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Hall of Fame 2022 - David Ortiz Elected
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Post by incandenza on Nov 22, 2021 15:34:41 GMT -5
'Tis the season. Fangraphs has a write-up. Who I'd vote for Abreu Bonds Clemens Jones Ortiz Ramirez Rodriguez Rolen Sheffield Who I think will get in
No one
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 22, 2021 16:47:30 GMT -5
My ballot would be:
Barry Bonds (don't like voting for steroid guys but he was clearly a HOFer before them)
Roger Clemens (Same as Bonds - 1st time I'd vote for either Clemens or Bonds)
Todd Helton (put up HOF numbers with help from Coors field of course)
Andruw Jones (could have been Griffey Jr, but still had enough of a career)
Jeff Kent (rare 2b with big offensive numbers)
David Ortiz (can't wait for his HOF speech)
Scott Rolen (gold glove 3b, excellent hitter)
Curt Schilling (holding my nose, but his career merits enshrinement)
Gary Sheffield (kind of the Dick Allen of his generation in some ways, scary at the plate)
Billy Wagner (best reliever not named Rivera or Hoffman from that era)
I don't think any of these guys get in either, although Ortiz could squeak in. Although I think 2023 is more likely. Schilling, Clemens, and Bonds will fall short, within 15%.
I'm unable to vote for Manny or A-Rod given that they were cheating when there were clear rules against it, but then again I never thought I'd vote for Clemens or Bonds.
Abreu is somebody I need more time to consider strongly. Maybe even Teixeira.
I'm curious about the Dec 5th balloting.
I'm hoping for Dick Allen, Jim Kaat, Gil Hodges, and Tony Oliva to be inducted.
And I'm curious about the other ballot. I'm certainly no expert on that ballot. I strongly hope Buck O'Neil finally gets the enshrinement he deserves (just wish it had come when he was alive!). John Donaldson had impressive numbers, and I'm sure there are many others that are worthy as well.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835 
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Post by TearsIn04 on Nov 23, 2021 18:40:21 GMT -5
A lot of tough calls for me on that ballot. A case can be made for Helton, Kent and Jones. I find them each to be a little short. But I wouldn't object to any of them, particularly Kent and Helton (133 OPS-plus and 61.8 WAR put to rest the notion that he thrived just because of Coors.)
I'd go with Rolen and his 70 b-Ref WAR and Ortiz. My guess is that Ortiz comes up short this year.
Schilling? Strictly on his pitching, he's an easy HOFer and should have been in on his first try. Some people take issue with voters who refuse to support him based on character. I don't. The HOF voting rules make it clear that voters can consider character, so I can't blame someone who chooses to do that.
My feeling prior to Jan. 6 was that while I wouldn't withhold a vote for him on character issues, I understood those who did. His support of the riot was the proverbial final straw for me. I wouldn't vote for him now. YMMV.
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Post by voiceofreason on Nov 23, 2021 18:57:46 GMT -5
A lot of tough calls for me on that ballot. A case can be made for Helton, Kent and Jones. I find them each to be a little short. But I wouldn't object to any of them, particularly Kent and Helton (133 OPS-plus and 61.8 WAR put to rest the notion that he thrived just because of Coors.) I'd go with Rolen and his 70 b-Ref WAR and Ortiz. My guess is that Ortiz comes up short this year. Schilling? Strictly on his pitching, he's an easy HOFer and should have been in on his first try. Some people take issue with voters who refuse to support him based on character. I don't. The HOF voting rules make it clear that voters can consider character, so I can't blame someone who chooses to do that. My feeling prior to Jan. 6 was that while I wouldn't withhold a vote for him on character issues, I understood those who did. His support of the riot was the proverbial final straw for me. I wouldn't vote for him now. YMMV. Based on pitching alone Schilling has always been on the cusp. It is more about regular season vs post season with him. If you want to weight post season higher then he is in, if not he is marginal. Although I despise his politics I will not hold that against him. If he deserves to be in based on what he did on the mound then he should be in, fact is that can be argued. Beyond his politics I think he was just generally disliked based on his personality. |
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Post by trajanacc on Nov 23, 2021 19:05:23 GMT -5
It’s pretty lame to bar someone from the HOF because you don’t like them or disagree with their politics. Probably a big reason many of us love sports is because it’s usually a break from politics. His achievements are what they are. If he had committed a serious crime that’s another thing.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Nov 23, 2021 19:12:49 GMT -5
A lot of tough calls for me on that ballot. A case can be made for Helton, Kent and Jones. I find them each to be a little short. But I wouldn't object to any of them, particularly Kent and Helton (133 OPS-plus and 61.8 WAR put to rest the notion that he thrived just because of Coors.) I'd go with Rolen and his 70 b-Ref WAR and Ortiz. My guess is that Ortiz comes up short this year. Schilling? Strictly on his pitching, he's an easy HOFer and should have been in on his first try. Some people take issue with voters who refuse to support him based on character. I don't. The HOF voting rules make it clear that voters can consider character, so I can't blame someone who chooses to do that. My feeling prior to Jan. 6 was that while I wouldn't withhold a vote for him on character issues, I understood those who did. His support of the riot was the proverbial final straw for me. I wouldn't vote for him now. YMMV. Based on pitching alone Schilling has always been on the cusp. It is more about regular season vs post season with him. If you want to weight post season higher then he is in, if not he is marginal. Although I despise his politics I will not hold that against him. If he deserves to be in based on what he did on the mound then he should be in, fact is that can be argued. Beyond his politics I think he was just generally disliked based on his personality. He's 23rd all-time in B-Ref WAR among 20th and 21st century P's, so I don't think he's borderline based on his pitching. I wouldn't withhold a vote from someone because I disagree with him on highway spending or taxation. Those are political questions. He has said filthy things about Muslims, the transgender community and others. He assumed Adam Jones was lying about being called a racial slur and supported an attempt to overthrow the United States government. The guy's a POS in many ways that have nothing to do politics. |
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Post by voiceofreason on Nov 23, 2021 19:37:15 GMT -5
Based on pitching alone Schilling has always been on the cusp. It is more about regular season vs post season with him. If you want to weight post season higher then he is in, if not he is marginal. Although I despise his politics I will not hold that against him. If he deserves to be in based on what he did on the mound then he should be in, fact is that can be argued. Beyond his politics I think he was just generally disliked based on his personality. He's 23rd all-time in B-Ref WAR among 20th and 21st century P's, so I don't think he's borderline based on his pitching. I wouldn't withhold a vote from someone because I disagree with him on highway spending or taxation. Those are political questions. He has said filthy things about Muslims, the transgender community and others. He assumed Adam Jones was lying about being called a racial slur and supported an attempt to overthrow the United States government. The guy's a POS in many ways that have nothing to do politics. Just for shits and giggles go research Ty Cobb. |
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Nov 23, 2021 19:51:52 GMT -5
He's 23rd all-time in B-Ref WAR among 20th and 21st century P's, so I don't think he's borderline based on his pitching. I wouldn't withhold a vote from someone because I disagree with him on highway spending or taxation. Those are political questions. He has said filthy things about Muslims, the transgender community and others. He assumed Adam Jones was lying about being called a racial slur and supported an attempt to overthrow the United States government. The guy's a POS in many ways that have nothing to do politics. Just for shits and giggles go research Ty Cobb. Fair point but I'd have the same attitude. I wouldn't fault anyone who withheld a vote for him on character issues if the voting rules of 1936 allowed that. It's also worth mentioning that a book that came out a few years ago claimed that Cobb wasn't nearly the monster discredited biographer Al Stump made him out to be. I haven't read the book but I saw a video of the author talking about it he seemed to have done his homework. Look, I won't picket the Hall if Schilling gets in because his on-field career easily merits it. But I won't experience the joy I did when Pedro got elected or that I expect to feel the year Ortiz gets in (fingers crossed). Conversely, I won't be disappointed if he misses again. |
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,982
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Post by jimoh on Nov 23, 2021 19:54:33 GMT -5
He's 23rd all-time in B-Ref WAR among 20th and 21st century P's, so I don't think he's borderline based on his pitching. I wouldn't withhold a vote from someone because I disagree with him on highway spending or taxation. Those are political questions. He has said filthy things about Muslims, the transgender community and others. He assumed Adam Jones was lying about being called a racial slur and supported an attempt to overthrow the United States government. The guy's a POS in many ways that have nothing to do politics. Just for shits and giggles go research Ty Cobb. Can you find me a Ty Cobb quote about how joking about lynching journalists is “awesome”? You don’t have to like that character counts but if it does this guy is the lowest of the low. www.boston.com/news/politics/2016/11/08/curt-schilling-thinks-shirt-threatening-to-lynch-journalists-is-awesome/?amp=1 |
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Post by manfred on Nov 23, 2021 20:08:30 GMT -5
Schilling is near-unanimous if this is advanced stats. If you look at his career year by year and with traditional stats, he closer to the line.
I guess the thing is, if I liked him, I could make an easy case. I don’t like him, and I can make a case for not voting for him based on his stats. That said, if I’m being fair, I’d say he gets in if Halladay is in.
Can we let him in but not let him make a speech? I think he is, ahem, deplorable, but I have a hard time keeping him out for it.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Nov 23, 2021 20:19:52 GMT -5
Interesting dilemma here, Bonds, Clemens, ARoid and Ortiz all on the same ballot. It'll be interesting to see if there are gray areas or black and white for PED voting.
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Post by incandenza on Nov 23, 2021 20:26:10 GMT -5
Soak it in, everybody, it's the last time we get to have the perpetually fun and productive Schilling debate...
Now the one who is riiiiight on the line for me is Andy Pettitte. 68 fWAR and 61 bWAR would normally be good enough, by my lights, but, I dunno... He has a career 3.85 ERA, which is better than it looks as he put that up right through the steroid era, but still not exactly what you asasociate with a HOF profile. He had maybe two really great seasons and then was mostly just above average for like 15 other seasons. But there's something to be said for being an above average and occasionally great MLB pitcher for 18 years. He should also get extra points for having to play in front of Jeter's terrible defense for almost his entire career. In the end he's not quite there for me, but I do waver.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 23, 2021 20:29:03 GMT -5
He's 23rd all-time in B-Ref WAR among 20th and 21st century P's, so I don't think he's borderline based on his pitching. I wouldn't withhold a vote from someone because I disagree with him on highway spending or taxation. Those are political questions. He has said filthy things about Muslims, the transgender community and others. He assumed Adam Jones was lying about being called a racial slur and supported an attempt to overthrow the United States government. The guy's a POS in many ways that have nothing to do politics. Just for shits and giggles go research Ty Cobb. Cobb was not nearly the monster he unfairly was made out to be. Try researching KKK member Tris Speaker if you want to be disgusted. |
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Post by incandenza on Nov 23, 2021 20:29:17 GMT -5
Interesting dilemma here, Bonds, Clemens, ARoid and Ortiz all on the same ballot. It'll be interesting to see if there are gray areas or black and white for PED voting. If I cared about PEDs (I do not, really) I would consider ARod the worst offender, as he did 'em when you weren't supposed to and got suspended for it. Clemens and Bonds did it when everyone was being tacitly encouraged to, and Manfred has all but exonerated Ortiz altogether. But who knows how the people who do care about steroids will see it. |
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 23, 2021 20:51:42 GMT -5
It's so damn subjective.
On my meaningless ballot I try to avoid guys that are strongly rumored to be steroid guys and in my opinion wouldn't have put up the numbers to make the HOF if not for steroids which means I wouldnt vote for McGwire, Sosa, or Palmeiro. Nor would I vote for guys who violated the rules once they were put in place like ARod and Manny.
So that loophole allows me to finally vote Clemens and Bonds who were HOFers even without PEDs.
And my logic could be so convoluted that my so called standards are ridiculous.
I dont know what to make of spitballer Gaylord Perry if he was not already in the HOF or bat corker Pete Rose. Rose's betting on baseball would be a no vote for me. Shoeless Joe is a tougher case. Was part of the fix, but did he try to purposely lose?
And then moral non game stuff. I hate Schilling's extremist politics but he doesn't even have a criminal record so I would vote for him. Short of the candidate being a murderer or violent crime I wouldn't withhold my vote.
So that's a no on Vizquel even if he was an overwhelming candidate.
I'm glad, given all this crap, that I dont have a real vote. It's so damn confusing and that's even before you get to figure out what constitutes a HOFer on the field who isn't subject to all of the above.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Nov 23, 2021 20:51:54 GMT -5
Ortiz Bonds Clemens and Schilling get in this time around. Just way too many moments in Ortiz's career to get shut out.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 23, 2021 20:54:53 GMT -5
Ortiz Bonds Clemens and Schilling get in this time around. Just way too many moments in Ortiz's career to get shut out. None of those guys are getting in this year. Maybe Ortiz but more likely in 2023. The veterans committee will probably vote in Clemens and Bonds. Dont think they'll vote in Schilling who wasn't that well liked by his peers. |
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Nov 23, 2021 21:56:55 GMT -5
He's 23rd all-time in B-Ref WAR among 20th and 21st century P's, so I don't think he's borderline based on his pitching. I wouldn't withhold a vote from someone because I disagree with him on highway spending or taxation. Those are political questions. He has said filthy things about Muslims, the transgender community and others. He assumed Adam Jones was lying about being called a racial slur and supported an attempt to overthrow the United States government. The guy's a POS in many ways that have nothing to do politics. Just for shits and giggles go research Ty Cobb. Schilling deserves to be in the HOF! It has become a popularity contest! Harold Baines should not be in the HOF, because he absolutely was not HOF worthy. Schilling should be there whether you like him or not. I hate Pete Rose, but he should absolutely be there too!!!!!! |
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Post by scottysmalls on Nov 23, 2021 23:53:23 GMT -5
Just for shits and giggles go research Ty Cobb. Schilling deserves to be in the HOF! It has become a popularity contest! Harold Baines should not be in the HOF, because he absolutely was not HOF worthy. Schilling should be there whether you like him or not. I hate Pete Rose, but he should absolutely be there too!!!!!! While it doesn't specify how to rate these factors the criteria specifically states: "Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played." I won't comment on specific people's character/integrity, other than to say it doesn't outrage me if some writers don't vote for Schilling on that basis. |
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Nov 24, 2021 0:19:23 GMT -5
Schilling is near-unanimous if this is advanced stats. If you look at his career year by year and with traditional stats, he closer to the line. I guess the thing is, if I liked him, I could make an easy case. I don’t like him, and I can make a case for not voting for him based on his stats. That said, if I’m being fair, I’d say he gets in if Halladay is in. Can we let him in but not let him make a speech? I think he is, ahem, deplorable, but I have a hard time keeping him out for it. agreed! Schilling is good enough to be in! It is not like any of the people commenting are going to marry the guy! Schilling deserves to be in. Let him in, then all the debate on him can stop. Schilling did not cheat like Bonds, Clemens, Ramirez, A-Wrong, and others! If character is THE issue then none of them should be in!!!!!!!! If you vote for those guys and not Schilling then YOU are a hypocrite!!!!!!! |
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Nov 24, 2021 6:07:58 GMT -5
Ortiz Bonds Clemens and Schilling get in this time around. Just way too many moments in Ortiz's career to get shut out. None of those guys are getting in this year. Maybe Ortiz but more likely in 2023. The veterans committee will probably vote in Clemens and Bonds. Dont think they'll vote in Schilling who wasn't that well liked by his peers. Agree to disagree. Ortiz being on that list wasn't great but no one knew anything about what he tested positive for etc...Clemens and Bonds is different where they had court cases brought to light with damning evidence but the strange thing is neither guy really needed the stuff to make the hall. Schilling is a hall of famer but like Ty Cobb is a massive POS. Thats still not enough to keep him out though. Let the man have his day. If people boo during his entire speech though that might be popcorn worthy. |
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 2,780
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Post by mobaz on Nov 24, 2021 6:16:54 GMT -5
Schilling should have made it 8 years ago and then we never would have had to hear from or about him again.
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Post by foreverred9 on Nov 24, 2021 10:49:32 GMT -5
Schilling has 80 career WAR (both bWAR and fWAR), the only people above him in bWAR not in the hall are cheaters (Clemens, Bonds, ARod, Rose) and recent players (Pujols, Beltre).
Let's just vote them all in this year and make 2021 the class of the villains. Clemens, Bonds, ARod, Rose, and Schilling. Done.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 24, 2021 11:16:40 GMT -5
None of those guys are getting in this year. Maybe Ortiz but more likely in 2023. The veterans committee will probably vote in Clemens and Bonds. Dont think they'll vote in Schilling who wasn't that well liked by his peers. Agree to disagree. Ortiz being on that list wasn't great but no one knew anything about what he tested positive for etc...Clemens and Bonds is different where they had court cases brought to light with damning evidence but the strange thing is neither guy really needed the stuff to make the hall. Schilling is a hall of famer but like Ty Cobb is a massive POS. Thats still not enough to keep him out though. Let the man have his day. If people boo during his entire speech though that might be popcorn worthy. No he wasn't. Ty Cobb wasn't a massive POS. He was a victim of a hit job by Al Stump who fabricated a lot of stuff. Cobb was the son of an abolitionist and favored integration. I'm tired of seeing something that is incorrect continued to be spouted when it has been debunked. A lot of the myths regarding Cobb have been debunked. I'm not saying he was a saint, but he was not as portrayed in Stump's book or the movie based off the book. I agree with Clemens and Bonds being HOF worthy even if they never took PEDs, but that doesn't mean that this year, their last year of eligibility to get into the HOF via the writers that they're going to make the jump from 61% to 75%. And while I would hold my nose and vote for Schilling he will not get the additional 4% from the writers. Had he not been the POS, I have no doubt he'd get in this year. Now it's not going to happen. A lot of writers have decided not to vote for him. Doesn't mean they're right. But I'm not arguing who SHOULD go in - I'm arguing who I think WILL go in THIS year. Like I said, Bonds and Clemens will probably get in via the Veterans Committee at some point. I don't think Schilling will get into the HOF now because not only did he burn bridges with the writers who vote for him this year, but I'm sure he has burnt bridges with other players, some who will be on the panel advocating for other players on the Veterans' committee. |
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Post by saltalamacchia4mvp on Nov 24, 2021 12:04:35 GMT -5
Regardless of politics, Schilling is 100% a hall-of-famer and it's a shame it's taken this long for him to get in. Really difficult to tell the story of baseball (especially the 2000s) without Curt's name coming up more than a few times.
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