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Red Sox reportedly shopping Benintendi
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 13, 2021 10:42:33 GMT -5
I think you might have a pretty unreasonable standard for "bust."
For reference: Benintendi is 13th all-time among 1-7 picks in career bWAR, and is second only to Bregman among 2015 first-rounders.
If you re-do that draft, he probably still goes roughly 7th (maybe a pick or two in either direction) and he's in the mix for pick 4. It's definitely Bregman 1, then Buehler and Paddack (and Paddack went in the 8th, mind you). After that it's guys like Benintendi, Swanson, Soroka, Grisham, Hayes, Tucker, De Jong, Fletcher, Mountcastle. At the very least, he's inarguably a top 15 pick.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 13, 2021 10:43:40 GMT -5
I worry more about how bad he was in 2019 than he was in 2020, but with that being said thats two straight seasons where he was pretty bad. Hes a bust because he was the #7 pick in the draft as well as the #1 prospect in all of baseball and now he cant hit, has no pop or speed, and is an average outfielder who can only play LF because of his arm. Im not analytical guy but from what ive read his analytics are really alarming. Most players drafted even in the first round never make a significant impact in the majors or even make it. He was a key member of the 2018 world series sox. To call him a bust seems very unfair. Agreed. I might call him a mild disappointment but he was no bust. Want to see a bust? Look up Al Chambers. I believe he was a first pick in the draft one year who never even made the majors. Benintendi wasn't the second coming of a young Fred Lynn as hoped for but like you said he was a key part of a Championship Red Sox team, one that was the best in the history of the franchise. And no matter what happens, he was a part of the greatest defensive Red Sox outfield unit(or at least since the days of Lewis/Speaker/Hooper), and despite having JBJ and Betts to his left, and all of the most amazing catches those two made, it will be Benintendi, who had perhaps the most important defensive play in Red Sox history (only Dwight Evans' Game 6, 1975 grab might rank higher). You can't take that away from him. If he didn't catch that ball, they lose that game and who knows what happens? So no, Benintendi is no bust, not at all, not even close. Just a player who wasn't as great as hoped for. Of course, if he does blossom as we hoped for in another uniform, we might be kicking ourselves. With Benintendi, it's flip a coin either way. He could be on the downward trend, or an adjustment here or there, and he's back to the smooth swinging line drive machine who could hit near .300, whack 20 something HRs and get on base at a good clip. If the Red Sox aren't getting really good quality for Benny, then they're making a mistake.
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Post by soxaddict on Jan 13, 2021 10:47:51 GMT -5
Hypothetically, say the Sox sign JTR and already have a deal in place with Philly based on that signing, for something like Vazquez and Benintendi for Mick Abel, Francisco Morales and Simon Muzzoitti. It looks like an overpay for Philly, but it would be a way to get value for losing the 2nd round pick to Philly for the JRT signing.
Could be a creative way to sign a guy like JTR and theoretically not lose the value of the 2nd round pick.
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Post by rminns10 on Jan 13, 2021 10:57:15 GMT -5
Im talking current player, not 2018. 2018 Benni was awesome and was on track to be an all star. Since then he is pretty bad(maybe bust isnt the word because of his early success).
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Post by incandenza on Jan 13, 2021 11:23:21 GMT -5
Im talking current player, not 2018. 2018 Benni was awesome and was on track to be an all star. Since then he is pretty bad(maybe bust isnt the word because of his early success). In his worst season, other than 2020, he was a league average player at age 25.
I feel like there's been a consistent trend of Benintendi disappointment inflation: he wasn't as good as we thought he might be-->he's not that great-->he's pretty bad-->he's a bust. If you forget the narrative, at least some teams ought to see him as a league-average player with upside, relatively cheap, and under team control for two years. That should fetch a return.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Jan 13, 2021 12:27:52 GMT -5
Calling Beni a bust a bit harsh. Currently, his is a depreciating asset. That is why he is being shopped or asked about.
As has been said, Sox wont give him away. Other teams have to decide if he will be a GUY again. that is the freight they will be paying.
His a Sox draft pick who helped us immensely in 2018, hoping the best for him wherever he lands (or stays)
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,903
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Post by nomar on Jan 13, 2021 12:31:37 GMT -5
When I think of a bust for our org I think of someone like Cecchini or maybe WMB (although I think the broken wrist derailed his career). But Benintendi is not one. I know we want all of our top prospects to be superstars but falling short of that doesn’t make them a bust.
If I’m Benintendi I probably want out too. This coaching staff has failed to help him correct any of his issues over the last couple of years.
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Post by funkybuddha on Jan 13, 2021 12:40:38 GMT -5
Seems like 2021 team could be competitive with better pitching, better 2B play and rebounds by Benny and JD. So why trade Benny for prospects? Because he knows Benny is just suddenly done? At 26. That the injuries were not the reason for the poor performance. He in one year became very un-athletic and slow. He can't hit at all now. Doesn't make sense to me.
Who knows if Moniac is even a real possibility here? If he is, how is he any better than Duran? Not a ton of confidence in how Bloom has gone about this thing so far. Just my opinion, doesn't amount to anything I know but... Just seems like he is getting "his type players". Like we had to get rid of Holt for Perazza. Perazza was absolutely horrible. Holt is better and he really mattered in the locker room too. The relief pitching he brought in was a total failure.
The offseason is still in progress so who knows.....
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 13, 2021 12:50:37 GMT -5
When I think of a bust for our org I think of someone like Cecchini or maybe WMB (although I think the broken wrist derailed his career). But Benintendi is not one. I know we want all of our top prospects to be superstars but falling short of that doesn’t make them a bust. If I’m Benintendi I probably want out too. This coaching staff has failed to help him correct any of his issues over the last couple of years. Hate to say it, but Trey Ball. He's hardly the only though. The majority bust and a lot fall short of hopes.
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,989
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Post by jimoh on Jan 13, 2021 12:51:17 GMT -5
Trying to connect some dots and maybe this is out of left field, but once the Cardinals popped up in McCadam's report, I immediately thought of Matthew Liberatore who Bloom had in his system in Tampa Bay. That and along with a Harrison Bader in a package, is interesting. Maybe you have to include Vazquez or maybe you agree to take most of Carlos Martinez's contract. There's ways of getting to that point of getting a Liberatore. I don't think Benintendi alone gets you to that point. that would be interesting taking on Carlos martinez contract because he was originally signed by the Sox out of The Dominican Republic quite a few years ago, but the contract was voided because he used the wrong name and his age was suspect to questiion. the Sox had to give him up and i assume the Cardinals stepped in at some time to sign him. I think the name he signed with the Sox was Matias. mlb.con lists Mickey Moniak as the Phillies' #12 propsect. Just ahead of him at #1! is Simon Muzziotti, also signed by the Sox and played briefly at age 17 but also had his contract voided. www.cbssports.com/fantasy/baseball/news/phillies-simon-muzziotti-agrees-to-terms/www.overthemonster.com/2016/7/1/12080618/red-sox-banned-from-international-signing-period-have-five-contracts
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Jan 13, 2021 13:01:23 GMT -5
Benintendi OPS:
2016 - .835 2017 - .775 2018 - .830 2019 - .774 Benintendi may have not lived up to the hype some fans expect, but even in 2019, he was absolutely not a bust!
A lot of the top MLB player had a horrible 2020! Stopping and starting spring training, not enough time to prep for the year, injures, dealing with family and pandemic situations all may have contributed to a terrible 2020 for many all-stars.
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Jan 13, 2021 13:18:33 GMT -5
Benintendi OPS: 2016 - .835 2017 - .775 2018 - .830 2019 - .774 Benintendi may have not lived up to the hype some fans expect, but even in 2019, he was absolutely not a bust! A lot of the top MLB player had a horrible 2020! Stopping and starting spring training, not enough time to prep for the year, injures, dealing with family and pandemic situations all may have contributed to a terrible 2020 for many all-stars. Look at Benintendi’s numbers from 2019. There is a little loss of memory on some of the people posting. AB - 541 R - 72 H - 144 2B - 40 (pretty high # for someone who’s a bust) 3B - 5 HR - 13 RBI - 68 SB - 10 BA - .266 (low for someone with high expectations, but if it was Bradley with a .266 we would all be thrilled) OBP - .343 (one of the better OBP in the AL) SLG - .431 (certainly not horrible) OPS - .774 (not elite, but not bad) Yes, 2020 was beyond horrible, but was too and many others
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Post by tyler3 on Jan 13, 2021 14:04:50 GMT -5
Wasn’t the issue with 2019 was that his second half was super bad? Then he followed it up with crappy small sample in 2020
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,903
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Post by nomar on Jan 13, 2021 14:11:56 GMT -5
When I think of a bust for our org I think of someone like Cecchini or maybe WMB (although I think the broken wrist derailed his career). But Benintendi is not one. I know we want all of our top prospects to be superstars but falling short of that doesn’t make them a bust. If I’m Benintendi I probably want out too. This coaching staff has failed to help him correct any of his issues over the last couple of years. Hate to say it, but Trey Ball. He's hardly the only though. The majority bust and a lot fall short of hopes. I can barely call Ball a bust. Take a raw HS pitcher with the 7th pick and that’s the exact type of downside you’re accepting. Don’t want to go down the rabbit hole of looking at our early picks in those few years. We had a stretch up until Benintendi (edit: no I actually liked Chavis pick) where every first round pick was so deflating/uninspiring. Johnson, Marrero, Ball yuck. I think in my case what it boils down to is that I hate “high floor” first rounders because nobody really has a high floor in an MLB draft.
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Jan 13, 2021 14:27:30 GMT -5
Wasn’t the issue with 2019 was that his second half was super bad? Then he followed it up with crappy small sample in 2020 A “super bad” second half does not mean he has completely lost it, and 2020 was 39 at bats (definitely a small sample size).
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Post by soxinjersey on Jan 13, 2021 14:47:22 GMT -5
Trying to connect some dots and maybe this is out of left field, but once the Cardinals popped up in McCadam's report, I immediately thought of Matthew Liberatore who Bloom had in his system in Tampa Bay. That and along with a Harrison Bader in a package, is interesting. Maybe you have to include Vazquez or maybe you agree to take most of Carlos Martinez's contract. There's ways of getting to that point of getting a Liberatore. I don't think Benintendi alone gets you to that point. I never thought I would be in favor of trading Benintendi, but I can imagine scenarios that would make the Sox a better team. I don't know other teams well enough to offer many trade possibilities, but here's another one: Cleveland is always looking for outfielders, and they have depth in areas of need for the Red Sox -- pitching and SS. How about Benni for a starter like Aaron Civale (a 4-5) plus one of their good SS prospects like Brayan Rocchio or Gabriel Arias? At the same time, the Red Sox should then re-sign JBJ. I would expect Benni to out-hit JBJ, but JBJ would immediately make the outfield stronger defensively and more flexible while at the same time retaining a significant part of the 2018 core (which is important to me). The cost (JBJ - Benni + Civale)? 5-6m? Now you would only need to buy one starter: Corey Kluber (12m?)! and a good reliever (7-8m?), all for 25-30m, to take care of the pitching needs. This would leave enough for Mitch and maybe for a utility man like Kiké Hernandez while remaining under the luxury tax (and it's not sure that's even an issue). I like this team. I'm not sure how Cleveland would see this trade, but I think they have the depth to make it.
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Post by Guidas on Jan 13, 2021 15:12:54 GMT -5
The irony here is unbelievably sharp as Benintendi was the player Boston refused to trade straight-up for Yellich when Miami had their fire sale. Now people are hoping with a B-level prospect who has some best-case, defy the odds projectable ceiling.
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Post by RedSoxStats on Jan 13, 2021 16:51:36 GMT -5
The irony here is unbelievably sharp as Benintendi was the player Boston refused to trade straight-up for Yellich when Miami had their fire sale. Now people are hoping with a B-level prospect who has some best-case, defy the odds projectable ceiling. What's the source on that? Just searched and couldn't find anything.
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Post by freddysthefuture2003 on Jan 13, 2021 16:55:35 GMT -5
Now would be the perfect time to trade Benintendi or do anything that may be unpopular with fans. Between the NBA and the impeachment, it could take days before anyone notices
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,989
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Post by jimoh on Jan 13, 2021 19:58:33 GMT -5
A Pirates podcast says that if Pirates and Cherington get involved one piece they could offer, because they can replace him easily, is 29YO LHH 2b (and occasional OF) Adam Frazier, lifetime 336/413 = .749, weaker in 2020, but right about those numbers in 2019. Lifetime splits .774/.650 OPS, 2019 .781/.671. Said to play very good defense; 2020 GG finalist. 2nd year arb eligible. Made $2.8M in 2020.
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Post by electricityverdugo99 on Jan 13, 2021 21:45:12 GMT -5
Bloom really knows how to grind out trades. Took all off-season to do the Mookie trade and another week after that when Brusdar Graterol failed his physical. Not complaining, actually a good thing. Take the best offer on the table.
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Post by Guidas on Jan 14, 2021 9:38:33 GMT -5
The irony here is unbelievably sharp as Benintendi was the player Boston refused to trade straight-up for Yellich when Miami had their fire sale. Now people are hoping with a B-level prospect who has some best-case, defy the odds projectable ceiling. What's the source on that? Just searched and couldn't find anything. I no longer have the link, but it was rumored at the time pretty widely. I recall Dombrowski saying something about Benintendi being a big part of the team’s future.
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Post by electricityverdugo99 on Jan 14, 2021 10:04:47 GMT -5
I understand not wanting to trade him at a low point but Benni might also be a bust, so its a bust for bust trade. Benni was a high pick and performed well for most of two MLB years. He finished second in Rookie of the Year voting. During his first season some even speculated that he might someday win a batting title...so good was his swing, strike zone judgment etc. He was a good fielder with a decent arm. He's 26....not 36. It's far from the norm for such a guy to suddenly lose it (Ok, yup, Stapleton and Nava). Some clubs will reasonably be induced to 'buy on the dip' of just a 2 month performance drop 2019-2020. Still, the prospect of becoming good again and at low salary will be enough that we should get a pretty fair return...or else we keep him. Otherwise, he is the type of guy the Sox might have picked up last year. But perhaps there are other factors warranting his departure. Yeah Benny was worth the pick. Not a bust. The guy taken after him in Carson Fulmer was/is a bust. Thank God the Sox picked 7th. Fenway Park is just a terrible fit for Benintendi. If he played on the Astros, or dare I say the Yankees, he'd look a lot better with most of his power being in RF.
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Post by tyler3 on Jan 14, 2021 10:10:10 GMT -5
MLB.com had a round table from different journalist that covered different possible teams. Top three teams turned out to be astros, cardinals, and phillies. Astros are interesting because they are potentially losing some outfielders and believe they still have a year or 2 before they have to blow it up and new GM is less attached to prospects he didn’t draft. Phillies are interesting because of dealing Dave, also not his draftees, and you have to wonder, is Dave who was obviously brought in to produce a winner in the next couple years gonna be a guy that attaches as much value to say prospects who are 3 to 4 years away.
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Post by tyler3 on Jan 14, 2021 10:21:47 GMT -5
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