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6/27-6/29 Red Sox vs. Marlins Series Thread
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Post by keninten on Jun 27, 2023 1:35:12 GMT -5
I grew up in NH and have been a Sox fan since the 60`s. I moved out of NH in the 80`s. I`ve enjoyed the Sox much better without ever hearing the Boston media. Because of DOB I don`t even watch their broadcasts. I`m enjoying the game better without all their BS. I follow along outside the lines here. Thanks everyone.
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Post by Guidas on Jun 27, 2023 7:07:39 GMT -5
This is why i despise the shit stirring Boston media. Notice something off with these two tweets from Dan? if you want to be paid to shitpost at least pick a damn lane! Not following. That's a photo from the 1977 team that was pretty damn good and entertaining and could have used a wild card. 2021 was good. The other years have been dullsville. I don't really see the sh!t-stirring here. I just see somebody wishing the team was actually captivating, which they're simply not. If you need an assist because perhaps you don't know who's in the photo, it's The Boomer George Scott, the Rooster Rick Burleson, Jim Rice, Yaz, Pudge Fisk, Freddie Lynn, and Bill Campbell. And that photo doesn't include some of the non all-stars like Luis Tiant, Bill Lee, and Dwight Evans, not to mention a crazy character like Bernie Carbo. And this was a year before they added Dennis Eckersley and Jerry Remy. That's a lot of colorful characters and a lot of all-star caliber players. For a lot of us it's that 2003-2008 era team that had a similar crazy but fun cast to root for - that happened to be pretty damn good. I certainly miss those days. Hell I miss the 2018 team. And the 2013 team. It's just a pedestrian time to be a Red Sox fan. I hope it changes but it's certainly not there now. I'd like to interrupt the "Great Depression" discussion for a moment here to say one thing: DWIGHT EVANS SHOULD BE IN THE BASEBALL HALL OF FAME!That is all.
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Post by Guidas on Jun 27, 2023 7:12:15 GMT -5
Im sorry but i flat out disagree here. You think we are in the “great depression” of red sox baseball as Dan thinks? I have no skin in the Boston media fights. And “great depression” might be strong in the long history. But in my lifetime, since the 80s, this is the least I’ve enjoyed the Sox. It is to the point that I might not renew my mlb.com subscription next year — my interest has waned. I have zero investment in most of the roster. I’m here for Raffy, Casas, a couple of pitchers. Duran. That is really it, I think. Shaughnessy is a craphead who recycles the same 8-10 columns, but the culprit of the addled "depression" analogy is Terry Cushman, who is engaging in hyperbole on social media (SHOCK!). He's the one who deserves the ire. Dan is just a re-Tweeter, which is a nice metaphor for his entire career. If I were to characterize this team in economic terms under the current regime it's been more like stagflation or a recession, with one spiking up year, one spiking down year and 2022's and this year's (so far) march of Meh. Taken together, that trendline is decidedly flat. This is especially true when compared to the previous years (2003-2019) under this regime. There was a sour dip in that stretch, too, but as was said by a few, 2013 with all its unexpected joy and high-points mollified the bitterness of 2012, 2014-15. It it was rapidly rectified and followed by four solid years of winning, including three division titles and the glorious excellence of 2018. It is what it is, BUT there is still time for this team to turn it around. All they need to do is get in the playoffs. Fangraphs' odds aside, historically, every playoff game is a virtual coin-flip. Look no further than last year's run by the otherwise hapless Phillies for evidence.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jun 27, 2023 7:53:51 GMT -5
Cushman doesn’t know ball
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 27, 2023 8:47:41 GMT -5
Not following. That's a photo from the 1977 team that was pretty damn good and entertaining and could have used a wild card. 2021 was good. The other years have been dullsville. I don't really see the sh!t-stirring here. I just see somebody wishing the team was actually captivating, which they're simply not. If you need an assist because perhaps you don't know who's in the photo, it's The Boomer George Scott, the Rooster Rick Burleson, Jim Rice, Yaz, Pudge Fisk, Freddie Lynn, and Bill Campbell. And that photo doesn't include some of the non all-stars like Luis Tiant, Bill Lee, and Dwight Evans, not to mention a crazy character like Bernie Carbo. And this was a year before they added Dennis Eckersley and Jerry Remy. That's a lot of colorful characters and a lot of all-star caliber players. For a lot of us it's that 2003-2008 era team that had a similar crazy but fun cast to root for - that happened to be pretty damn good. I certainly miss those days. Hell I miss the 2018 team. And the 2013 team. It's just a pedestrian time to be a Red Sox fan. I hope it changes but it's certainly not there now. I'd like to interrupt the "Great Depression" discussion for a moment here to say one thing: DWIGHT EVANS SHOULD BE IN THE BASEBALL HALL OF FAME!That is all. ALONGSIDE LUIS TIANT!
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Post by Guidas on Jun 27, 2023 9:08:38 GMT -5
I'd like to interrupt the "Great Depression" discussion for a moment here to say one thing: DWIGHT EVANS SHOULD BE IN THE BASEBALL HALL OF FAME!That is all. ALONGSIDE LUIS TIANT! Always and forever yes.
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Post by freddysthefuture2003 on Jun 27, 2023 9:58:10 GMT -5
Cushman doesn’t know ball Cushman is a goddamn idiot that doesn't know basic things about baseball. He didn't even follow the Red Sox until after the 2008 world series, and he's like 40. He has no understanding of the Red Sox system, how the draft works, or damn near any other aspect of baseball. Hell, he didn't even know who Shane Drohan was until May.
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Post by incandenza on Jun 27, 2023 9:59:47 GMT -5
Im sorry but i flat out disagree here. You think we are in the “great depression” of red sox baseball as Dan thinks? I have no skin in the Boston media fights. And “great depression” might be strong in the long history. But in my lifetime, since the 80s, this is the least I’ve enjoyed the Sox. It is to the point that I might not renew my mlb.com subscription next year — my interest has waned. I have zero investment in most of the roster. I’m here for Raffy, Casas, a couple of pitchers. Duran. That is really it, I think. The only way I can make sense of this perspective is by viewing the team as having set an incredibly high bar for charisma and accomplishment from 2003-2018. David Ortiz, Pedro Martinez, Dustin Pedroia, and Mookie Betts... I mean, that is a foursome so incredibly likable that I am hard-pressed to imagine anything comparable on any sports team over a similar stretch of time. And then add in some amazing supporting characters like Manny Ramirez, Xander Bogaerts, the sundry Idiots of the Oughts...
Now they merely have Rafael Devers as an organizational mainstay; a few very, rather than cosmically, charismatic supporting characters like Verdugo and Sale; a number of exciting young guys (Duran, Bello, Casas) who arguably haven't been around long enough for a strong emotional connection to have formed; and it's been two years since an impressive and Yankees-booting postseason run (but, alas, five whole years since their last World Series victory)...
When I look at that, I see a current era that is plainly better than, say, the whole decade pre-1998, which happened to be my first decade of fandom; and I think memories have to be pretty short to overlook how rough the run was from the collapse of 2011 through 2015, with only that 2013 World Series victory to allay the despair (admittedly, a major palliative, that). But I also see the current era as decidedly better than what the average fanbase endures through an average stretch of several seasons - and with enough in the way of young talent, prospects, and money to spend that the future looks considerably brighter than average.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Jun 27, 2023 10:22:29 GMT -5
I have no skin in the Boston media fights. And “great depression” might be strong in the long history. But in my lifetime, since the 80s, this is the least I’ve enjoyed the Sox. It is to the point that I might not renew my mlb.com subscription next year — my interest has waned. I have zero investment in most of the roster. I’m here for Raffy, Casas, a couple of pitchers. Duran. That is really it, I think. The only way I can make sense of this perspective is by viewing the team as having set an incredibly high bar for charisma and accomplishment from 2003-2018. David Ortiz, Pedro Martinez, Dustin Pedroia, and Mookie Betts... I mean, that is a foursome so incredibly likable that I am hard-pressed to imagine anything comparable on any sports team over a similar stretch of time. And then add in some amazing supporting characters like Manny Ramirez, Xander Bogaerts, the sundry Idiots of the Oughts...
Now they merely have Rafael Devers as an organizational mainstay; a few very, rather than cosmically, charismatic supporting characters like Verdugo and Sale; a number of exciting young guys (Duran, Bello, Casas) who arguably haven't been around long enough for a strong emotional connection to have formed; and it's been two years since an impressive and Yankees-booting postseason run (but, alas, five whole years since their last World Series victory)...
When I look at that, I see a current era that is plainly better than, say, the whole decade pre-1998, which happened to be my first decade of fandom; and I think memories have to be pretty short to overlook how rough the run was from the collapse of 2011 through 2015, with only that 2013 World Series victory to allay the despair (admittedly, a major palliative, that). But I also see the current era as decidedly better than what the average fanbase endures through an average stretch of several seasons - and with enough in the way of young talent, prospects, and money to spend that the future looks considerably brighter than average.
Between 2011 and 2015, though, the minors had X, Mookie, Devers… these were guys who were obviously major stars. That was pretty exciting. And, yeah, they won a WS. Hardly a bleak stretch. Basically there was the absolute catastrophe season with Valentine. But trainwrecks have a certain thrill, too. You rattled off the guys I named, basically, on the current roster. Sale is not charismatic, and even if he were, you can’t be exciting if you can’t play. Verdugo is… popular with other people on this board. I am not trying to make a scientific argument. It is subjective. I meant only to say that there is a kernel of truth to the “depression” argument, even if it was exaggerated. This team — for me and I’m sure others — just doesn’t generate much enthusiasm. I don’t see it changing for me, at least, until Mayer’s arrival. That will be something to get stoked for.
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Post by scottysmalls on Jun 27, 2023 10:32:10 GMT -5
The only way I can make sense of this perspective is by viewing the team as having set an incredibly high bar for charisma and accomplishment from 2003-2018. David Ortiz, Pedro Martinez, Dustin Pedroia, and Mookie Betts... I mean, that is a foursome so incredibly likable that I am hard-pressed to imagine anything comparable on any sports team over a similar stretch of time. And then add in some amazing supporting characters like Manny Ramirez, Xander Bogaerts, the sundry Idiots of the Oughts...
Now they merely have Rafael Devers as an organizational mainstay; a few very, rather than cosmically, charismatic supporting characters like Verdugo and Sale; a number of exciting young guys (Duran, Bello, Casas) who arguably haven't been around long enough for a strong emotional connection to have formed; and it's been two years since an impressive and Yankees-booting postseason run (but, alas, five whole years since their last World Series victory)...
When I look at that, I see a current era that is plainly better than, say, the whole decade pre-1998, which happened to be my first decade of fandom; and I think memories have to be pretty short to overlook how rough the run was from the collapse of 2011 through 2015, with only that 2013 World Series victory to allay the despair (admittedly, a major palliative, that). But I also see the current era as decidedly better than what the average fanbase endures through an average stretch of several seasons - and with enough in the way of young talent, prospects, and money to spend that the future looks considerably brighter than average.
Between 2011 and 2015, though, the minors had X, Mookie, Devers… these were guys who were obviously major stars. That was pretty exciting. And, yeah, they won a WS. Hardly a bleak stretch. Basically there was the absolute catastrophe season with Valentine. But trainwrecks have a certain thrill, too. You rattled off the guys I named, basically, on the current roster. Sale is not charismatic, and even if he were, you can’t be exciting if you can’t play. Verdugo is… popular with other people on this board. I am not trying to make a scientific argument. It is subjective. I meant only to say that there is a kernel of truth to the “depression” argument, even if it was exaggerated. This team — for me and I’m sure others — just doesn’t generate much enthusiasm. I don’t see it changing for me, at least, until Mayer’s arrival. That will be something to get stoked for. As far as the farm system goes: Mookie happened so fast that it's not like we were sitting there for long seeing him coming (BA never had him higher pre-season than the #75 prospect in baseball), Devers wasn't a big prospect until the 2015 season (he was #99 heading into that season). In any case, I would argue Mayer is pretty comparable now to Xander's prospect journey, and while no one will be Mookie, the rest of the farm I think is as exciting as it has been in a very long time. They haven't had guys with the potential of Mayer, Bleis, maybe even Anthony since Devers.
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Post by jmei on Jun 27, 2023 10:48:58 GMT -5
If you don't find Verdugo charismatic, you're not paying enough attention. (Either that or you're just holding a grudge against him for being in the Mookie trade.)
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Jun 27, 2023 10:51:43 GMT -5
Since you asked, and because i know it is of a high degree of importance to you, yes, the Dead and Company Show at Fenway was a lot of fun on Saturday night.Admittedly, the band plays way slower than their heyday, and the improvisational jams went on a tad bit long (at least for a few songs), but my seats in Pavilion 7, row 5, seat 3 were excellent and they were the barstool chairs with the pseudo bar, which came in very handy for the amount of beer i drank (i won't get into all the party favors...ha) Highlights...Brown-eyed woman, Terrapin, New Speedway Boogie, Casey Jones (ya better watch your speed). LOL. China Doll came as a real surprise. But now, we are back for the games and i must say, we need W's. After some fine Italian cuisine tonight, i will be sure to check in. Late. Oh you've been waiting a looong time for the Grateful Dead to intersect with your love of the Red Sox. Please...you have the floor! Thank you brother. I will try to be precise in saying. Fenway is my Mecca. The Dead (and iterations) are Jesus favorite band. Taking into account all those religious undertones, and with regard to daily good doses of both the Sox and the Dead, i would sum prefer to sum it up succinctly and in song. Just one thing that i gotta say.... I need a miracle everyday........
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2023 11:03:28 GMT -5
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Post by grandsalami on Jun 27, 2023 11:16:51 GMT -5
If you don't find Verdugo charismatic, you're not paying enough attention. (Either that or you're just holding a grudge against him for being in the Mookie trade.)
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Post by incandenza on Jun 27, 2023 11:17:05 GMT -5
The only way I can make sense of this perspective is by viewing the team as having set an incredibly high bar for charisma and accomplishment from 2003-2018. David Ortiz, Pedro Martinez, Dustin Pedroia, and Mookie Betts... I mean, that is a foursome so incredibly likable that I am hard-pressed to imagine anything comparable on any sports team over a similar stretch of time. And then add in some amazing supporting characters like Manny Ramirez, Xander Bogaerts, the sundry Idiots of the Oughts...
Now they merely have Rafael Devers as an organizational mainstay; a few very, rather than cosmically, charismatic supporting characters like Verdugo and Sale; a number of exciting young guys (Duran, Bello, Casas) who arguably haven't been around long enough for a strong emotional connection to have formed; and it's been two years since an impressive and Yankees-booting postseason run (but, alas, five whole years since their last World Series victory)...
When I look at that, I see a current era that is plainly better than, say, the whole decade pre-1998, which happened to be my first decade of fandom; and I think memories have to be pretty short to overlook how rough the run was from the collapse of 2011 through 2015, with only that 2013 World Series victory to allay the despair (admittedly, a major palliative, that). But I also see the current era as decidedly better than what the average fanbase endures through an average stretch of several seasons - and with enough in the way of young talent, prospects, and money to spend that the future looks considerably brighter than average.
Between 2011 and 2015, though, the minors had X, Mookie, Devers… these were guys who were obviously major stars. That was pretty exciting. And, yeah, they won a WS. Hardly a bleak stretch. Basically there was the absolute catastrophe season with Valentine. But trainwrecks have a certain thrill, too. You rattled off the guys I named, basically, on the current roster. Sale is not charismatic, and even if he were, you can’t be exciting if you can’t play. Verdugo is… popular with other people on this board. I am not trying to make a scientific argument. It is subjective. I meant only to say that there is a kernel of truth to the “depression” argument, even if it was exaggerated. This team — for me and I’m sure others — just doesn’t generate much enthusiasm. I don’t see it changing for me, at least, until Mayer’s arrival. That will be something to get stoked for. It is subjective, of course, but it's the frame of reference I'm drawing attention to. If this Red Sox team seems flat and lifeless to you, how would you feel about, say, the Twins? Giants? Mariners? Rangers?
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Jun 27, 2023 11:30:00 GMT -5
Just a quick note to remind us that Cushman is the leader of the self proclaimed “Bastards of Boston Baseball”, a group of perpetually angry “fans” which, when faced with a silver lining chooses to search for the darkest cloud; often reenforcing opinions with misinformation. CHB, wonderful wordsmith that he is, has become the gold standard for this.
Is it any wonder that one quotes the other?!?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 27, 2023 11:44:43 GMT -5
I have no skin in the Boston media fights. And “great depression” might be strong in the long history. But in my lifetime, since the 80s, this is the least I’ve enjoyed the Sox. It is to the point that I might not renew my mlb.com subscription next year — my interest has waned. I have zero investment in most of the roster. I’m here for Raffy, Casas, a couple of pitchers. Duran. That is really it, I think. The only way I can make sense of this perspective is by viewing the team as having set an incredibly high bar for charisma and accomplishment from 2003-2018. David Ortiz, Pedro Martinez, Dustin Pedroia, and Mookie Betts... I mean, that is a foursome so incredibly likable that I am hard-pressed to imagine anything comparable on any sports team over a similar stretch of time. And then add in some amazing supporting characters like Manny Ramirez, Xander Bogaerts, the sundry Idiots of the Oughts... Now they merely have Rafael Devers as an organizational mainstay; a few very, rather than cosmically, charismatic supporting characters like Verdugo and Sale; a number of exciting young guys (Duran, Bello, Casas) who arguably haven't been around long enough for a strong emotional connection to have formed; and it's been two years since an impressive and Yankees-booting postseason run (but, alas, five whole years since their last World Series victory)... When I look at that, I see a current era that is plainly better than, say, the whole decade pre-1998, which happened to be my first decade of fandom; and I think memories have to be pretty short to overlook how rough the run was from the collapse of 2011 through 2015, with only that 2013 World Series victory to allay the despair (admittedly, a major palliative, that). But I also see the current era as decidedly better than what the average fanbase endures through an average stretch of several seasons - and with enough in the way of young talent, prospects, and money to spend that the future looks considerably brighter than average.
The Butch Hobson managerial era was bleak. That 1994 strike prevented the Sox from losing 90 plus games. That team got off to a good start and then the reality of their sucktitude started happening and they were at 54-60 and in the process of bottoming out. That was the only good thing about the 1994 strike, not watching the Sox suck. Basically from the last two weeks of the 1991 season through 1997 the Sox were boring and awful, with one glaring exception, the 1995 team when Duquette pulled one rabbit out of a hat after another. That was a fun season, but that was it until Pedro arrived.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Jun 27, 2023 11:56:09 GMT -5
And not too long ago this board was waxing rhapsodic, or at least somewhat in harmony, about a future with players like Schreiber, Whitlock, Bello, Houck, Wink, Crawford, Murphy, Walter, Mata, Devers, Yoshida, Casas, Duran, the Hamiltons, Abreu, Valdez, Meyer, Rafaela, Bleis, Blaze added to Jansen, Martin, Verdugo, Wong, JT, Duvall, Refsnyder, Arroyo, Chang, Tapia; under the Cap, expiring contracts, much and many more.
Games are shorter, the pace is faster, the Sox are actually stealing bases, playing both small and long ball, the farm is percolating… in all more exciting.
We are not in a depression as much as a possible redux of the terrible 2022 luck (see Verdugo), personal struggles (see Devers), injuries (see Sale) and rookie adjustments (see Casas); which is admittedly pretty depressing.
Having witnessed the 1946 heartbreak (as a child in a fanatic family) and everything since, this is just a hiccup during a sometimes stupidly played evolutionary period, not a disaster. The ingredients are there for a bright future, which will also not be perfect.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Jun 27, 2023 12:07:04 GMT -5
I don't know if I remember such philosophical/historical posting in a thread about a series playing Miami before the first game is played.
Lots of interesting views/reading/food for thought. I'm serious - thanks for all of the contributions. Still jet lagged from a trip to Seattle to see family - ready for baseball again.
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Post by manfred on Jun 27, 2023 12:39:38 GMT -5
Between 2011 and 2015, though, the minors had X, Mookie, Devers… these were guys who were obviously major stars. That was pretty exciting. And, yeah, they won a WS. Hardly a bleak stretch. Basically there was the absolute catastrophe season with Valentine. But trainwrecks have a certain thrill, too. You rattled off the guys I named, basically, on the current roster. Sale is not charismatic, and even if he were, you can’t be exciting if you can’t play. Verdugo is… popular with other people on this board. I am not trying to make a scientific argument. It is subjective. I meant only to say that there is a kernel of truth to the “depression” argument, even if it was exaggerated. This team — for me and I’m sure others — just doesn’t generate much enthusiasm. I don’t see it changing for me, at least, until Mayer’s arrival. That will be something to get stoked for. It is subjective, of course, but it's the frame of reference I'm drawing attention to. If this Red Sox team seems flat and lifeless to you, how would you feel about, say, the Twins? Giants? Mariners? Rangers? Twins and Giants? Bad. Mariners? Frustrated but still a bit hopeful. Rangers? Psyched for this year, nervous about the future.
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Post by incandenza on Jun 27, 2023 12:52:20 GMT -5
It is subjective, of course, but it's the frame of reference I'm drawing attention to. If this Red Sox team seems flat and lifeless to you, how would you feel about, say, the Twins? Giants? Mariners? Rangers? Twins and Giants? Bad. Mariners? Frustrated but still a bit hopeful. Rangers? Psyched for this year, nervous about the future. My point was that you seem to lean a lot on the personality of the team. Which I totally respect. And I was saying that the 2003-2018 Red Sox set an impossibly high bar for 'personality.' I think the personality of the current team is fine, or pretty good even - their cornerstone, Devers, is a Tier 1 personality, and I personally have Casas and Verdugo there as well.
I look at those other teams I listed, and like, where are the charismatic personalities there, or the long-term home-grown talents? If your interest is waning for the current iteration of the Red Sox I don't think you'd make it long as a fan of most other teams.
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Post by Guidas on Jun 27, 2023 12:53:37 GMT -5
I have no skin in the Boston media fights. And “great depression” might be strong in the long history. But in my lifetime, since the 80s, this is the least I’ve enjoyed the Sox. It is to the point that I might not renew my mlb.com subscription next year — my interest has waned. I have zero investment in most of the roster. I’m here for Raffy, Casas, a couple of pitchers. Duran. That is really it, I think. The only way I can make sense of this perspective is by viewing the team as having set an incredibly high bar for charisma and accomplishment from 2003-2018. David Ortiz, Pedro Martinez, Dustin Pedroia, and Mookie Betts... I mean, that is a foursome so incredibly likable that I am hard-pressed to imagine anything comparable on any sports team over a similar stretch of time. And then add in some amazing supporting characters like Manny Ramirez, Xander Bogaerts, the sundry Idiots of the Oughts... Now they merely have Rafael Devers as an organizational mainstay; a few very, rather than cosmically, charismatic supporting characters like Verdugo and Sale; a number of exciting young guys (Duran, Bello, Casas) who arguably haven't been around long enough for a strong emotional connection to have formed; and it's been two years since an impressive and Yankees-booting postseason run (but, alas, five whole years since their last World Series victory)... When I look at that, I see a current era that is plainly better than, say, the whole decade pre-1998, which happened to be my first decade of fandom; and I think memories have to be pretty short to overlook how rough the run was from the collapse of 2011 through 2015, with only that 2013 World Series victory to allay the despair (admittedly, a major palliative, that). But I also see the current era as decidedly better than what the average fanbase endures through an average stretch of several seasons - and with enough in the way of young talent, prospects, and money to spend that the future looks considerably brighter than average.
This is the only part of this I dispute. We have some young talent, but it's not a lot. Excluding relievers, which come and go for every team every year, we have maybe one guy a year for the next 3 or so years, each one who looks to be an MLB average player or a little less. Realistically there's: 2022: Bello - who looks like he could be a legit #2 if he stays healthy. That's an impact player - and the only one of the group who could be a perennial All Star if it happens. 2023: Casas, and one could say Duran, though Duran has already used up some time and played out his rookie eligibility last year. He still has two option years left and becomes arb eligible in 2026 and right now looks like if he can continue adjusting he'll be a solid CF/LF. Casas has not been the All Star that some here predicted and he is still going through rookie struggles on both sides of the ball. 2024: Rafaela, who may get a glimpse this year if he tears up AAA from here to Sept 1. He could be a gold glove CF, but we'll have to wait to see if his approach gives him enough offensive value to be an everyday starter. 2025: Mayer and maybe Yorke. These guys are still two steps away and a lot can happen between then and now. We can also assume they will go through the same year-long (or more) rookie struggles that virtually all the top 100 prospects not named Carrol, De La Cruz, Henderson or Rutschman have endured. As for pitchers, Drohan may be up, but it remains to be seen if his stuff plays as a starter's arsenal in MLB. Those are nice pieces at controllable prices, but not one of them looks to be a perennial All Star. I can't see the addition of one of those guys a year, and maybe two in one year somewhere along the way. But with those guys rolling up, and these plug-in one-year guys rolling off, I still don't see this as much more than a 82-86 game winning team (or 78-74 game winning team if there are injuries to certain players) without major, star-level (or at least performing at star-level) free agent acquisitions. 84-86 games will not likely not you into the playoffs unless some very good luck bumps that up to 89-90 wins. And if The Plan™ is to try to make it as the last WC team, well that's a crap plan with a $240M annual budget. I guess some people are OK with that, but it's not the standard that's been set in the last 20 years, it guarantees middling to bottom performance in the AL East, and certainly doesn't fit the budget outlays of this team under the current ownership group. Maybe I'm missing something and three or more of the guys above are 60-level perennial All Stars. Aside from Bello - and that remains to be seen - I just don't see it.
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Post by incandenza on Jun 27, 2023 13:11:59 GMT -5
The only way I can make sense of this perspective is by viewing the team as having set an incredibly high bar for charisma and accomplishment from 2003-2018. David Ortiz, Pedro Martinez, Dustin Pedroia, and Mookie Betts... I mean, that is a foursome so incredibly likable that I am hard-pressed to imagine anything comparable on any sports team over a similar stretch of time. And then add in some amazing supporting characters like Manny Ramirez, Xander Bogaerts, the sundry Idiots of the Oughts... Now they merely have Rafael Devers as an organizational mainstay; a few very, rather than cosmically, charismatic supporting characters like Verdugo and Sale; a number of exciting young guys (Duran, Bello, Casas) who arguably haven't been around long enough for a strong emotional connection to have formed; and it's been two years since an impressive and Yankees-booting postseason run (but, alas, five whole years since their last World Series victory)... When I look at that, I see a current era that is plainly better than, say, the whole decade pre-1998, which happened to be my first decade of fandom; and I think memories have to be pretty short to overlook how rough the run was from the collapse of 2011 through 2015, with only that 2013 World Series victory to allay the despair (admittedly, a major palliative, that). But I also see the current era as decidedly better than what the average fanbase endures through an average stretch of several seasons - and with enough in the way of young talent, prospects, and money to spend that the future looks considerably brighter than average.
This is the only part of this I dispute. We have some young talent, but it's not a lot. Excluding relievers, which come and go for every team every year, we have maybe one guy a year for the next 3 or so years, each one who looks to be an MLB average player or a little less. Realistically there's: 2022: Bello - who looks like he could be a legit #2 if he stays healthy. That's an impact player - and the only one of the group who could be a perennial All Star if it happens. 2023: Casas, and one could say Duran, though Duran has already used up some time and played out his rookie eligibility last year. He still has two option years left and becomes arb eligible in 2026 and right now looks like if he can continue adjusting he'll be a solid CF/LF. Casas has not been the All Star that some here predicted and he is still going through rookie struggles on both sides of the ball. 2024: Rafaela, who may get a glimpse this year if he tears up AAA from here to Sept 1. He could be a gold glove CF, but we'll have to wait to see if his approach gives him enough offensive value to be an everyday starter. 2025: Mayer and maybe Yorke. These guys are still two steps away and a lot can happen between then and now. We can also assume they will go through the same year-long (or more) rookie struggles that virtually all the top 100 prospects not named Carrol, De La Cruz, Henderson or Rutschman have endured. As for pitchers, Drohan may be up, but it remains to be seen if his stuff plays as a starter's arsenal in MLB. Those are nice pieces at controllable prices, but not one of them looks to be a perennial All Star. I can't see the addition of one of those guys a year, and maybe two in one year somewhere along the way. But with those guys rolling up, and these plug-in one-year guys rolling off, I still don't see this as much more than a 82-86 game winning team (or 78-74 game winning team if there are injuries to certain players) without major, star-level (or at least performing at star-level) free agent acquisitions.
84-86 games will not likely not you into the playoffs unless some very good luck bumps that up to 89-90 wins. And if The Plan™ is to try to make it as the last WC team, well that's a crap plan with a $240M annual budget. I guess some people are OK with that, but it's not the standard that's been set in the last 20 years, it guarantees middling to bottom performance in the AL East, and certainly doesn't fit the budget outlays of this team under the current ownership group. Maybe I'm missing something and three or more of the guys above are 60-level perennial All Stars. Aside from Bello - and that remains to be seen - I just don't see it. This seems like it's recapitulating the same issue I was trying to get at with manfred: if this looks to you like an 82-86 win team for the indefinite future even before you factor in their ability to add star-level free agents, then that's by definition a better than average forecast. But it's true that it doesn't look too impressive if you compare to how the future looked in 2003 or 2016.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Jun 27, 2023 13:37:49 GMT -5
This is the only part of this I dispute. We have some young talent, but it's not a lot. Excluding relievers, which come and go for every team every year, we have maybe one guy a year for the next 3 or so years, each one who looks to be an MLB average player or a little less. Realistically there's: 2022: Bello - who looks like he could be a legit #2 if he stays healthy. That's an impact player - and the only one of the group who could be a perennial All Star if it happens. 2023: Casas, and one could say Duran, though Duran has already used up some time and played out his rookie eligibility last year. He still has two option years left and becomes arb eligible in 2026 and right now looks like if he can continue adjusting he'll be a solid CF/LF. Casas has not been the All Star that some here predicted and he is still going through rookie struggles on both sides of the ball. 2024: Rafaela, who may get a glimpse this year if he tears up AAA from here to Sept 1. He could be a gold glove CF, but we'll have to wait to see if his approach gives him enough offensive value to be an everyday starter. 2025: Mayer and maybe Yorke. These guys are still two steps away and a lot can happen between then and now. We can also assume they will go through the same year-long (or more) rookie struggles that virtually all the top 100 prospects not named Carrol, De La Cruz, Henderson or Rutschman have endured. As for pitchers, Drohan may be up, but it remains to be seen if his stuff plays as a starter's arsenal in MLB. Those are nice pieces at controllable prices, but not one of them looks to be a perennial All Star. I can't see the addition of one of those guys a year, and maybe two in one year somewhere along the way. But with those guys rolling up, and these plug-in one-year guys rolling off, I still don't see this as much more than a 82-86 game winning team (or 78-74 game winning team if there are injuries to certain players) without major, star-level (or at least performing at star-level) free agent acquisitions.
84-86 games will not likely not you into the playoffs unless some very good luck bumps that up to 89-90 wins. And if The Plan™ is to try to make it as the last WC team, well that's a crap plan with a $240M annual budget. I guess some people are OK with that, but it's not the standard that's been set in the last 20 years, it guarantees middling to bottom performance in the AL East, and certainly doesn't fit the budget outlays of this team under the current ownership group. Maybe I'm missing something and three or more of the guys above are 60-level perennial All Stars. Aside from Bello - and that remains to be seen - I just don't see it. This seems like it's recapitulating the same issue I was trying to get at with manfred: if this looks to you like an 82-86 win team for the indefinite future even before you factor in their ability to add star-level free agents, then that's by definition a better than average forecast. But it's true that it doesn't look too impressive if you compare to how the future looked in 2003 or 2016.
Serious question: where do you put the star-level free agents? You have Casas, Story, Mayer, Devers in the IF. Yoshida, Duran in the OF. I assume you resign Verdugo. And this not to mention a few OFers in the system. So there are certainly positions that could be better, but you’d have to replace an occupant.
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Post by dcb26 on Jun 27, 2023 13:47:11 GMT -5
This seems like it's recapitulating the same issue I was trying to get at with manfred: if this looks to you like an 82-86 win team for the indefinite future even before you factor in their ability to add star-level free agents, then that's by definition a better than average forecast. But it's true that it doesn't look too impressive if you compare to how the future looked in 2003 or 2016.
Serious question: where do you put the star-level free agents? You have Casas, Story, Mayer, Devers in the IF. Yoshida, Duran in the OF. I assume you resign Verdugo. And this not to mention a few OFers in the system. So there are certainly positions that could be better, but you’d have to replace an occupant. If the Red Sox' worst problem in the next few years is that they can't find a single spot on the roster that would be improved by a star FA, they won't have any problems at all
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