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Post by julyanmorley on Dec 4, 2022 12:34:39 GMT -5
Pirates fans on Twitter seem to have wildly unrealistic expectations about the Reynolds return
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Post by Foulke_In_Athol on Dec 4, 2022 12:39:46 GMT -5
What if you did something like Verdugo (eat salary), Yorke, Mata, Anthony for Reynolds and a lottery ticket.
A proven major league on the cheap might be more attractive to the Pirates than certain prospects.
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Post by bellhorndingers21 on Dec 4, 2022 12:44:07 GMT -5
Pirates fans on Twitter seem to have wildly unrealistic expectations about the Reynolds return Sox Twitter isn't much better. Yorke and Rafaela are turning into Bostons version of Frazier and Andjuar.
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Post by melvinhoggs on Dec 4, 2022 13:12:31 GMT -5
Pirates fans on Twitter seem to have wildly unrealistic expectations about the Reynolds return Sox Twitter isn't much better. Yorke and Rafaela are turning into Bostons version of Frazier and Andjuar. In some small bit of fairness, at least Rafaela is very much on the rise. Yorke, Frazier and Andújar are/were fans' favorite type of prospects to throw out in trade talks because their hype was falling a lot after early buzz. That said, a package for Reynolds without a clear headliner (which Rafaela isn't, yet) just isn't going to happen. If you're not including at least one of Mayer, Bello or Casas, another team is almost certain to beat your offer... and to be honest, I'm fine with that. It could change quickly, but the Red Sox aren't on that competitive cusp yet where I want to see them shell out their best prospects for a guy like Reynolds who has a mixed bag of some-good-some-great results.
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Post by bosoxnation on Dec 4, 2022 13:14:35 GMT -5
If we are going to sign X for long term i love Mikey so i’d trade Mayer for Reynolds. An all star ML for a what if minor league all day every day. Especially with 3 years of control. That lets us spend money on X/Devers and pitching and fast tracks us to contenders sooner rather then later. Why would signing X make Mayer expendable? X is lucky if he has 3 years left at SS and if he were extended for 7 years he certainly wouldn't be the SS for 7 years. The amount of life he has left at SS kind of lines up with Mayer's arrival. And if Mayer is comparable to a young Corey Seager I'd hate to trade 6 cost controlled years of that for 3 of Reynolds. He'll soon become a corner outfielder. I'll take 6 years of a star SS to 3 years of an all-star corner OF. Mayer hasn’t played above A ball. Let’s not call him a Major league all star. X signing for 6-7 years makes 3-4 years at SS until Mikey is ready. Let’s us pay Devers too. Opens up more does doors by getting a RF that’s under control for cheap for 3 more years. Also a switch hitter. What’s not to like? Remove Mayer from our sox prospects top 10 and it’s still the best top 10 we’ve had in a long time.
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Post by oldfaithful2019 on Dec 4, 2022 18:23:46 GMT -5
If the Pirates respect his request, then I really hope the Sox are willing to get this done. Try to have Bednar added to the deal and as I suggested in the trade proposal sub forum, offer Cassas/ Mayer ( assuming we sign a SS), Raffaella and Tanner Houk. Reynolds as leadoff hitter, significant outfield upgrade and 3 years of cost control. Bednar to stregthen the pen even further with proven closer to compete with Barnes and Martin for top dog. Reynolds is exactly the type of roster improvement the Sox need to make and yes the cost will be high. I'm sorry but that's an insane package for a merely good OF and a bullpen arm. No thank you. Just to be clear if I were not, I suggest one of Cassas or Mayer, not both. Reynolds had the 12th best OPS of major league outfielders in 2022. 6th best in 2021. That is more than just a good outfielder. 3 yrs cost control and he immediately becomes the Sox best outfielder. If the Sox are to get back in the championship hunt, where they belong, assertive moves need to be made. The Pirates know that the time to strike is now as the haul they can get lessens the closer he gets to FA. I hope the Sox are right in the middle of the conversations and will be disappointed if one of the other AL contenders were to get him because they were willing to include a top 25 prospect in the deal.
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Post by ematz1423 on Dec 4, 2022 18:30:17 GMT -5
I'm sorry but that's an insane package for a merely good OF and a bullpen arm. No thank you. Just to be clear if I were not, I suggest one of Cassas or Mayer, not both. Reynolds had the 12th best OPS of major league outfielders in 2022. 6th best in 2021. That is more than just a good outfielder. 3 yrs cost control and he immediately becomes the Sox best outfielder. If the Sox are to get back in the championship hunt, where they belong, assertive moves need to be made. The Pirates know that the time to strike is now as the haul they can get lessens the closer he gets to FA. I hope the Sox are right in the middle of the conversations and will be disappointed if one of the other AL contenders were to get him because they were willing to include a top 25 prospect in the deal. Ha ya I originally read it as both and later realized you meant one of casas/mayer. Even that being the case I'm not willing to give up that package. I feel like houck is worth as much as Bednar if not more by himself and I'm not for giving up one of mayer/Casas plus raefella. It's still too much for me to want them to do that deal.
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Post by oldfaithful2019 on Dec 4, 2022 18:31:00 GMT -5
What if you did something like Verdugo (eat salary), Yorke, Mata, Anthony for Reynolds and a lottery ticket. A proven major league on the cheap might be more attractive to the Pirates than certain prospects. As the roster stands today, Verdugo is the best Red Sox outfielder. If/ when the day comes that he is the 3rd best, that will be a great day and Alex will be solid player on a WS caliber team. No reason to deal him and especially to eat a dollar of his salary if they did. He is not a dump candidate at all.
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Post by dirtywaterinla on Dec 4, 2022 18:36:09 GMT -5
If Casas or Bello get traded for Reynolds, I’ll be livid. Completely flies in the face of the objectives that the FO has laid forth the past 3 seasons of developing controllable talent. Reynolds is controllable talent That said, I also would not be happy True, true. Just using the good ole calculus that 6 years of control for a potential OBP machine 1B (Casas) and upper tier SP (Bello) is better than 3 years of control for an above average corner OF.
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Post by jmei on Dec 4, 2022 18:44:59 GMT -5
Unpopular opinion: I’m not sure Casas will ever be able to combine a high-OBP approach with a high-power approach and this offseason may be the best time to sell high on him. Reynolds is the rare player that might be worth trading Casas for. Discuss.
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Post by dirtywaterinla on Dec 4, 2022 19:01:41 GMT -5
Unpopular opinion: I’m not sure Casas will ever be able to combine a high-OBP approach with a high-power approach and this offseason may be the best time to sell high on him. Reynolds is the rare player that might be worth trading Casas for. Discuss. Under this scenario, I’d prefer Casas for Sean Murphy (instead of Reynolds) given he plays a far more premium position (catcher) and has just as much control.
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Post by notstarboard on Dec 4, 2022 19:02:18 GMT -5
Unpopular opinion: I’m not sure Casas will ever be able to combine a high-OBP approach with a high-power approach and this offseason may be the best time to sell high on him. Reynolds is the rare player that might be worth trading Casas for. Discuss. I agree with you. Someone earlier said they'd rule out Mayer and Bello, but they'd consider Casas - very much on board with that. Like, let's assume a 50th percentile outcome for Casas. Per SP.com, that'd make him an above-average regular at 1B. He'd be making league minimum for the next three seasons before getting on the arb escalator for the next three. But guess what - the Sox already have an average-ish regular at 1B making the league minimum for the next three seasons: Eric Hosmer. I certainly do expect Casas to be more productive than Hosmer by some margin, but especially at a position like 1B and especially at league minimum, I can live with a bit less production if it means having a stud to play RF at Fenway. This would really help balance out the 2023 team's roster too. Now all of a sudden Hosmer and Dalbec can platoon. Instead of being weak in the OF and having one extra 1B/DH type, we'd have a solid OF and eliminate the mini logjam. Hosmer has a no trade from what I've heard, so Casas may well be the easier one to move.
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Post by incandenza on Dec 4, 2022 19:07:28 GMT -5
Unpopular opinion: I’m not sure Casas will ever be able to combine a high-OBP approach with a high-power approach and this offseason may be the best time to sell high on him. Reynolds is the rare player that might be worth trading Casas for. Discuss. The problem as I see it is they have NO good cheap young talent on the position player side. Verdugo is into his arb years and only has two years of control left. Devers is backig his truck up to Fort Knox, if he's even sticking around. Dalbec and Duran do not look like everyday players. Arroyo and McGuire help round out the roster but they're hardly core pieces. Can we count on the likes of Rafaela, Valdez, and Abreu to turn into everyday players? Let alone that Rafaela might have to go along with Casas in order to land Reynolds.
Reynolds himself will be a $10 million player in 2024 and a $15 million guy by 2025. I just don't know if it's feasible to build a solid lineup when you don't have any young cheap everyday players. And Casas is the only guy right now who looks set to be that for them.
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Post by 07redsox on Dec 4, 2022 19:09:02 GMT -5
Just a thought, but could their reported interest in Abreu have been to potentially open up more opportunities for a Casas trade for one of the players that have been discussed here? Not sure how I would feel about that overall without seeing a full potential deal, but the interest in Abreu seems to logically lead there.
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Post by julyanmorley on Dec 4, 2022 19:10:46 GMT -5
I thought Casas was overrated (but still a guy I'd be happy to have start in the majors) but then when he was called up and I watched all his PAs for a month I couldn't help but get a good feeling about his future.
I will note that ZiPS only gives him 1.7 WAR per 600 PA next year
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Post by Foulke_In_Athol on Dec 4, 2022 19:11:09 GMT -5
What if you did something like Verdugo (eat salary), Yorke, Mata, Anthony for Reynolds and a lottery ticket. A proven major league on the cheap might be more attractive to the Pirates than certain prospects. As the roster stands today, Verdugo is the best Red Sox outfielder. If/ when the day comes that he is the 3rd best, that will be a great day and Alex will be solid player on a WS caliber team. No reason to deal him and especially to eat a dollar of his salary if they did. He is not a dump candidate at all. I didn't know that making him the headlining piece in a trade for a Star RF was considered a dump. I don't want to include any of the top three or Raffaela, but the Pirates need cheap MLB ready talent to make the deal. The only way to achieve both is to entice Pittsburgh with Value from a different part of the org. That might be comparable with a high end prospect Hi hi
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Dec 4, 2022 19:23:29 GMT -5
Given the way the salaries are skyrocketing, why would anyone ever consider Verdugo a salary dump?
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Post by notstarboard on Dec 4, 2022 19:37:03 GMT -5
Given the way the salaries are skyrocketing, why would anyone ever consider Verdugo a salary dump? Folks are suggesting including him in a trade as the opposite of a salary dump. He has surplus value, so including him in a trade for Reynolds is just a way to reduce the prospect cost. It's not implying that Verdugo's not worth what he makes.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Dec 4, 2022 19:46:21 GMT -5
Given the way the salaries are skyrocketing, why would anyone ever consider Verdugo a salary dump? Folks are suggesting including him in a trade as the opposite of a salary dump. He has surplus value, so including him in a trade for Reynolds is just a way to reduce the prospect cost. It's not implying that Verdugo's not worth what he makes. The original proposal a couple of posts up said for the Sox to eat salary on Verdugo. He's a positive asset.
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Post by Foulke_In_Athol on Dec 4, 2022 19:49:39 GMT -5
Given the way the salaries are skyrocketing, why would anyone ever consider Verdugo a salary dump? Since Pittsburgh is probably going to insist on a teams top prospect or two, you're providing Pittsburgh with Value by taking away even #1 Prospect risk by including an established major leaguer, but making Verdugo cheap talent like a top prospect by paying down some of his contract. I didn't know this concept was so hard to understand, using your monetary superiority to offset talent is a way to increase value Pittsburgh is going to get a haul for Reynolds, I'm trying to think of ways to increase our proposed package, without adding Mayer
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Post by incandenza on Dec 4, 2022 19:58:04 GMT -5
Folks are suggesting including him in a trade as the opposite of a salary dump. He has surplus value, so including him in a trade for Reynolds is just a way to reduce the prospect cost. It's not implying that Verdugo's not worth what he makes. The original proposal a couple of posts up said for the Sox to eat salary on Verdugo. He's a positive asset. Right - to further reduce the prospect cost.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Dec 4, 2022 20:17:40 GMT -5
The original proposal a couple of posts up said for the Sox to eat salary on Verdugo. He's a positive asset. Right - to further reduce the prospect cost. It's terrible logic and a waste of a positive asset. They're still going to ask Meyer even if you take the entire contract of Verdugo.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 4, 2022 20:23:06 GMT -5
Why would signing X make Mayer expendable? X is lucky if he has 3 years left at SS and if he were extended for 7 years he certainly wouldn't be the SS for 7 years. The amount of life he has left at SS kind of lines up with Mayer's arrival. And if Mayer is comparable to a young Corey Seager I'd hate to trade 6 cost controlled years of that for 3 of Reynolds. He'll soon become a corner outfielder. I'll take 6 years of a star SS to 3 years of an all-star corner OF. Mayer hasn’t played above A ball. Let’s not call him a Major league all star. X signing for 6-7 years makes 3-4 years at SS until Mikey is ready. Let’s us pay Devers too. Opens up more does doors by getting a RF that’s under control for cheap for 3 more years. Also a switch hitter. What’s not to like? Remove Mayer from our sox prospects top 10 and it’s still the best top 10 we’ve had in a long time. Will agree to disagree. There's questions right now if Romero can stick at SS. No questions like that for Mayer. With Casas graduating Mayer is easily the beat prospect and actually is higher rated than Casas already. I think he's more Seager than Swanson. And I certainly wouldn't trade him for a guy who's soon to be a corner OF and is merely very good. I'd rather have a SS prospect like Mayer. Bogaerts won't even be a SS by the time Mayer is ready which is probably 2025. Hell, Bogaerts is looking less and less like the SS of the Red Sox in 2023. Trading any of their top 4 for Reynolds makes little sense.
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Post by Foulke_In_Athol on Dec 4, 2022 20:28:38 GMT -5
Right - to further reduce the prospect cost. It's terrible logic and a waste of a positive asset. They're still going to ask Meyer even if you take the entire contract of Verdugo. Really because we took Verdugo back for a much better player than Reynolds and not even close to as good a prospect as Mayer (you might want to know how to spell our systems #1 prospects name) I guess Bloom isn't as smart as Pittsburgh or I guess he just has terrible logic. I no the above is not really here nor there, but Bloom should be wise enough to be able to flex financial muscle in a trade to gain top caliber talent whether it's Reynolds or another player like him.... Including Mayer in any trade that doesn't get back Ohtani is a non-starter.
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Post by jmei on Dec 4, 2022 20:40:09 GMT -5
Unpopular opinion: I’m not sure Casas will ever be able to combine a high-OBP approach with a high-power approach and this offseason may be the best time to sell high on him. Reynolds is the rare player that might be worth trading Casas for. Discuss. The problem as I see it is they have NO good cheap young talent on the position player side. Verdugo is into his arb years and only has two years of control left. Devers is backig his truck up to Fort Knox, if he's even sticking around. Dalbec and Duran do not look like everyday players. Arroyo and McGuire help round out the roster but they're hardly core pieces. Can we count on the likes of Rafaela, Valdez, and Abreu to turn into everyday players? Let alone that Rafaela might have to go along with Casas in order to land Reynolds. Reynolds himself will be a $10 million player in 2024 and a $15 million guy by 2025. I just don't know if it's feasible to build a solid lineup when you don't have any young cheap everyday players. And Casas is the only guy right now who looks set to be that for them.
I take the point that cost controlled productive position players are an important asset, but I’m not sure there’s a disproportionate difference between having one guy who might fit that profile and no guys who might fit that profile. (I’m also pretty high on Rafaela.)
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