manfred
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Post by manfred on Sept 28, 2023 18:59:36 GMT -5
I think it is far more accurate to say they gave *out* than gave*up* — the bullpen hit a wall, players look exhausted and banged up. Casas is out. Turner is a bit gimpy. Story never got started. Etc. not a moral failing anywhere… just the rigors of 162 games (and roster issues).
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Sept 28, 2023 19:26:27 GMT -5
It's funny, Bobby V. complained about the roster he was given and he was shown the door. Cora makes the same complaint and Chaim is shown the door. Obviously there were many other extenuating circumstances around both firings but they both seemed to come to a head the same way...
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Sept 28, 2023 19:58:13 GMT -5
My over under In the prediction thread was 74 or 74.5 and I got laughed at by pretty much everyone who defended over and over I didn’t predict that based on the job Cora was going to do, but based off the roster Bloom constructed If anything I think cora has done well with what he has had to work with the last 3 years Ok so he did an ok job as the manager according to you because they’ll finish about where you expected. How on earth is that worthy of a promotion? Again, what over the last two years has made people think he deserves a promotion? It certainly isn’t because the last two teams were well-coached with strong fundamentals. It certainly isn’t because they played over their heads. He’s at best done a mediocre job and at worst done a bad job. It’s interesting to me that Cora gets more credit for 2021 from most than Bloom yet Bloom gets all the credit for 2022 and 2023. Kinda funny tbh
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Sept 28, 2023 20:00:14 GMT -5
My over under In the prediction thread was 74 or 74.5 and I got laughed at by pretty much everyone who defended over and over I didn’t predict that based on the job Cora was going to do, but based off the roster Bloom constructed If anything I think cora has done well with what he has had to work with the last 3 years Ok so he did an ok job as the manager according to you because they’ll finish about where you expected. How on earth is that worthy of a promotion? Again, what over the last two years has made people think he deserves to a promotion? It certainly isn’t because the last two teams were well-coached with strong fundamentals. It certainly isn’t because they played over their heads. Not sure what you're talking about. Are they promoting him to President of On-Field Baseball Management?
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Sept 28, 2023 20:01:33 GMT -5
Ok so he did an ok job as the manager according to you because they’ll finish about where you expected. How on earth is that worthy of a promotion? Again, what over the last two years has made people think he deserves to a promotion? It certainly isn’t because the last two teams were well-coached with strong fundamentals. It certainly isn’t because they played over their heads. Not sure what you're talking about. Are they promoting him to President of On-Field Baseball Management? When you go from manager of one team to President of Baseball Operations throughout the entire organization it’s a promotion! And I bet it would come with a raise too! What exactly would you call it, a lateral move? A demotion? I mean as president of baseball ops you’re responsible for the manager. Are we gonna act like that’s a lateral move from the manager gig now? Cmonnn
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Sept 28, 2023 20:06:02 GMT -5
Not sure what you're talking about. Are they promoting him to President of On-Field Baseball Management? When you go from manager of one team to President of Baseball Operations throughout the entire organization it’s a promotion! And I bet it would come with a raise too! What exactly would you call it, a lateral move? A demotion? I mean as president of baseball ops you’re responsible for the manager. Are we gonna act like that’s a lateral move now? He's not going to be PBO. He's the field manager. What makes you think he's going to be the former?
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Post by bloomstaxonomy on Sept 28, 2023 20:07:14 GMT -5
Is old friend Ruben Amaro Jr. available? He's another guy who tried to go from front office to coaching. I remember how bizarre and unexpected it was. That would be hilarious.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Sept 28, 2023 20:08:23 GMT -5
I think it is far more accurate to say they gave *out* than gave*up* — the bullpen hit a wall, players look exhausted and banged up. Casas is out. Turner is a bit gimpy. Story never got started. Etc. not a moral failing anywhere… just the rigors of 162 games (and roster issues). “The players looks exhausted” is something every team can say at this point. It’s a long season. 4 guys had 500 at bats. Only 2 played over 140 games. Nobody over 150. That’s not a real excuse. There is no reason the offense should be this impotent, especially with somebody like Wilyer coming up and raking. I wouldn’t call it a moral failing as there is no repercussions from losing at this point but they gave up long ago. At-bat quality is in the toilet over the last month+ Braves have 7 guys over 500 AB and an 8th gonna cross it. Edit: he crossed it. They don’t look exhausted!
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Post by rhswanzey on Sept 28, 2023 20:25:37 GMT -5
The vigorous buy/sell trade deadline discussions sure look different now.
I don’t understand accusing the team/AC/both of quitting, but not crediting them for what they did in July. Maybe it’s more that they stayed in contention longer than they probably should have been able to, than the team crashing and burning.
The bullpen threw an atrocious number of innings to keep the team within arm’s reach of a playoff spot headed into the trade deadline. The team needed some average or even below average bulk inning help weeks before standing pat at the deadline. MLB isn’t sim engine baseball. The arms don’t just reset to “normal” after a midseason run like that and then a couple of days off. There are consequences for using the bullets we “save for October” in June and July.
Did we already forget about Connor Wong playing that absurd number of days in a row when McGuire was out? AC trusted C Hamilton so little that he brought in Wong to catch the 9th against the Twins on one of his only breaks for several straight weeks. He’s not trying to give you good at bats in September? You fried him to stay in the mix, what did you think was going to happen.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Sept 28, 2023 20:30:14 GMT -5
The pitching may be burnt out but they haven’t even been the issue of late! They’re not the ones acting burnt out! The bats gave up. I do not understand how people can watch them and say they haven’t! And I said all this before I checked in on how tonight went, that’s the funny part!
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Post by rhswanzey on Sept 28, 2023 20:31:43 GMT -5
By the way, even though there weren’t openers in 2022, isn’t this basically the same situation both seasons? Team brings in a ton of injury prone pitching help and at one point has Nick Pivetta and four rookies starting. Pivetta throws 7-9 innings - a lot - in June and July, and has basically nothing left the last couple months. Short starts expose awful low lev relief.
I get that we’re complaining about the offense now, but all I’ve heard since Bloom was fired is how we have to go spend $300-$400mil on pitching, because god forbid we put a guy who can actually make 32 starts and throw five innings in the damn rotation. Crazy idea: have you considered doing both those things.
EDIT: *lol*, sorry I thought I was in the game thread. Long week.
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Post by rhswanzey on Sept 28, 2023 20:32:44 GMT -5
The pitching may be burnt out but they haven’t even been the issue of late! They’re not the ones acting burnt out! The bats gave up. Were they actually a top 5 offense? Are some of them totally fried? No, yes
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Sept 28, 2023 20:34:11 GMT -5
The pitching may be burnt out but they haven’t even been the issue of late! They’re not the ones acting burnt out! The bats gave up. Were they actually a top 5 offense? Are some of them totally fried? No, yes They should be a very good offense. There’s no excuse against that.
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Sept 28, 2023 21:00:10 GMT -5
Were they actually a top 5 offense? Are some of them totally fried? No, yes They should be a very good offense. There’s no excuse against that. I agree with @rhswansea on Wong. It's well documented that Yoshida is cooked from playing way more LF than he did in Japan, more long-distance travel (which they don't have there), and a longer season. Turner has been playing on a peg leg for almost the whole season. Duvall is the definition of the streaky hitter and he has sucked out loud lately. Casas is out. Ditto the revitalized Duran.
Bobby Daaaalbec is a 4-A player. Luis Urias was a .150 hitter when he arrived. 2023 surprise Reyes was hurt for a while.
Rafaela, Valdez, and Abreu are just breaking in. Raffy was hot for a bit and so was Story.
Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, I don't know what Verdugo's excuse is.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Sept 28, 2023 21:02:09 GMT -5
They should be a very good offense. There’s no excuse against that. I agree with @rhswansea on Wong. It's well documented that Yoshida is cooked from playing way more LF than he did in Japan, more long-distance travel (which they don't have there), and a longer season. Turner has been playing on a peg leg for almost the whole season. Duvall is the definition of the streaky hitter and he has sucked out loud lately. Casas is out. Ditto the revitalized Duran.
Bobby Daaaalbec is a 4-A player. Luis Urias was a .150 hitter when he arrived. 2023 surprise Reyes was hurt for a while.
Rafaela, Valdez, and Abreu are just breaking in. Raffy was hot for a bit and so was Story.
Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, I don't know what Verdugo's excuse is.
It’s very coincidental that they were a good offense and then when the dagger game happened they became one of the worst offenses
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Sept 28, 2023 21:10:27 GMT -5
I agree with @rhswansea on Wong. It's well documented that Yoshida is cooked from playing way more LF than he did in Japan, more long-distance travel (which they don't have there), and a longer season. Turner has been playing on a peg leg for almost the whole season. Duvall is the definition of the streaky hitter and he has sucked out loud lately. Casas is out. Ditto the revitalized Duran.
Bobby Daaaalbec is a 4-A player. Luis Urias was a .150 hitter when he arrived. 2023 surprise Reyes was hurt for a while.
Rafaela, Valdez, and Abreu are just breaking in. Raffy was hot for a bit and so was Story.
Other than that Mrs. Lincoln, I don't know what Verdugo's excuse is.
It’s very coincidental that they were a good offense and then when the dagger game happened they became one of the worst offenses There's something I think we can agree on!
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Sept 28, 2023 21:55:16 GMT -5
When you go from manager of one team to President of Baseball Operations throughout the entire organization it’s a promotion! And I bet it would come with a raise too! What exactly would you call it, a lateral move? A demotion? I mean as president of baseball ops you’re responsible for the manager. Are we gonna act like that’s a lateral move now? He's not going to be PBO. He's the field manager. What makes you think he's going to be the former? There’s certainly been speculation
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Post by Smittyw on Oct 5, 2023 11:44:07 GMT -5
(Pasting to a more appropriate thread) No comment I don't consider myself either a Dombrowski hater or a Bloom stan, but I wonder how differently the former would be perceived here if Henry hadn't fired him immediately after 2019, but instead gave him the opportunity to save his neck by getting back under the CBT. Chaim got to navigate the aftermath of Dombrowski's decisions in his final year here and wear the messy consequences (for which it's clear a lot of people never forgave him), while Dave skated and retained his "guy with the magic touch" mystique.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Oct 5, 2023 12:34:16 GMT -5
(Pasting to a more appropriate thread) No comment I don't consider myself either a Dombrowski hater or a Bloom stan, but I wonder how differently the former would be perceived here if Henry hadn't fired him immediately after 2019, but instead gave him the opportunity to save his neck by getting back under the CBT. Chaim got to navigate the aftermath of Dombrowski's decisions in his final year here and wear the messy consequences (for which it's clear a lot of people never forgave him), while Dave skated and retained his "guy with the magic touch" mystique. Or he succeeds and *is* the guy with the magic touch?
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Post by pedroelgrande on Oct 5, 2023 12:35:32 GMT -5
Dombrowski the one that got away the Red Sox will never be the same. Sad times.
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kman22
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Post by kman22 on Oct 5, 2023 12:41:13 GMT -5
Interesting that he has built all of these great teams and then shortly thereafter seen his departure. Maybe a coincidence.
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Post by fenwaydouble on Oct 5, 2023 12:45:59 GMT -5
People look at Dombrowski as the guy who won three division championships. But his more impressive accomplishment is taking the greatest collection of young talent in franchise history and reducing it to a three-year window.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 5, 2023 12:53:24 GMT -5
(Pasting to a more appropriate thread) I don't consider myself either a Dombrowski hater or a Bloom stan, but I wonder how differently the former would be perceived here if Henry hadn't fired him immediately after 2019, but instead gave him the opportunity to save his neck by getting back under the CBT. Chaim got to navigate the aftermath of Dombrowski's decisions in his final year here and wear the messy consequences (for which it's clear a lot of people never forgave him), while Dave skated and retained his "guy with the magic touch" mystique. Or he succeeds and *is* the guy with the magic touch? True, there's a possibility the Sox would have done better with Dombrowski still around. The only disagreement I have with what Tomase wrote in the sentence posted above is that I dont feel that he built the core of the 16-17-18 Sox, but he correctly finished off the team, not dissimilar to how Dan Duquette built the core of the 04 Sox and the masterfully completed the puzzle. Everything else he wrote in that sentence was accurate, though, so I dont understand the eye rolling. He had a hand in building the 94 Expos although it should be noted he dealt 26 year old Randy Johnson away, he did build the Marlins and rebuilt them into the core that eventually won in 03 and it cant be disputed that the Tigers have been brutally bad since the 90s and that the only extended time the Tigers didnt suck was from 2006 - 2014. This will tick off people here who only like modern ivy leaguers as their chief decision maker, but when it comes to GMs, Schuerholz and Gillick are on the HOF, and deservedly so. Eventually Theo will get in. And I think of today's GMs, Andrew Friedman is compiling a HOF resume, but I think eventually Dombrowski will get ample consideration. Would Dombrowski have kept the Sox competitive while keeping the best parts of a farm going? We'll never know. Maybe, maybe not, but based on his track record I wouldnt rule it out.
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Post by incandenza on Oct 5, 2023 12:59:29 GMT -5
(Pasting to a more appropriate thread) I don't consider myself either a Dombrowski hater or a Bloom stan, but I wonder how differently the former would be perceived here if Henry hadn't fired him immediately after 2019, but instead gave him the opportunity to save his neck by getting back under the CBT. Chaim got to navigate the aftermath of Dombrowski's decisions in his final year here and wear the messy consequences (for which it's clear a lot of people never forgave him), while Dave skated and retained his "guy with the magic touch" mystique. Or he succeeds and *is* the guy with the magic touch? Not to rekindle any old arguments, but just out of curiosity: what's your theory for why Dombrowski got fired? Not whether you think it was right or not, but just, why did ownership decide to make that move? (Which was, at the time, considerably more shocking than the Bloom firing, as I recall.)
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Post by scottysmalls on Oct 5, 2023 13:03:35 GMT -5
dombrowski tenure with the Red Sox verbal meme (dombrowski as thanos (this joke has probably been made here already)):
q: did you get what you wanted? a: yes q: what did it cost? a: everything
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