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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 24, 2020 13:33:46 GMT -5
I would like to point out to some of you who are discussing the "jump" for players should not get after they turn 30. Here are a list of players who seemed to have that jump but have never been linked to steroids. 1. Dwight Evans 2. Paul Molitor (HOF) twice went to rehab for Cocaine use and could not stay healthy in his twenties. 3. Andre Dawson (HOF) 4. Curt Schilling 5. Jim Edmonds 6. Dazzy Vance (HOF) 7. Jose Bautista 8. Barry Larkin (HOF) Those are just the players that come to mind off of the top of my head. There are also those who had some very long continued success. 1. Cal Ripken 2. Rickey Henderson 3. David Ortiz 4. Ted Williams 5. George Brett 6. Nolan Ryan Not trying to knock any of these guys. I'm just trying to say, there are probably already players in the Hall who used steroids...and you can't use the "30-year" old plateau when you are talking about great players. Dazzy Vance and Ted Williams were not doing steroids But they were great even late into there careers. Having said that. I am a "no" on Manny Ramirez and Robinson Cano but a Yes on Bonds, Clemens, Palmeiro, Sosa, McGwire and Sheffield. That is sort of the point, though. The greatest players are the greatest because they succeed well past the point most begin to decline — likely a combination of good habits and luck. I mean, Ryan is a freak who proves the rule.... but I’d add there are some suspicious guys on your list: Edmonds, Bautista, and obviously Papi. Nonetheless, the point is on average guys decline with age. QED. The road to the HOF runs through putting that decline off. For the greats, they did it fair and square. For others, not as much. To the point of Cano someone made elsewhere, asking why do steroids after a huge contract: there is pride, ambition, desire to extend greatness. I remember a cyclist talking about juicing, and his point was that it was not just about being Lance.... it was about not getting blown out by the guy you used to beat. This is my biggest issue, the greats used performance enhancement crap also. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_baseball1961 Mantle is using Steroids and Amphetamines. Amphetamines use was big from after WW2 for decades in Baseball. Acting like this is one small group of players is dead wrong. Baseball just didn't care and we seem to only focus on the group of players when they started to care.
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Post by manfred on Nov 24, 2020 23:42:58 GMT -5
That is sort of the point, though. The greatest players are the greatest because they succeed well past the point most begin to decline — likely a combination of good habits and luck. I mean, Ryan is a freak who proves the rule.... but I’d add there are some suspicious guys on your list: Edmonds, Bautista, and obviously Papi. Nonetheless, the point is on average guys decline with age. QED. The road to the HOF runs through putting that decline off. For the greats, they did it fair and square. For others, not as much. To the point of Cano someone made elsewhere, asking why do steroids after a huge contract: there is pride, ambition, desire to extend greatness. I remember a cyclist talking about juicing, and his point was that it was not just about being Lance.... it was about not getting blown out by the guy you used to beat. This is my biggest issue, the greats used performance enhancement crap also. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_baseball1961 Mantle is using Steroids and Amphetamines. Amphetamines use was big from after WW2 for decades in Baseball. Acting like this is one small group of players is dead wrong. Baseball just didn't care and we seem to only focus on the group of players when they started to care. That may be true, but a) amphetamines don’t prolong your career; and b) Mantle is not the best example of a lengthy career. In the end, it is, of course, pointless to compare: those guys might have used drugs, but they also had few modern training techniques. Old argument, but what would Bob Feller, for example, look like today with better training, coaching etc?
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Nov 25, 2020 0:00:08 GMT -5
To echo most of the people in here, Schilling is a deplorable human being. Awful hateful views. But he's a hall of famer on the field. Zero question. If he had different views he probably gets in 4th ballot. Certainly before Mussina.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 25, 2020 14:40:37 GMT -5
This is my biggest issue, the greats used performance enhancement crap also. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_baseball1961 Mantle is using Steroids and Amphetamines. Amphetamines use was big from after WW2 for decades in Baseball. Acting like this is one small group of players is dead wrong. Baseball just didn't care and we seem to only focus on the group of players when they started to care. That may be true, but a) amphetamines don’t prolong your career; and b) Mantle is not the best example of a lengthy career. In the end, it is, of course, pointless to compare: those guys might have used drugs, but they also had few modern training techniques. Old argument, but what would Bob Feller, for example, look like today with better training, coaching etc? There are reports of steroids from the 1960s. Steroids can help you stay healthy over little things, they don't just prolong careers. Pedroia couldn't extended his career with Steroids for example. Nevermind everyone is different, the types they take, the amount, etc. For example not every player was like Barry Bonds where the change was crazy. Roger Clemens didn't add 40 pounds of muscle. I have no idea who Bob Feller is, yet he played against guys with the same coaching. The point is the drug issues in Baseball date back to at least after WW2. So you can't just say the modern guys had long careers because of steroids. Like Canseco said in his book, Steroids don't make you crazy better. His brother took them and he wasn't a great player. There is no a guy took them and hit 400 extra HRs, that's crazy.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 25, 2020 15:16:22 GMT -5
That may be true, but a) amphetamines don’t prolong your career; and b) Mantle is not the best example of a lengthy career. In the end, it is, of course, pointless to compare: those guys might have used drugs, but they also had few modern training techniques. Old argument, but what would Bob Feller, for example, look like today with better training, coaching etc? There are reports of steroids from the 1960s. Steroids can help you stay healthy over little things, they don't just prolong careers. Pedroia couldn't extended his career with Steroids for example. Nevermind everyone is different, the types they take, the amount, etc. For example not every player was like Barry Bonds where the change was crazy. Roger Clemens didn't add 40 pounds of muscle. I have no idea who Bob Feller is, yet he played against guys with the same coaching. The point is the drug issues in Baseball date back to at least after WW2. So you can't just say the modern guys had long careers because of steroids. Like Canseco said in his book, Steroids don't make you crazy better. His brother took them and he wasn't a great player. There is no a guy took them and hit 400 extra HRs, that's crazy. I agree with your overall premise. Steroids won't take a guy who can't really play baseball and turn him into a star. I think what they do is help players heal faster or reduce fatigue. I mean in this way - in 1998 when the HR chase was on, Ken Griffey Jr was keeping pace with Sosa and McGwire and then he faded. I think he simply tired as the season went along, but with McGwire and Sosa on the stuff they were on, they were always in peak condition and there was none of that fatigue and they were able to keep up that crazy HR pace. I have to ask - you have no idea who Bob Feller was? He was one of the premier power pitchers of his generation and his career was interrupted by WWII. He was a proud WWII vet. I remember meeting him around 1983 or so when I was a kid at Beehive field where the New Britain Red Sox played (for all I know a young Roger Clemens could have pitched that night), and I got his autograph and we got some sort of thing with a photo of his navy ship that he served on and he circled a spot on it - he must have been on that particular part of the ship. He could throw very hard - probably about 98 which was probably as fast as they threw back then. He was a key part of the 1948 Cleveland Indians championship team, pitched a no-hitter on Opening Day 8 earlier in his career, and was still effective with Cleveland when they won 111 game in 1954. He was teammates with Satchel Page and Larry Doby when the Indians became the first AL team to integrate that year and their willingness to do so was the difference in a pennant race that finished tied after the season and resulted in a 1 game playoff in which Cleveland beat up the Red Sox to win the pennant and deprive Boston of an all-Boston World Series, as the Indians went on to beat the Boston Braves in the World Series, their last Championship to date.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 25, 2020 15:55:28 GMT -5
There are reports of steroids from the 1960s. Steroids can help you stay healthy over little things, they don't just prolong careers. Pedroia couldn't extended his career with Steroids for example. Nevermind everyone is different, the types they take, the amount, etc. For example not every player was like Barry Bonds where the change was crazy. Roger Clemens didn't add 40 pounds of muscle. I have no idea who Bob Feller is, yet he played against guys with the same coaching. The point is the drug issues in Baseball date back to at least after WW2. So you can't just say the modern guys had long careers because of steroids. Like Canseco said in his book, Steroids don't make you crazy better. His brother took them and he wasn't a great player. There is no a guy took them and hit 400 extra HRs, that's crazy. I agree with your overall premise. Steroids won't take a guy who can't really play baseball and turn him into a star. I think what they do is help players heal faster or reduce fatigue. I mean in this way - in 1998 when the HR chase was on, Ken Griffey Jr was keeping pace with Sosa and McGwire and then he faded. I think he simply tired as the season went along, but with McGwire and Sosa on the stuff they were on, they were always in peak condition and there was none of that fatigue and they were able to keep up that crazy HR pace. I have to ask - you have no idea who Bob Feller was? He was one of the premier power pitchers of his generation and his career was interrupted by WWII. He was a proud WWII vet. I remember meeting him around 1983 or so when I was a kid at Beehive field where the New Britain Red Sox played (for all I know a young Roger Clemens could have pitched that night), and I got his autograph and we got some sort of thing with a photo of his navy ship that he served on and he circled a spot on it - he must have been on that particular part of the ship. He could throw very hard - probably about 98 which was probably as fast as they threw back then. He was a key part of the 1948 Cleveland Indians championship team, pitched a no-hitter on Opening Day 8 earlier in his career, and was still effective with Cleveland when they won 111 game in 1954. He was teammates with Satchel Page and Larry Doby when the Indians became the first AL team to integrate that year and their willingness to do so was the difference in a pennant race that finished tied after the season and resulted in a 1 game playoff in which Cleveland beat up the Red Sox to win the pennant and deprive Boston of an all-Boston World Series, as the Indians went on to beat the Boston Braves in the World Series, their last Championship to date. I agree with that, I've been on steroids for long periods due to my health. Not HGH, yet they make your whole body feel good. I can go from not being able to walk to running in a few weeks. They take away the pain and joint aches. Which as you get older is a big advantage. Yet they also have nasty side effects, they aren't joking when they say that. I'm younger in 1983 I was one years old. My first Baseball game was early 90s with Roger Clemens pitcher. I didn't get really into it till early 2000s, around 2010 I became a junkie. I really think this is the first Time I've heard his name, yet maybe I just don't remember because I didn't know who he was.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 25, 2020 16:06:36 GMT -5
I agree with your overall premise. Steroids won't take a guy who can't really play baseball and turn him into a star. I think what they do is help players heal faster or reduce fatigue. I mean in this way - in 1998 when the HR chase was on, Ken Griffey Jr was keeping pace with Sosa and McGwire and then he faded. I think he simply tired as the season went along, but with McGwire and Sosa on the stuff they were on, they were always in peak condition and there was none of that fatigue and they were able to keep up that crazy HR pace. I have to ask - you have no idea who Bob Feller was? He was one of the premier power pitchers of his generation and his career was interrupted by WWII. He was a proud WWII vet. I remember meeting him around 1983 or so when I was a kid at Beehive field where the New Britain Red Sox played (for all I know a young Roger Clemens could have pitched that night), and I got his autograph and we got some sort of thing with a photo of his navy ship that he served on and he circled a spot on it - he must have been on that particular part of the ship. He could throw very hard - probably about 98 which was probably as fast as they threw back then. He was a key part of the 1948 Cleveland Indians championship team, pitched a no-hitter on Opening Day 8 earlier in his career, and was still effective with Cleveland when they won 111 game in 1954. He was teammates with Satchel Page and Larry Doby when the Indians became the first AL team to integrate that year and their willingness to do so was the difference in a pennant race that finished tied after the season and resulted in a 1 game playoff in which Cleveland beat up the Red Sox to win the pennant and deprive Boston of an all-Boston World Series, as the Indians went on to beat the Boston Braves in the World Series, their last Championship to date. I agree with that, I've been on steroids for long periods due to my health. Not HGH, yet they make your whole body feel good. I can go from not being able to walk to running in a few weeks. They take away the pain and joint aches. Which as you get older is a big advantage. Yet they also have nasty side effects, they aren't joking when they say that. I'm younger in 1983 I was one years old. My first Baseball game was early 90s with Roger Clemens pitcher. I didn't get really into it till early 2000s, around 2010 I became a junkie. I really think this is the first Time I've heard his name, yet maybe I just don't remember because I didn't know who he was. For a "newbie" you sure know your stuff! As you accumulate more years in your memory bank, I think the history of the game starts to play up and it can make you wonder what happened prior to your frame of reference. I'll never forget - my grandfather at some point in the 1980s before he passed away got me a 3rd edition of the MacMillan baseball encyclopedia - which only went through 1975 - and was riddled with errors (like Fred Clarke batting .986 in 1899!), and with Baseballreference.com is totally obsolete, but it got me into researching the Red Sox prior to my frame of reference which was 1980 and from there my interest morphed into learning the history of other franchises and learning of the players comprising their teams (baseball card collection helped that as well - like to match a face with the stats). Enjoy the history as you pile up experience watching the game. Like I said, I'm always impressed by your knowledge.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Nov 25, 2020 23:42:47 GMT -5
It's never too early to start looking at the amazing HOF tracking of Ryan Thibs: www.bbhoftracker.com/
Schilling's off to a slow start with only 6 of 10 votes. Keep in mind that guys perform better on the disclosed ballots than on the final tally, which includes all ballots. He'll have to get over 80 percent on the disclosed ballots to stay above 75 percent once all the private ones are tallied. I wonder if he'll say the election was rigged!
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 14,029
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Post by cdj on Nov 26, 2020 0:13:20 GMT -5
He’s an absolute lunatic but he deserves to be in the HOF
When’s big cat Lance Berkman getting in? One of the best switch hitters ever
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Post by costpet on Nov 26, 2020 7:18:50 GMT -5
As far as Clemens is concerned, he didn't start taking steroids until he moved to Toronto, then on the the MFY's. So, you have to ask yourself, was he a HOFer before he went to Toronto and introduced to Canseco? If so, then he deserves to get in. If not, then the steroids made him great.
Bob Feller pitched for the Cleveland Indians while he was still in high school! He was 17 at the time. He would go to school, then someone would give him a ride to the ballpark. Nobody had ever seen a fastball like his. No idea how fast he was, but even Ted had some trouble hitting him.
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,926
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Post by ericmvan on Nov 26, 2020 20:12:09 GMT -5
As far as Clemens is concerned, he didn't start taking steroids until he moved to Toronto, then on the the MFY's. So, you have to ask yourself, was he a HOFer before he went to Toronto and introduced to Canseco? If so, then he deserves to get in. If not, then the steroids made him great. Bob Feller pitched for the Cleveland Indians while he was still in high school! He was 17 at the time. He would go to school, then someone would give him a ride to the ballpark. Nobody had ever seen a fastball like his. No idea how fast he was, but even Ted had some trouble hitting him. Folks should check out the excellent documentary Fastball. You can watch it on Kanopy, if you have that through your library, or for free on Tubi.
It's an part a general look at the pitch, but it's also (or largely) the last word on the history of very hard-throwing pitchers, and the attempts to figure out how hard they threw. "Rapid Robert" Feller was one of of the first guys that they tried to put a mph stamp on. He was essentially the Ryan of his day, a guy just way faster than anyone else, the hardest thrower in history to that point.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Nov 26, 2020 20:21:41 GMT -5
As far as Clemens is concerned, he didn't start taking steroids until he moved to Toronto, then on the the MFY's. So, you have to ask yourself, was he a HOFer before he went to Toronto and introduced to Canseco? If so, then he deserves to get in. If not, then the steroids made him great. Bob Feller pitched for the Cleveland Indians while he was still in high school! He was 17 at the time. He would go to school, then someone would give him a ride to the ballpark. Nobody had ever seen a fastball like his. No idea how fast he was, but even Ted had some trouble hitting him. Folks should check out the excellent documentary Fastball. You can watch it on Kanopy, if you have that through your library, or for free on Tubi. It's an part a general look at the pitch, but it's also (or largely) the last word on the history of very hard-throwing pitchers, and the attempts to figure out how hard they threw. "Rapid Robert" Feller was one of of the first guys that they tried to put a mph stamp on. He was essentially the Ryan of his day, a guy just way faster than anyone else, the hardest thrower in history to that point.
I believe Walter Johnson is credited by some historians as being the fastest relative to his peers. Feller was a beast though.
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 2,771
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Post by mobaz on Nov 27, 2020 8:15:23 GMT -5
theathletic.com/2202108/2020/11/27/the-outsiders-hall-of-fame-top-100Joe Pos is going through the top 100 players not in the Hall of Fame. Looks like it will be an ongoing series. In this intro he argues that, say, Mark Buehrle, often thought as a "hall of very good" guy, is better than 100 current Hall of Famers. So let's talk about all the guys not in that are better than the guys that are in.
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Post by costpet on Nov 27, 2020 8:27:00 GMT -5
Ted Williams said that Bob Feller was the best pitcher he ever faced. However, Ted hit .347 against him with a 1.144 OPS and 9 home runs in 124 AB. WWII took 4 years off their meetings.
I'm glad I'm old enough to say I saw Ted in person. They say the consession stands were empty when Ted was due up.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 27, 2020 8:50:59 GMT -5
Ted Williams said that Bob Feller was the best pitcher he ever faced. However, Ted hit .347 against him with a 1.144 OPS and 9 home runs in 124 AB. WWII took 4 years off their meetings. I'm glad I'm old enough to say I saw Ted in person. They say the consession stands were empty when Ted was due up. So in other words, Ted "struggled" (by Ted's lofty standards) against him.
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Post by costpet on Nov 27, 2020 10:21:05 GMT -5
Ted loved hitting fastballs and Feller had a great one. So, Ted just sat on it.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Nov 27, 2020 16:52:18 GMT -5
Ted Williams said that Bob Feller was the best pitcher he ever faced. However, Ted hit .347 against him with a 1.144 OPS and 9 home runs in 124 AB. WWII took 4 years off their meetings. I'm glad I'm old enough to say I saw Ted in person. They say the consession stands were empty when Ted was due up. So in other words, Ted "struggled" (by Ted's lofty standards) against him.Yes. People didn’t leave their seats when he was coming up. I went to Fenway from the late 40’s thru his retirement. I don’t remember much from the 40’s but was locked in during the 50’s and remember the lines were never long at concessions anyways as the stands were never, ever near full. This despite some legendary players. Then again, the players were always available to sign, laugh, joke. Ted included. And Feller’s name was legendary even in Boston. Even for kids his baseball card was worth a lot.
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Post by foreverred9 on Nov 27, 2020 21:37:08 GMT -5
Ted loved hitting fastballs and Feller had a great one. So, Ted just sat on it. I feel like I spent more time reading up on Feller than I had at any point before, so thanks to all for the references. Feller had an interesting career trajectory. Absolutely filthy through the 1940s, then faded for his final years but remained consistently solid for a very long time. Reminds me of Pedro's career, if Pedro had kept going for another couple years. So to put it in perspective, imagine if Pedro had to miss 3-4 years during his Red Sox stretch. That's basically what happened to Feller. If he played those years he likely would have 3,500 Ks and 350 wins (maybe slightly more). I wonder how much of Ted's success against him came in the 1949-1956 window as opposed to the 1938-1948 window.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Nov 27, 2020 22:32:09 GMT -5
Feller also had several notable pitchers as teammates. Bob Lemon, Early Wynn, Hoyt Wilhelm, Herb Score. Indians rotation was always tough in that era.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 28, 2020 0:25:05 GMT -5
Feller also had several notable pitchers as teammates. Bob Lemon, Early Wynn, Hoyt Wilhelm, Herb Score. Indians rotation was always tough iin that era. I had forgotten that Hoyt Wilhelm had pitched for the Indians, but technically he and Feller were never teammates as Feller retired in 1956 amd Wilhelm didn't join Cleveland until a year later. The Indians won the Series in 1948 but you can make a clear argument for them having a better team in 1954 when the Yankees were finally dethroned for a year despite winning more games that year than their five straight championship years from 1949 - 1953. But despite winning 103 games they were no match for the Indians who went 111-43 that year. That's .721 baseball. Only the 2001 Mariners (116-46 .716) and 1998 Yankees (104-48 .704) come close in recent times. Can't count the 2020 Dodgers .717 after just 60 games. Feller wasn't as dominant that point, but was highly effective in a rotation that had HOFer Early Wynn and Bob Lemon along with solid pitchers like Mike Garcia and Art Houtemann. Phils, now that I think about it, you probably meant HOFer Hal Newhouser, rather than Hoyt Wilhelm. Newhouser was pitching out of the pen for the Indians that season. Yet they got swept by the NY Giants in the Series with everybody remembering Wilie Mays' amazing catch in the Polo Grounds off of Vic Wertz. Then the Indians wandered in the dessert for about 40 years. It's easy to forget now, but once upon a time the idea of the Indians even making the post-season seemed crazy. That's why Major League picked the Indians as their subject. Since then the Indians have been competitive to good, but have have lost the series 3 times and had it yanked away from them in two of those occasions.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Nov 28, 2020 2:19:29 GMT -5
I had forgotten about Newhouser, another good one during the era. I didn't check for overlaps, just remembered a lot of great starters, even before Tiant.
I don't know if I was actually watching the game or just saw replays but I distinctly remember Gil McDougal lining a ball off Herb Score's head. Fantastic pitcher, he was never the same afterwards. Maybe the earliest major sports injury I can remember.
ADD: It's strange that I can only remember a few Indians position players off the top of my head without looking. Larry Doby, Vic Power then later Rocky Colavito.
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Post by ortiz34 on Nov 28, 2020 13:47:52 GMT -5
Looking at the ballot results right now, even though its still early, it seems like no one is getting in this year Curt should be in this year. He is a hall of famer, even if you don't like him personally.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Nov 28, 2020 14:32:56 GMT -5
Looking at the ballot results right now, even though its still early, it seems like no one is getting in this year Curt should be in this year. He is a hall of famer, even if you don't like him personally. What? There are 15 ballots known. Way too early to say it looks like anything.
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Post by ortiz34 on Nov 28, 2020 16:49:17 GMT -5
Looking at the ballot results right now, even though its still early, it seems like no one is getting in this year Curt should be in this year. He is a hall of famer, even if you don't like him personally. What? There are 15 ballots known. Way too early to say it looks like anything. 10 out 15 for Bonds, Clemens, and Schilling. Not close to being done, but they also need to pick up some votes. Not a good start.
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Post by manfred on Dec 7, 2020 21:51:02 GMT -5
Dick Allen doesn’t have many of the classic numbers for HOF, but he is sort of Rice-y. Awesome, then didn’t get to pad with slow decline. Just... poof. Even as a small Hall guy, I can see the case. Can’t say I’m totally on board, but.... maybe.
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