SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
cdj
Veteran
Posts: 14,147
|
Post by cdj on Sept 28, 2023 10:07:34 GMT -5
It’s crazy to me that Cora is even being considered for a promotion when his team quit on him in back to back years.
|
|
|
Post by incandenza on Sept 28, 2023 10:14:01 GMT -5
"It's how they did things before Moneyball" doesn't strike me as the strongest defense. I say it less as a reactionary "YEAHHH GET RID OF THOSE HARVARD COMPUTER NERDS" (which funnily enough, appears there might that sort of sentiment going on in NY - www.nj.com/yankees/2023/09/as-yankees-season-winds-down-massive-changes-are-coming-klapisch.html), and more as: there's more than just one model that can work. In the NBA you have Popovich as head coach but he's ultimately the main decision maker in that org. Kyle Shanahan is largely calling the shots for the 49ers even if John Lynch is technically the GM. The head coach being the Jefe can work. Now, whether Cora is the right guy - as much I love the dude - to basically make as your pre-eminent voice in the organization, even more so than a potential GM hire, is a very fair question! I don't know nothin 'bout no other sports, but it seems to me that baseball is very different in terms of the time horizons you have to take into consideration. The players a GM has to manage in the NFL, for instance, are basically just the guys on the NFL roster. Whereas a major league GM has to think about the entire development process and prospects who may be five years away from joining the major league team and so on. When Cora said at one point this season "you're judged by wins and losses, not the strength of your farm system," I said that he was just reflecting the manager's perspective: his job is, indeed, to win games, not to build up the farm system. But building the farm system is the GM's job! I think it would be untenable to give the major league manager authority over the whole organization in a Shanaham/Popovich sort of role.
|
|
|
Post by chaimtime on Sept 28, 2023 10:20:06 GMT -5
Any examples in baseball you can think of? Or approaching what you describe? Makes me think of AJ Hinch/Scott Servais "new school" front office to coaching pipeline but in reverse. I also wonder how much sway Joe Torre had when he was managing the Yankees. Would make more sense that Cashman has been uneven in his roster construction to win consistently without him. I mean in MLB you have multiple levels of a farm team that someone needs to manage that a head coach just isn't going to be able to - but just last year you had Dusty Baker overruling GM James Click for a Urquidy-Wilson Contreras trade: www.cubsinsider.com/2022/11/06/cubs-had-agreement-to-trade-willson-contreras-to-astros-dusty-baker-scuttled-deal/Houston went on to win the World Series - Dusty is still there and James Click isn't. I don't know that that's the most smooth and rational operation and worthy of emulation, but... it worked. Did it work, or did it just not get in the way? Urquidy is probably the worst player on the team and pitched 3 innings in the playoffs—all in the WS game where they got blown out by the Phillies. Say what you will about Contreras’s defense, but that Houston lineup would look a hell of a lot stronger if you swapped him in for Maldonado.
|
|
|
Post by julyanmorley on Sept 28, 2023 10:20:42 GMT -5
Cora's unique skillset are the relationships he has with people in baseball (different ones than an Ivy League nerd has), his understanding of player psychology, and possibly his willingness to be an ownership stooge. I don't think the John Henry is like Hell Yes, finally we found someone that will push for short sighted moves.
I am okay with him having a non top guy role in the front office.
|
|
|
Post by julyanmorley on Sept 28, 2023 10:25:50 GMT -5
Contreras is a knucklehead who the Cards regretted signing almost immediately for reasons that don't show up in the box score. Maybe they should have done the deal anyway, and the replacement Vazquez deal was a boner, but I think this example actually does show the value of a guy with tendrils all throughout baseball.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaydouble on Sept 28, 2023 10:30:54 GMT -5
It’s crazy to me that Cora is even being considered for a promotion when his team quit on him in back to back years. I'd argue that Cora was the first one to quit this year, so they're just following his leadership.
|
|
|
Post by asm19 on Sept 28, 2023 10:39:58 GMT -5
I say it less as a reactionary "YEAHHH GET RID OF THOSE HARVARD COMPUTER NERDS" (which funnily enough, appears there might that sort of sentiment going on in NY - www.nj.com/yankees/2023/09/as-yankees-season-winds-down-massive-changes-are-coming-klapisch.html), and more as: there's more than just one model that can work. In the NBA you have Popovich as head coach but he's ultimately the main decision maker in that org. Kyle Shanahan is largely calling the shots for the 49ers even if John Lynch is technically the GM. The head coach being the Jefe can work. Now, whether Cora is the right guy - as much I love the dude - to basically make as your pre-eminent voice in the organization, even more so than a potential GM hire, is a very fair question! I don't know nothin 'bout no other sports, but it seems to me that baseball is very different in terms of the time horizons you have to take into consideration. The players a GM has to manage in the NFL, for instance, are basically just the guys on the NFL roster. Whereas a major league GM has to think about the entire development process and prospects who may be five years away from joining the major league team and so on. When Cora said at one point this season "you're judged by wins and losses, not the strength of your farm system," I said that he was just reflecting the manager's perspective: his job is, indeed, to win games, not to build up the farm system. But building the farm system is the GM's job! I think it would be untenable to give the major league manager authority over the whole organization in a Shanaham/Popovich sort of role. I 100% agree with this. I should clarify and stress that the difference I envisioned in this hypothetical is less "manager is in charge of everything," and more: we are 1.5 game back of a playoff spot, the manager wants a new starting pitcher. Does the GM get to overrule him, or does he get back to him and say, "based on the prospects we are willing to trade, I can get you X, Y, or Z." Ultimately, I would prefer the President of Baseball Ops being that person given those long term objectives someone has to be in charge of you cite. But if Cora is in as manager, his style come mid-July is to go full 6 year old in a Toy Store to his GM, "Can I have a trade? Can I have a trade? Can I have a trade?..." and I'm not sure a partnership is going to work unless 1) you match that energy/style, 2) your job is basically to be the baseball Instacart guy to get Cora what he needs when you're not overseeing the rest of baseball ops. Whether that's a Cora issue or it was specific to Bloom's tenure (or a mix of both) I guess we'll find out.
|
|
|
Post by incandenza on Sept 28, 2023 10:51:22 GMT -5
I don't know nothin 'bout no other sports, but it seems to me that baseball is very different in terms of the time horizons you have to take into consideration. The players a GM has to manage in the NFL, for instance, are basically just the guys on the NFL roster. Whereas a major league GM has to think about the entire development process and prospects who may be five years away from joining the major league team and so on. When Cora said at one point this season "you're judged by wins and losses, not the strength of your farm system," I said that he was just reflecting the manager's perspective: his job is, indeed, to win games, not to build up the farm system. But building the farm system is the GM's job! I think it would be untenable to give the major league manager authority over the whole organization in a Shanaham/Popovich sort of role. I 100% agree with this. I should clarify and stress that the difference I envisioned in this hypothetical is less "manager is in charge of everything," and more: we are 1.5 game back of a playoff spot, the manager wants a new starting pitcher. Does the GM get to overrule him, or does he get back to him and say, "based on the prospects we are willing to trade, I can get you X, Y, or Z." Ultimately, I would prefer the President of Baseball Ops being that person given those long term objectives someone has to be in charge of you cite. But if Cora is in as manager, his style come mid-July is to go full 6 year old in a Toy Store to his GM, "Can I have a trade? Can I have a trade? Can I have a trade?..." and I'm not sure a partnership is going to work unless 1) you match that energy/style, 2) your job is basically to be the baseball Instacart guy to get Cora what he needs when you're not overseeing the rest of baseball ops. Whether that's a Cora issue or it was specific to Bloom's tenure (or a mix of both) I guess we'll find out. Apropos of this, on the NESN broadcast someone (maybe Speier?) was talking about Dombrowski's GMing style, and mentioned that he had the practice of going to his manager and saying "what do you need?" and then trying to get it. Maybe that's a model for a workable GM-manager partnership.
On the other hand, in light of this, should we read anything into the fact that Dombrowski did a pretty awful job in the post-2018 offseason - the only offseason in his tenure in which he had Cora as manager? Probably not...
|
|
|
Post by congusgambler33 on Sept 28, 2023 11:18:23 GMT -5
How many times in his postgame comments have we heard Cora say "This is what we have on the field" when a reporter asks a question (that is not discernible sans microphone). Sounds to me he is clearly not happy with what he has to play on the field. knowing this, it is very telling to me he had a hand in Chaim moving on.
I would like topoint out though that this team was very bad with fundamentals all year and that was not the fault of Bloom. Cora has that honor all to himself and his coaches. If he comes back in the same capacity will these problems be corrected automatically? I sincerely doubt it.
Ownership is swimming in a sea of doubt from the adoring masses which are dwindling.
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 28, 2023 11:19:29 GMT -5
Contreras is a knucklehead who the Cards regretted signing almost immediately for reasons that don't show up in the box score. Maybe they should have done the deal anyway, and the replacement Vazquez deal was a boner, but I think this example actually does show the value of a guy with tendrils all throughout baseball. If the Astros wanted to they could easily insert Diaz as the catcher, but I think Baker values Maldonado as highly as he does that he still wouldnt replace Maldinado with Diaz to maximize an already strong lineup. He must feel there's enough intangibles that can't be accurately measured for the impact Maldonado's catching has on the pitching staff. If he's not doing that with Diaz now he certainly wouldn't have done that Contreras last season.
|
|
|
Post by pappyman99 on Sept 28, 2023 11:33:14 GMT -5
Gotta love all the Cora attacks now, since you know bloom couldn’t have possibly been fired on merit…..
|
|
manfred
Veteran
Posts: 11,419
Member is Online
|
Post by manfred on Sept 28, 2023 11:36:06 GMT -5
Gotta love all the Cora attacks now, since you know bloom couldn’t have possibly been fired on merit….. Proven they at least *can* win: Theo Ben DD Tito Cora TBD — elsewhere… Bloom
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 28, 2023 11:51:33 GMT -5
Cora hasn't wrapped himself in glory either with some of his managerial moves, although I wonder how many moves he did where he felt he was short handed or he was picking among terrible options.
I hated that he played Kiké at SS as much as he did. I hated that his SS were severely limited. He had too many bullpen games and openers because he didnt have starting pitchers.
He should have partial blame on the lack of fundamentals, but he also had fundamentally flawed players at his disposal.
I dont think he managed above their talent level but I dont think he manages below their level either. The frustration was highly visible and he looked like a guy who has aged 10 years in the last 2.
I think it was clear that he and Bloom werent on the same page.
Cora's job is to win now while Bloom's was to keep them competitive (for 6 months, not 4) while building something sustainable in the near future.
So while those things are somewhat at odds there is interesting overlap.
The first one is obvious. The big league team is supposed to compete for a playoff spot, not be way the hell out by mid August - it's not like trying to be a 3rd wild card is like trying to shoot for the stars.
The other interesting thing was the report that Cora was getting involved for a lack of a better word within the organization, which sounds like he was getting into prospect evaluation, again for a lack of a better word. I do t think managers concern themselves much beyond the big league club but it sounds like Cora was getting more of a voice within the organization beyond just the big league club. Maybe that caused more friction. I'm sure more will come out as time goes on. I dont think this wind up as tight lipped as the Dombrowski firing was.
|
|
cdj
Veteran
Posts: 14,147
|
Post by cdj on Sept 28, 2023 12:16:15 GMT -5
Gotta love all the Cora attacks now, since you know bloom couldn’t have possibly been fired on merit….. Did the team not quit on him two years in a row or we just gonna pretend it didn’t happen? They certainly didn’t play like a group trying to protect his employment status. Two different player leadership groups the last two years too, so it’s not like they didn’t try some turnover. That’s concerning to me even before we start talking about actually PROMOTING the guy
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 28, 2023 12:18:14 GMT -5
Gotta love all the Cora attacks now, since you know bloom couldn’t have possibly been fired on merit….. Did the team not quit on him two years in a row or we just gonna pretend it didn’t happen? They certainly didn’t play like a group trying to protect his employment status Coincidentally right after the trade deadline which is subject to interpretation in multiple ways.
|
|
|
Post by congusgambler33 on Sept 28, 2023 12:46:01 GMT -5
there is no doubt that the "Do Damage" year was amazing and he pulled the right strings the whole year that elevated him to the superstar category. In 2021 he pulled a rabbit out a hat to almost get to the end. who would not think he was masterful in getting it done.
How quickly it came crashing down the last 2 years. Had to be friction between him and Bloom in someway. his comments after the game are in the whatever category and show no hope except to get the damn season over with and move on from there.
Cora has an innate baseball sense though as he can pinpoint certain pitches thrown in what inning and plays that are made in his postgame addresses. I admire him for that and was very hopeful that it would carry on into future games. somewhere there was a disconnect and my guess is it was Chaim. Not getting under the cap was a miserable mistake by Bloom and maybe that and the JBJ signing rankled Cora. I don't know, but the whole season seemed flawed right from the start.
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 28, 2023 14:17:16 GMT -5
Gotta love all the Cora attacks now, since you know bloom couldn’t have possibly been fired on merit….. Did the team not quit on him two years in a row or we just gonna pretend it didn’t happen? They certainly didn’t play like a group trying to protect his employment status. Two different player leadership groups the last two years too, so it’s not like they didn’t try some turnover. That’s concerning to me even before we start talking about actually PROMOTING the guy What specifically did they do to "quit on him"? Lose games? They're 6 games below .500. They were probably an 85-ish win team before the deadline and they stood pat while others got better. Is your contention that this team is an 85 or 90 win team with another manager? C'mon now. In September, Yoshida, Turner, Story, Wong, Verdugo, McGuire, Reyes and Duvall all have wRC+'s of 61 or lower. Of the 5 starters none have a HR/9 below 0.92. The bullpen other than Martin has gone sour. The suggestion is that a different manager would what, rah-rah these guys into trying harder?
|
|
|
Post by julyanmorley on Sept 28, 2023 14:48:30 GMT -5
Yeah I'm not a fan of saying this team has quit. I mean, there's a sensible level of "quitting" that everyone is on board with - playing the young guys, telling Chris Sale that maybe 91mph is good enough today, etc.
The players mostly have massive financial incentives to try their best. Maybe not Devers or Yoshida, but these guys have pride and it's not like they have anything better to do when they're in the batter's box than try and get a hit.
I'm gonna need more evidence than a losing streak, something like them skipping pre game hitter's meetings or something.
|
|
|
Post by stevedillard on Sept 28, 2023 14:54:21 GMT -5
What specifically did they do to "quit on him"? Lose games? They're 6 games below .500. They were probably an 85-ish win team before the deadline and they stood pat while others got better. In September, Yoshida, Turner, Story, Wong, Verdugo, McGuire, Reyes and Duvall all have wRC+'s of 61 or lower. Of the 5 starters none have a HR/9 below 0.92. The bullpen other than Martin has gone sour. These statements might lead me to question whether they were actually an 85 win team (merely reverting to mean), or the 74 win team I saw before the season. I guess it all turns on expectations. In my mind, Cora has performed sufficiently well considering the talent he was handed. If people are negative toward Cora, I guess they saw this as a 85 -90 win team. I look forward to a team where I can hate the manager because I expect something from them. (A close corollary to 'I don't blame Devers because he lacked protection around him')
|
|
cdj
Veteran
Posts: 14,147
|
Post by cdj on Sept 28, 2023 15:52:59 GMT -5
Did the team not quit on him two years in a row or we just gonna pretend it didn’t happen? They certainly didn’t play like a group trying to protect his employment status. Two different player leadership groups the last two years too, so it’s not like they didn’t try some turnover. That’s concerning to me even before we start talking about actually PROMOTING the guy What specifically did they do to "quit on him"? Lose games? They're 6 games below .500. They were probably an 85-ish win team before the deadline and they stood pat while others got better. Is your contention that this team is an 85 or 90 win team with another manager? C'mon now. In September, Yoshida, Turner, Story, Wong, Verdugo, McGuire, Reyes and Duvall all have wRC+'s of 61 or lower. Of the 5 starters none have a HR/9 below 0.92. The bullpen other than Martin has gone sour. The suggestion is that a different manager would what, rah-rah these guys into trying harder? They are 7-20 since the BearClaw disaster and they’ve scored a combined 4 runs over those 27 games, they are a completely dead team and this is the 2nd straight year this happened as the season winded down when they were in contention I think this team is better than a 7-20 team! They apparently don’t though because they quit. I do not understand how one can watch them and say they haven’t. They’re mailing in games. Twiddling their thumbs until the 9th inning of game 162, and they’ve done it for a month. That’s quitting! They just lost a series to the white Sox! My suggestion is I certainly wouldn’t promote the guy leading them! If they want to force the next guy to keep him on as manager for another year then so be it, but what on earth has this man done to deserve consideration for a promotion? Does he have nudes of John Henry?
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 28, 2023 16:44:27 GMT -5
What specifically did they do to "quit on him"? Lose games? They're 6 games below .500. They were probably an 85-ish win team before the deadline and they stood pat while others got better. Is your contention that this team is an 85 or 90 win team with another manager? C'mon now. In September, Yoshida, Turner, Story, Wong, Verdugo, McGuire, Reyes and Duvall all have wRC+'s of 61 or lower. Of the 5 starters none have a HR/9 below 0.92. The bullpen other than Martin has gone sour. The suggestion is that a different manager would what, rah-rah these guys into trying harder? They are 7-20 since the BearClaw disaster and they’ve scored a combined 4 runs over those 27 games, they are a completely dead team and this is the 2nd straight year this happened as the season winded down when they were in contention I think this team is better than a 7-20 team! They apparently don’t though because they quit. I do not understand how one can watch them and say they haven’t. They’re mailing in games. Twiddling their thumbs until the 9th inning of game 162, and they’ve done it for a month. That’s quitting! They just lost a series to the white Sox! My suggestion is I certainly wouldn’t promote the guy leading them! If they want to force the next guy to keep him on as manager for another year then so be it, but what on earth has this man done to deserve consideration for a promotion? Does he have nudes of John Henry? They are 7-20 since the game in which they had 2 relief pitchers available? Don't you think this is perhaps indicative of them not being, y'know, good? Think about it. Nick Pivetta is the clear no. 3 starter. We haven't even considered whether Crawford or Houck should be in the rotation. We're meanwhile talking about how they need to sign TWO starters for the top of the rotation next year. That's not a team in contention, I'm sorry. An MLB manager's job isn't to pump up the boys. This isn't high school JV. His job is to pull the right levers and put guys into positions to succeed. Is the implication that Cora, who has won a WS and managed them into the ALCS in 2021, has suddenly forgotten how to get baseball players to try in September? I mean c'mon now.
|
|
cdj
Veteran
Posts: 14,147
|
Post by cdj on Sept 28, 2023 17:05:38 GMT -5
They are 7-20 since the BearClaw disaster and they’ve scored a combined 4 runs over those 27 games, they are a completely dead team and this is the 2nd straight year this happened as the season winded down when they were in contention I think this team is better than a 7-20 team! They apparently don’t though because they quit. I do not understand how one can watch them and say they haven’t. They’re mailing in games. Twiddling their thumbs until the 9th inning of game 162, and they’ve done it for a month. That’s quitting! They just lost a series to the white Sox! My suggestion is I certainly wouldn’t promote the guy leading them! If they want to force the next guy to keep him on as manager for another year then so be it, but what on earth has this man done to deserve consideration for a promotion? Does he have nudes of John Henry? They are 7-20 since the game in which they had 2 relief pitchers available? Don't you think this is perhaps indicative of them not being, y'know, good? Think about it. Nick Pivetta is the clear no. 3 starter. We haven't even considered whether Crawford or Houck should be in the rotation. We're meanwhile talking about how they need to sign TWO starters for the top of the rotation next year. That's not a team in contention, I'm sorry. An MLB manager's job isn't to pump up the boys. This isn't high school JV. His job is to pull the right levers and put guys into positions to succeed. Is the implication that Cora, who has won a WS and managed them into the ALCS in 2021, has suddenly forgotten how to get baseball players to try in September? I mean c'mon now. The implication is that coaches have a shelf life in every sport. Claude Julien is a very good hockey coach but the Bruins tuned him out. They turn to Cassidy and boom, finals. Same core group of players. It has nothing to do with him being “rah rah” like a Jv baseball coach or not. Has nothing to do with him forgetting how to manage, even though imo he’s done dumb stuff this year. Sometimes the vibe needs to change On two separate seasons with two separate leadership groups the team has rolled over and died while being in contention. You said it yourself- his job is to pull the right levers. Do you think he’s done that? You seem to think this is a 70 win roster, I don’t. This should’ve been an 80-85 win team and they’re not going to get there because they rolled over and played dead And again, what has he done to earn a promotion? That was what I was saying in the first place.
|
|
|
Post by scottysmalls on Sept 28, 2023 17:11:18 GMT -5
Just to clarify my stance re; Cora - I really don't care if Cora is the manager or not, and I'm not blaming him for the team falling apart, my point about it is that so many candidates have the skills he purportedly brings to the table, some of them may be even better in-game, but more importantly the team should ensure that from the manager to the head of baseball ops the org is all rowing in the same direction.
|
|
cdj
Veteran
Posts: 14,147
|
Post by cdj on Sept 28, 2023 17:24:46 GMT -5
It’s just funny if you think about it “Here you have managed 2 straight last place teams, here are the keys to the entire castle and not just the car” Like what planet is this? Maybe he would turn out good in the role but imo he should be closer to getting fired than getting promoted, and that’s apparently not the case. I’d give him a chance but I would much prefer somebody with actual baseball ops experience. At least Brad’s teams were coached well when he moved up in the Celtics org. Idk how anybody can say that about these last couple of Sox teams. Keep him on as manager- sure, whatever. There probably aren’t gonna be much better options out there anyway. But a promotion? Cmonnn
|
|
|
Post by pappyman99 on Sept 28, 2023 18:42:32 GMT -5
My over under In the prediction thread was 74 or 74.5 and I got laughed at by pretty much everyone who defended over and over
I didn’t predict that based on the job Cora was going to do, but based off the roster Bloom constructed
If anything I think cora has done well with what he has had to work with the last 3 years
|
|
|