the ballot. I listed him and now seeing Cano, I think I should dump him off my unimportant ballot and stick Billy Wagner on instead. As far as Clemens and 2007, the Sox could have used him in the summer of that season. They did have a hole in the rotation. They had Beckett, Schilling, Daisuke, and Wakefield in the rotation, but reliever Julian Tavarez was in the #5 spot and they brought up Kason Gabbard who pitched well briefly and was traded to Texas for Eric Gagne. Buchholz came up in late August. I don't think Lester returned until later in the summer and it took him time to build up. Fortunately he was ready to step up in the World Series when Wakefield got hurt. That rotation was tenuous. Daisuke was exhausted by August and Schilling was on his last legs getting by on guile. Of course Clemens was no slam dunk either. He didn't set the world on fire with the Yankees either, but he was an upgrade on Tavarez. And if would have been nice to see Clemens get a Red Sox world series ring after McNamara prevented him from getting one in 1986, but there's no guarantee had Clemens started Game 4 that he would have been any better than Jon Lester was - Lester pitching 5.2 scoreless innings. The lasting memory of all that was Suzyn Waldman shouting out, "Roger is in George's box!" and Jon Sterling calming her down. The video of it is funny and cringeworthy.
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Post by ortiz34 on Nov 19, 2020 14:36:47 GMT -5
If I remember correctly the Sox did not want to give Beckett 21. They have locked up that number tight. No one talks about why Clemens took roids. We know Bonds took them after a conversation with Griffey, and how much better he could be with them. With Clemens, we can only guess that it was to revive his career. As for the Yankees, first time he was traded. As for 07, our staff was already loaded. Beckett, Schilling, Dice-K, Lester, Wakefield. The Yankees were still in the race for the division, and needed a starter. So they gave him stupid money for HALF a season. Now the Sox have welcomed him back with open arms, while the Yankees have avoided him. With Clemens and roids, I put on my best Columbo jacket and wade into speculation. I follow the money. If a conversation with Jr got Bonds started, then I would guess with Clemens (like Manny) it becomes a case of "follow the money". My wild speculation guess is that Clemens started juicing at some point in 1996. He has been dealing with a lot of injury issues and hadn't dominated over the prior 4 years although he was a lot better than that 40-39 record that got thrown in his face. He got off to a lousy start in 1996 and pitched quite well in the second half but had zero defense behind him and had the misfortune of pitching when the team wouldn't score. Then the next day Tom Gordon with his 5.59 ERA would pitch and get all of the run support. Clemens' numbers didn't look spectacular but by the end of the year he was pitching rather well - and he had that 20K/0BB performance to verify it. I suspect that he probably had a conversation with teammate Jose Canseco and decided "to get healthy" quicker than would naturally occur. Again just speculation on my part. Same speculation that leads me to think that Manny started juicing in 2008 coming off an injury that reduced him from superman to merely good as I know that he was eying a 4 year $100 million extension that wasn't going to happen if he ht like he did in 2007. I think around the time he was dealt to LA he started juicing (geez, the Sox gave the Dodgers Manny, Adrian Gonzalez, and Mookie Betts! - and I thought the Yankees took all of the Red Sox' stars!). Manny almost hit .400 the rest of the season with LA. And I could be absolute totally 100% WRONG with my speculation and probably am. It's just what I think until we uncover evidence that suggests otherwise, which we may never know. I do know that Manny got busted twice after testing, which now that Cano got nabbed again, makes it harder for me to consider Manny on the ballot. I listed him and now seeing Cano, I think I should dump him off my unimportant ballot and stick Billy Wagner on instead. As far as Clemens and 2007, the Sox could have used him in the summer of that season. They did have a hole in the rotation. They had Beckett, Schilling, Daisuke, and Wakefield in the rotation, but reliever Julian Tavarez was in the #5 spot and they brought up Kason Gabbard who pitched well briefly and was traded to Texas for Eric Gagne. Buchholz came up in late August. I don't think Lester returned until later in the summer and it took him time to build up. Fortunately he was ready to step up in the World Series when Wakefield got hurt. That rotation was tenuous. Daisuke was exhausted by August and Schilling was on his last legs getting by on guile. Of course Clemens was no slam dunk either. He didn't set the world on fire with the Yankees either, but he was an upgrade on Tavarez. And if would have been nice to see Clemens get a Red Sox world series ring after McNamara prevented him from getting one in 1986, but there's no guarantee had Clemens started Game 4 that he would have been any better than Jon Lester was - Lester pitching 5.2 scoreless innings. The lasting memory of all that was Suzyn Waldman shouting out, "Roger is in George's box!" and Jon Sterling calming her down. The video of it is funny and cringeworthy. Sure he could of been used. But the Yankees gave him 28 million reasons not to join the Sox. For half a season. Now a days thats David Price, Kershaw, Cole money. And he gets it for only half a season of work. George was desperate to keep the Sox from winning the East. It was a close race, and had Clemens joined the Sox it would have been the death blow for the Yankees.
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