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Is There a New Core, or...
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Post by Guidas on Dec 11, 2022 16:35:59 GMT -5
This is bad in a boom and bust model, but this is just fine for a team that wants to compete every year. Rather than having all of the surplus value concentrated in a "core", you have a mix of young guys at various stages of pre-arb into arb and just keep the machine churning. Provided the density of graduates is high enough, life is good. I mean, sure, having staggered arrival times is great if you have 3-4 outstanding core players at a time. I guess my point is that I don’t see potential here for core density at any given point comparable to any of the four Red Sox champion teams, or to the Astros, Dodgers, etc.
I see a core that’s good enough for perpetual 85 win mediocrity, which to me is not really an exciting or worthwhile goal. That *could* change *if* they extend a bunch of guys or if both Yorke and Rafaela turn out to be studs. YMMV I am beginning to believe this, too.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Dec 11, 2022 16:37:00 GMT -5
I appreciate this, but none of the guys you highlighted look to be league-average or better. That was the bar. Ceilings are nice to dream on, but 1.2-1.3 ish fWAR guys are pretty easy to find. Well, Walter's projection for next year is already better than league average if you give him 160 innings rather than 80, so he at least already does meet that bar (by ZiPS which is of course only one way perspective). Wong and Murphy are only very slightly behind that. My other point was, if indeed this is the baseline for these guys, average is very attainable with only a small amount of development. No comment on what people might do but the ZIPS predictions on minor leaguers seem crazy. Brandon Walter is 26, had pitched 57.2 innings above A-ball. I’d pump the breaks on building the next wave around guys like him, whatever ZIPS might or might not say. And 160 innings after 57.2 is very ambitious.
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Post by notstarboard on Dec 11, 2022 16:48:30 GMT -5
This is bad in a boom and bust model, but this is just fine for a team that wants to compete every year. Rather than having all of the surplus value concentrated in a "core", you have a mix of young guys at various stages of pre-arb into arb and just keep the machine churning. Provided the density of graduates is high enough, life is good. I mean, sure, having staggered arrival times is great if you have 3-4 outstanding core players at a time. I guess my point is that I don’t see potential here for core density at any given point comparable to any of the four Red Sox champion teams, or to the Astros, Dodgers, etc. I see a core that’s good enough for perpetual 85 win mediocrity, which to me is not really an exciting or worthwhile goal. That *could* change *if* they extend a bunch of guys or if both Yorke and Rafaela turn out to be studs. YMMV Also fair. I don't think it's likely that a consistently competitive team will reach the heights of a 2018 Red Sox frequently. To do that, they'd need really impressive results from the farm and efficient work on the FA market, which is exactly what LAD and HOU have both done lately.
Still some work to do on the farm, but things do seem to be headed in the right direction to me.
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Post by scottysmalls on Dec 11, 2022 16:57:06 GMT -5
Well, Walter's projection for next year is already better than league average if you give him 160 innings rather than 80, so he at least already does meet that bar (by ZiPS which is of course only one way perspective). Wong and Murphy are only very slightly behind that. My other point was, if indeed this is the baseline for these guys, average is very attainable with only a small amount of development. No comment on what people might do but the ZIPS predictions on minor leaguers seem crazy. Brandon Walter is 26, had pitched 57.2 innings above A-ball. I’d pump the breaks on building the next wave around guys like him, whatever ZIPS might or might not say. And 160 innings after 57.2 is very ambitious. I actually agree on being skeptical of ZiPS numbers for these guys. Was just playing the game of using an objective system to see who might have the talent to be an average or better player. Also obviously not projecting him to throw 160 innings in the majors this year, my point there was that this one objective system already thinks he is a better than average player on a rate basis.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 11, 2022 17:41:07 GMT -5
This is bad in a boom and bust model, but this is just fine for a team that wants to compete every year. Rather than having all of the surplus value concentrated in a "core", you have a mix of young guys at various stages of pre-arb into arb and just keep the machine churning. Provided the density of graduates is high enough, life is good. I mean, sure, having staggered arrival times is great if you have 3-4 outstanding core players at a time. I guess my point is that I don’t see potential here for core density at any given point comparable to any of the four Red Sox champion teams, or to the Astros, Dodgers, etc. I see a core that’s good enough for perpetual 85 win mediocrity, which to me is not really an exciting or worthwhile goal. That *could* change *if* they extend a bunch of guys or if both Yorke and Rafaela turn out to be studs. YMMV If they build a core that on it's own can win 85 games, will they use their financial might to get to the next level even if it means 10 year 350 million dollar contracts for an elite star player? Can Bloom actually get useful prospects in trades if they have to convert assets into prospects? Will he be decisive in making these types of trades and will he extract proper value to add to the system? So far I'm dubious on that aspect.
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Post by incandenza on Dec 11, 2022 19:10:58 GMT -5
This is bad in a boom and bust model, but this is just fine for a team that wants to compete every year. Rather than having all of the surplus value concentrated in a "core", you have a mix of young guys at various stages of pre-arb into arb and just keep the machine churning. Provided the density of graduates is high enough, life is good. I mean, sure, having staggered arrival times is great if you have 3-4 outstanding core players at a time. I guess my point is that I don’t see potential here for core density at any given point comparable to any of the four Red Sox champion teams, or to the Astros, Dodgers, etc. I see a core that’s good enough for perpetual 85 win mediocrity, which to me is not really an exciting or worthwhile goal. That *could* change *if* they extend a bunch of guys or if both Yorke and Rafaela turn out to be studs. YMMV The homegrown players who gave them 3+ WAR in 2004 were:
Varitek
In 2007 they were:
Youkilis Pedroia
In 2013 they were:
Pedroia Ellsbury Lester
In 2018 they were:
Betts Benintendi Bogaerts Bradley Jr.
Anywhere from 1 to 4 - and the 4 was the greatest batch of homegrown talent probably in the team's history, mostly peaking at the same time.
All these teams also had major contributions from free agents, guys they had traded for, homegrown complementary pieces that didn't necessarily have great pedigrees, or future Hall of Famers picked up off the scrap heap (referring to Brock Holt of course). You don't need a huge number of homegrown stars; just a few, and then you have to be smart about your other acquisitions and protect a sufficient number of lesser prospects.
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Dec 11, 2022 20:51:11 GMT -5
Within a two-to-three-year period, the Sox rolled out Betts, Benintendi, Bradley Jr., Bogaerts, ERod, Vazquez and Devers. All but Benintendi, Devers and Rodriguez (trade) were Theo acquisitions. All but Devers are now gone. This core helped lead the team to 3 Division titles and a World Series Championship. Really, this makes me think - the smartest thing this ownership group did is hire Theo in the window of opportunity before analytics became widespread. He’s the reason we have 4 championships to celebrate. He’s responsible for essentially the whole core of the 2013 and 2018 teams, and the important acquisitions on the 2004 and 2007 teams (with credit to Dan Duquette for about half the core on those teams). Smart big market teams no longer have an easy edge, either in scooping up undervalued players or in draft compensation. Every team is hip to advanced stats, the player marketplace is more or less efficient, and the draft has been weighted heavily to favor small market teams. There are still edges to be found, but it’s a lot harder and requires some combination of extreme creativity, outstanding talent evaluation, and spending money (see Astros, Rays, Dodgers). It’s not as simple as picking high OBP guys off the garbage heap anymore. DD was responsible for the majority of the core from 2004, he also was the first GM to land arguably the biggest Free Agent on the market in Manny Ramirez, it changed the perception of the Red Sox at the time.
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kwodes
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Post by kwodes on Dec 11, 2022 20:51:26 GMT -5
I mean, sure, having staggered arrival times is great if you have 3-4 outstanding core players at a time. I guess my point is that I don’t see potential here for core density at any given point comparable to any of the four Red Sox champion teams, or to the Astros, Dodgers, etc. I see a core that’s good enough for perpetual 85 win mediocrity, which to me is not really an exciting or worthwhile goal. That *could* change *if* they extend a bunch of guys or if both Yorke and Rafaela turn out to be studs. YMMV The homegrown players who gave them 3+ WAR in 2004 were:
Varitek
In 2007 they were:
Youkilis Pedroia
In 2013 they were:
Pedroia Ellsbury Lester
In 2018 they were:
Betts Benintendi Bogaerts Bradley Jr.
Anywhere from 1 to 4 - and the 4 was the greatest batch of homegrown talent probably in the team's history, mostly peaking at the same time.
All these teams also had major contributions from free agents, guys they had traded for, homegrown complementary pieces that didn't necessarily have great pedigrees, or future Hall of Famers picked up off the scrap heap (referring to Brock Holt of course). You don't need a huge number of homegrown stars; just a few, and then you have to be smart about your other acquisitions and protect a sufficient number of lesser prospects.
I don't think it's out of the question for them to have 3 this year. Devers, Bello, Casas could all reach that 3 WAR mark. Houck too in a best-case scenario.
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Dec 11, 2022 21:03:09 GMT -5
My only real thought here is that if you asked this question a year ago, Yorke would *obviously* be a part of the next "core," and Rafaela would not have entered the discussion. 18 months ago Jeter Downs and Jarren Duran looked like core pieces, while Bello wasn't in the picture at all and Mayer wasn't even in the system. Beyond Bello, Casas, and Whitlock - who have already shown promise at the major league level - I think there's just no real way to know what things will look like in a year, let alone 2 or 3 years down the road. That's the logic of building prospect depth - giving yourself as many chances to hit on the roulette spin as you can.
ADD: Something I just noticed on the Rankings History: Casas was the system's top prospect for 9 consecutive rankings, which is far and away the record for this site.
Casas - 9 Bogaerts - 5
Moncada - 4 Kelly - 4 Anderson - 3 Buchholz - 3
Chavis - 3 Hanley - 3
Middlebrooks - 3 Kalish - 2 Ellsbury - 2 Papelbon -2
Groome - 2 Swihart - 2
Nothing particularly meaningful (and it's aided by the stasis of 2020), just a bit of trivia.
Downs should never have been on that list. Scouts like his athleticism but call me crazy but to be actually considered an upper level prospect you should have had at least some actual results. Cassas string of 9 is every bit as much about the system itself lacking as it is Cassas himself. It finally feels like we have a solid to good farm for the first time in years and we saw the first graduates, Bello and Cassas from the farm to Boston this year too.
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Post by dirtdog on Dec 11, 2022 21:08:33 GMT -5
Casas has a Freddy Freeman ceiling. We should be so lucky. But to be fair Bloom's counter part in Atlanta saw fit to part ways with him too.
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Post by oldfaithful2019 on Dec 11, 2022 21:52:02 GMT -5
Looking back to the great 70's Sox teams I did find the following in 1979. Sadly, those teams could not produce a WS title, but that sure was a time of home grown greatness anyway.
Lynn 8.6 WAR Rice 5.9 Stanley 4.0 Evans 3.9 Burleson 3.2
In terms of a next homegrown core, Cassas and Bello gave us glimpses of hope in 2022. Hopefully each will show in 2023 that they have the talent to be key to the next great Sox team. Perhaps Rafaela and Mata give us their own hopeful glimpes later in 2023. At the lower levels as prospects begin to break away from the pack we may start to see some redundancy position wise. Example such as Walter/ Murphy, Mayer/Romero, Bleis/Anthony start to create the type of depth that can be dealt from to fill holes that the pipeline is not quite ready to fill, yet still have top prospects ready to step in.
It will take discipline and patience from Bloom and others to see this to fruition, as it will take 2-3 more drafts and international signs to have the pipeline full enough. Maybe in the next couple drafts the Sox should shift focus to some college talent that could potentially make the jump to the bigs quicker, like Pedroia and Ellsbury back in their day.
I was ready to include a core prospect or 2 or 3 to obtain Reynolds, or give up draft picks for Nimmo or Rondon, but that was when I thought Xander would come back and we could keep Devers. That dynamic has changed and at this point I'd rather see the next core assert itself and then use excess depth to trade for the complimentary pieces.
It may be longer than I would wish to develop that next great team in this manner, but It sure would be fun to watch it evolve !!
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Dec 12, 2022 1:31:25 GMT -5
I mean, sure, having staggered arrival times is great if you have 3-4 outstanding core players at a time. I guess my point is that I don’t see potential here for core density at any given point comparable to any of the four Red Sox champion teams, or to the Astros, Dodgers, etc. I see a core that’s good enough for perpetual 85 win mediocrity, which to me is not really an exciting or worthwhile goal. That *could* change *if* they extend a bunch of guys or if both Yorke and Rafaela turn out to be studs. YMMV The homegrown players who gave them 3+ WAR in 2004 were:
Varitek
In 2007 they were:
Youkilis Pedroia
In 2013 they were:
Pedroia Ellsbury Lester
In 2018 they were:
Betts Benintendi Bogaerts Bradley Jr.
Anywhere from 1 to 4 - and the 4 was the greatest batch of homegrown talent probably in the team's history, mostly peaking at the same time.
All these teams also had major contributions from free agents, guys they had traded for, homegrown complementary pieces that didn't necessarily have great pedigrees, or future Hall of Famers picked up off the scrap heap (referring to Brock Holt of course). You don't need a huge number of homegrown stars; just a few, and then you have to be smart about your other acquisitions and protect a sufficient number of lesser prospects.
I don't know why the core has to be homegrown. But certainly having useful homegrown players (not just 3+ WAR performers) allows you to divert resources to other important contributors. That said, here's the four highest bWAR guys from each duck-boat team:
2004: Schilling, Pedro, Papi, Damon
2007: Beckett, Papi, Lowell, Youk 2013: Pedroia, Victorino, Ellsbury, Papi 2018: Betts, JDM, Sale, Bogey
Five out of 16 homegrown and none of those repeated a top-four contribution in a championship season (indeed, only Big Papi did, which is kind of surprising that he's the only one and also eye-opening, considering he's most renowned for what he did in the postseason -- plus he did it as a DH).
I think it seems like having a homegrown core is important because there was such an obvious one in the most recent run, not to mention the acquisition of Sale and Kimbrel (and others) from tapping the farm system.
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Post by pappyman99 on Dec 12, 2022 10:43:07 GMT -5
I find it interesting that Cherrington was seemingly strong at blooms weakness which was trading for other teams prospects, which he has still had a pretty good hit rate with the pirates.
Blooms drafts and international signings are good enough, but outside the org in trades he hasn’t been great in prospect trades
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Post by incandenza on Dec 12, 2022 11:24:22 GMT -5
I find it interesting that Cherrington was seemingly strong at blooms weakness which was trading for other teams prospects, which he has still had a pretty good hit rate with the pirates. Blooms drafts and international signings are good enough, but outside the org in trades he hasn’t been great in prospect trades Other than Eduardo Rodriguez Cherington was terrible at this. He scarcely added any prospects through trades at all.
I believe I've disagreed with every single statement you've made on this board.
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Post by oldfaithful2019 on Dec 12, 2022 11:54:31 GMT -5
I find it interesting that Cherrington was seemingly strong at blooms weakness which was trading for other teams prospects, which he has still had a pretty good hit rate with the pirates. Blooms drafts and international signings are good enough, but outside the org in trades he hasn’t been great in prospect trades If you are evaluating Bloom on the Dodgers deal my opinion differs. Verdugo is an every day outfielder and even though Downs appears to have lost it, he was very highly regarded across the baseball world at the time of the deal. It is too soon to reach judgement on the prospects obtained in the deals with the Astros, Brewers and Padres, but at least with Valdez and Hamilton there is promise. If there is a forthcoming Devers deal Bloom will not be saddled with needing to dump an overburdening salary again like with Mookie. Bloom can and should hold firm on a package that brings at least 2 top 100 prospects as a starting point. Lets see how that plays out.
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Post by pappyman99 on Dec 12, 2022 12:28:48 GMT -5
I find it interesting that Cherrington was seemingly strong at blooms weakness which was trading for other teams prospects, which he has still had a pretty good hit rate with the pirates. Blooms drafts and international signings are good enough, but outside the org in trades he hasn’t been great in prospect trades Other than Eduardo Rodriguez Cherington was terrible at this. He scarcely added any prospects through trades at all.
I believe I've disagreed with every single statement you've made on this board.
You can disagree with every one of them it won’t bother me I’m talking prospects specifically, which were not his trades all that often. But he plucked Erod and holt. His dodgers trade was an utter salary dump way more than the Betts trade was. Even those prospects he turned into Wade Miley. He has picked up multiple top 100 prospects in his pirates dealings. Some that have risen after the trades. Where as Blooms track record here is complete failure or to be determined. ***edit. For instance he had gathered Rodriguez, peguero, Crowe, Bernar, suwinski, and Contreras among many other low A guys that are tbd or flamed out. That is mainly the returns for Marte, musgrove, bell, and taillon who all were definitely coming towards the end of there team Control That right there would make me trust BC more with a Reynolds trade than Bloom
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Post by taiwansox on Dec 12, 2022 12:44:58 GMT -5
Other than Eduardo Rodriguez Cherington was terrible at this. He scarcely added any prospects through trades at all.
I believe I've disagreed with every single statement you've made on this board.
You can disagree with every one of them it won’t bother me I’m talking prospects specifically, which were not his trades all that often. But he plucked Erod and holt. His dodgers trade was an utter salary dump way more than the Betts trade was. Even those prospects he turned into Wade Miley. He has picked up multiple top 100 prospects in his pirates dealings. Some that have risen after the trades. Where as Blooms track record here is complete failure or to be determined. Cherington was awful across the board. Holt was because Farrell’s son was in the Pirates system and recommended him (that was also part of the Hanrahan trade which was a total failure dumping Melancon). Bailey, Melancon, Hanrahan trades were all total Ls. Also, resigning Komi instead of Miller. The Victorino signing was lightning in a bottle. Nava and Carp both insanely overperfomed in 2013. Then you have the signings with Rusney, Pablo, and Hanley. I could see the Hanley signing as justified at the time, but not the other two. The Lackey trade where we were selling and somehow got saddled with Craig’s contract… We don’t know about Chaim’s drafts, but damn were Cherington’s drafts awful, that’s even excluding the much maligned Ball pick. DD deserves credit for getting max value out of Kopech and Espinoza.
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Post by pappyman99 on Dec 12, 2022 13:01:13 GMT -5
You can disagree with every one of them it won’t bother me I’m talking prospects specifically, which were not his trades all that often. But he plucked Erod and holt. His dodgers trade was an utter salary dump way more than the Betts trade was. Even those prospects he turned into Wade Miley. He has picked up multiple top 100 prospects in his pirates dealings. Some that have risen after the trades. Where as Blooms track record here is complete failure or to be determined. Cherington was awful across the board. Holt was because Farrell’s son was in the Pirates system and recommended him (that was also part of the Hanrahan trade which was a total failure dumping Melancon). Bailey, Melancon, Hanrahan trades were all total Ls. Also, resigning Komi instead of Miller. The Victorino signing was lightning in a bottle. Nava and Carp both insanely overperfomed in 2013. Then you have the signings with Rusney, Pablo, and Hanley. I could see the Hanley signing as justified at the time, but not the other two. The Lackey trade where we were selling and somehow got saddled with Craig’s contract… We don’t know about Chaim’s drafts, but damn were Cherington’s drafts awful, that’s even excluding the much maligned Ball pick. DD deserves credit for getting max value out of Kopech and Espinoza. Can’t just discredit lucky signings when it got a a World Series. BC did two things. Won in 2013 and protected all of our top prospects. He is doing well so far with the Pirates
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Post by taiwansox on Dec 12, 2022 13:42:27 GMT -5
Cherington was awful across the board. Holt was because Farrell’s son was in the Pirates system and recommended him (that was also part of the Hanrahan trade which was a total failure dumping Melancon). Bailey, Melancon, Hanrahan trades were all total Ls. Also, resigning Komi instead of Miller. The Victorino signing was lightning in a bottle. Nava and Carp both insanely overperfomed in 2013. Then you have the signings with Rusney, Pablo, and Hanley. I could see the Hanley signing as justified at the time, but not the other two. The Lackey trade where we were selling and somehow got saddled with Craig’s contract… We don’t know about Chaim’s drafts, but damn were Cherington’s drafts awful, that’s even excluding the much maligned Ball pick. DD deserves credit for getting max value out of Kopech and Espinoza. Can’t just discredit lucky signings when it got a a World Series. BC did two things. Won in 2013 and protected all of our top prospects. He is doing well so far with the Pirates A World Series and 3 last place finishes. He also held on to guys like Swihart who could have been converted into value. DD for his overspending flaws was elite at maximizing prospect trade value (his flaw was perhaps paying a premium on some trades, but he didn’t have any trades that stick out as clear losses other than Thornburg). With the Pirates, he already looks kinda bad with the Marte, Holmes, Bell, and Taillon trades. The verdict is still out, but he only looks good dumping Adam Frazier at peak value, Musgrove trade is pretty much win-win. And again we will see how his drafts pan out… Cherington hasn’t built a consistent winner. He’s shown little track record of successful drafts, trades and free agent signings. His draft failures and really crappy mid-sized deals (Rusney, Hanley, and Pablo), hamstrung us for years. We’re finally getting some contribution from our farm with Houck/Crawford/Casas and that’s all from DD.
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Post by pappyman99 on Dec 12, 2022 15:44:52 GMT -5
Can’t just discredit lucky signings when it got a a World Series. BC did two things. Won in 2013 and protected all of our top prospects. He is doing well so far with the Pirates A World Series and 3 last place finishes. He also held on to guys like Swihart who could have been converted into value. DD for his overspending flaws was elite at maximizing prospect trade value (his flaw was perhaps paying a premium on some trades, but he didn’t have any trades that stick out as clear losses other than Thornburg). With the Pirates, he already looks kinda bad with the Marte, Holmes, Bell, and Taillon trades. The verdict is still out, but he only looks good dumping Adam Frazier at peak value, Musgrove trade is pretty much win-win. And again we will see how his drafts pan out… Cherington hasn’t built a consistent winner. He’s shown little track record of successful drafts, trades and free agent signings. His draft failures and really crappy mid-sized deals (Rusney, Hanley, and Pablo), hamstrung us for years. We’re finally getting some contribution from our farm with Houck/Crawford/Casas and that’s all from DD. Already bad returns? How so? Contreras looks like he could be a 2-3 starter. Acquired 2 top 60 prospects depending on where you are looking. Also bednar which he can flip for a lot at this point Let’s put it this way. We traded away / lost Benny, bogaerts, and Betts for Verdugo, downs, Wong, Francy, winchowski, and non prospects at this point If we are honest with ourselves here. Verdugo is the only one worth anything there. Pirates. Taillon, Marte, Frazier, musgrove. They received (noteable guys thus far). Bednar (all star closer), suwinski (already outproduced Frazier at 23 a year after the trade). Contreras (looks like 3 maybe gets to a 2 as an SP). Rodriguez is a stud catcher top 40 prospect. Peguero, looks good, top 60-75 prospect. Bogaerts and Betts are much better than those guys they traded away, and yea that is on Bloom for not trading bogaerts, especially at the deadline I’m not much of a Cherrington defender really. He won a WS though so I’m definitely going to defend him over Bloom at this point. Same with DD and Theo. With Bloom there has been a lack of commitment to build by spending or trading assets. What’s left is a last place team and a non-top 10 farm. That’s a problem
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Post by notstarboard on Dec 13, 2022 9:56:47 GMT -5
A World Series and 3 last place finishes. He also held on to guys like Swihart who could have been converted into value. DD for his overspending flaws was elite at maximizing prospect trade value (his flaw was perhaps paying a premium on some trades, but he didn’t have any trades that stick out as clear losses other than Thornburg). With the Pirates, he already looks kinda bad with the Marte, Holmes, Bell, and Taillon trades. The verdict is still out, but he only looks good dumping Adam Frazier at peak value, Musgrove trade is pretty much win-win. And again we will see how his drafts pan out… Cherington hasn’t built a consistent winner. He’s shown little track record of successful drafts, trades and free agent signings. His draft failures and really crappy mid-sized deals (Rusney, Hanley, and Pablo), hamstrung us for years. We’re finally getting some contribution from our farm with Houck/Crawford/Casas and that’s all from DD. Already bad returns? How so? Contreras looks like he could be a 2-3 starter. Acquired 2 top 60 prospects depending on where you are looking. Also bednar which he can flip for a lot at this point Let’s put it this way. We traded away / lost Benny, bogaerts, and Betts for Verdugo, downs, Wong, Francy, winchowski, and non prospects at this point If we are honest with ourselves here. Verdugo is the only one worth anything there. Pirates. Taillon, Marte, Frazier, musgrove. They received (noteable guys thus far). Bednar (all star closer), suwinski (already outproduced Frazier at 23 a year after the trade). Contreras (looks like 3 maybe gets to a 2 as an SP). Rodriguez is a stud catcher top 40 prospect. Peguero, looks good, top 60-75 prospect. Bogaerts and Betts are much better than those guys they traded away, and yea that is on Bloom for not trading bogaerts, especially at the deadline I’m not much of a Cherrington defender really. He won a WS though so I’m definitely going to defend him over Bloom at this point. Same with DD and Theo. With Bloom there has been a lack of commitment to build by spending or trading assets. What’s left is a last place team and a non-top 10 farm. That’s a problem Non top-10 as in... 11? Lol www.mlb.com/news/farm-system-rankings-2022-midseasonI will also not tolerate this slander of my boy Connor Wong
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Dec 13, 2022 10:18:10 GMT -5
Already bad returns? How so? Contreras looks like he could be a 2-3 starter. Acquired 2 top 60 prospects depending on where you are looking. Also bednar which he can flip for a lot at this point Let’s put it this way. We traded away / lost Benny, bogaerts, and Betts for Verdugo, downs, Wong, Francy, winchowski, and non prospects at this point If we are honest with ourselves here. Verdugo is the only one worth anything there. Pirates. Taillon, Marte, Frazier, musgrove. They received (noteable guys thus far). Bednar (all star closer), suwinski (already outproduced Frazier at 23 a year after the trade). Contreras (looks like 3 maybe gets to a 2 as an SP). Rodriguez is a stud catcher top 40 prospect. Peguero, looks good, top 60-75 prospect. Bogaerts and Betts are much better than those guys they traded away, and yea that is on Bloom for not trading bogaerts, especially at the deadline I’m not much of a Cherrington defender really. He won a WS though so I’m definitely going to defend him over Bloom at this point. Same with DD and Theo. With Bloom there has been a lack of commitment to build by spending or trading assets. What’s left is a last place team and a non-top 10 farm. That’s a problem Non top-10 as in... 11? Lol www.mlb.com/news/farm-system-rankings-2022-midseasonI will also not tolerate this slander of my boy Connor Wong Those rankings are actually slightly discouraging. We finished last in 2022, and 2 teams ahead of us *also* have better farms… and the Yankees are one slot behind us?? I don’t think I realized the talent gap worked all the way through the systems.
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Post by freddysthefuture2003 on Dec 13, 2022 10:28:35 GMT -5
Those rankings are actually slightly discouraging. We finished last in 2022, and 2 teams ahead of us *also* have better farms… and the Yankees are one slot behind us?? I don’t think I realized the talent gap worked all the way through the systems. Calling Contreras a 2 at this point is wild. Take a look at his savant page, and tell me if you think that translates into a 2
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Dec 13, 2022 10:30:17 GMT -5
Those rankings are actually slightly discouraging. We finished last in 2022, and 2 teams ahead of us *also* have better farms… and the Yankees are one slot behind us?? I don’t think I realized the talent gap worked all the way through the systems. Calling Contreras a 2 at this point is wild. Take a look at his savant page, and tell me if you think that translates into a 2 Fine… but it is hard to point to a list and say “look, it says our farm is good,” then say it is not accurate elsewhere. If they are off, then it doesn’t help support the former claim.
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Post by incandenza on Dec 13, 2022 10:39:14 GMT -5
Those rankings are actually slightly discouraging. We finished last in 2022, and 2 teams ahead of us *also* have better farms… and the Yankees are one slot behind us?? I don’t think I realized the talent gap worked all the way through the systems. The Orioles and Rays have better prospects but an unwillingness to spend. The Blue Jays have better current talent but less on the farm. The Yankees have a comparable farm and better current talent, but terrifying long-term financial commitments.
In theory, the Red Sox have the balance between current talent, financial flexibility, and prospect depth to be... a consistent contender. But execution is the thing.
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