SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
|
Post by grandsalami on Sept 14, 2023 12:44:33 GMT -5
Jared seems to think (starting at 3:15, that Bloom did not have a good reputation around the league with other GM's and agents)
|
|
|
Post by scottysmalls on Sept 14, 2023 12:44:37 GMT -5
Honestly though, are we just going to go in this cycle forever? Hire new GM to go for it, trade all prospects, sign big contracts, good for three years, fade, fire GM, hire new GM to rebuild. What if on the next up-cycle they don't win a World Series?
|
|
nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,888
|
Post by nomar on Sept 14, 2023 12:44:41 GMT -5
Cora should be fired, not hired into the front office. Hopefully Buster Olney stays true and is wrong
|
|
|
Post by Montana Lemonious-Craig on Sept 14, 2023 12:46:14 GMT -5
Cora should be fired, not hired into the front office. Hopefully Buster Olney stays true and is wrong Buster has been talking out of his ass for the past 15 years
|
|
|
Post by awalkinthepark on Sept 14, 2023 12:46:51 GMT -5
It depends on how you define 'better', I would much rather have a team be the worst team in baseball for 2 years and then be competitive, then to be stuck in perpetual mediocrity like the Sox have been. But this is what Bloom chose. The way you get the most out of trades is sacrificing the present for gains in the future (or vice versa). Bloom never did that, he never sacrificed the present, which means he also wasn't investing in the future as much as he should have. Now to your point, I agree this was probably more on ownership than on Bloom, but it is still frustrating to see him have one foot in the present by never doing a full rebuild, but also one foot in the future by trading Mookie and refusing to deal away prospects. The result of this is a .500 team year after year because you never picked a window to invest in.Yes, literally "year after year" in the sense that it's been two years. And at least last year was ridiculously snakebitten with bad pitching health. How many fanbases would kill to have that be their nadir?
And yeah, if ownership finds this unacceptable then they should've taken your advice and just torn it all down (but when? in 2020? 2022?) instead of charging Bloom with building a consistent competitor with all that dead money and a dead farm system from day 1.
But Bloom and co didn't *plan* on these last 2 years being the nadir though! That is the point - the low point of a team should be planned on, by the team, and used to improve the future. Bloom and the FO didn't do that at all - in fact they thought they were going to compete these last few years. Understanding when you are going to be competitive so you know when to buy and when you aren't going to be competitive and when to sell is incredibly important. In the alternative universe where Bloom used these last 2 years to restock the farm instead of trying to compete, the 2024 team is better. But he never made those improvements.
|
|
|
Post by lostinnewjersey on Sept 14, 2023 12:47:16 GMT -5
I'm surprised -- thought they would reward his adherence to what I thought was the philosophy. But who knows what has been going on behind the scenes? Maybe they don't like the way he cracks his knuckles or something.
I assume they did it now because they want to have the new person in place by the start of the offseason.
|
|
|
Post by dcsoxfan15 on Sept 14, 2023 12:48:07 GMT -5
Not really sure what Cora has shown in the last few years that would make anyone think he should be in the FO. Seems like most of his plaudits come from being a dirt dog and good at getting along with the players. Why do we want that in the FO? He let Hernandez decimate our defense for the entire first half of the season because he wanted to be kind to his veteran. Seriously?
|
|
|
Post by bluechip on Sept 14, 2023 12:48:41 GMT -5
The next baseball ops head will probably get success quickly. But his team is in good shape salary wise, and has a deep farm system. A Dave Dombroski type of GM could come in throwing money around and make some trades and build a short term winner, just like 2018. I hope the management chooses a path of building a sustainable winner, but I have my doubts that they will. This would be a horrible mistake, both philosophically, and because as much as the farm system is improving they are still not remotely close to having the amount of young talent they had ca. 2016. Totally agree. Just the philosophy seems to be reactionary. Cherington was critiqued for hoarding prospects. They fire him being in Dombroski who goes all in to build a winner quickly. He wins but also burns the farm system to the ground and saddles the franchise with numerous big contracts. They fire him and bring in a Bloom whose job it is to get under the luxury tax and build the farm system. They fire Bloom.
|
|
|
Post by ematz1423 on Sept 14, 2023 12:49:38 GMT -5
Jared seems to think (starting at 3:15, that Bloom did not have a good reputation around the league with other GM's and agents) This really wouldn't surprise me and if true is a definite ding against Bloom. He really hardly ever made trades, nothing of real impact anyway. I wonder if he was a prospect hoarder in trades and for outgoing players he asked for ridiculous packages and for incoming players wouldn't really step up to the plate in terms of offering real prospects. When it comes to agents, for FAs from what it seems he hasn't really been involved in the bidding at least by the end on most if not all the major FAs outside of Bogearts. If the conjecture is true on the Bogearts negotiations during ST last year there probably was a deal to be made that both sides could have felt good about and for better or worse he didn't offer that type of deal. Do we know any of this for sure? No, but it wouldn't surprise me either.
|
|
|
Post by julyanmorley on Sept 14, 2023 12:49:59 GMT -5
Don't like it, but realistically there's like 23 baseball ops teams all doing the exact same thing and the other 7 teams are the dumb ones. Just need to fade a bad hire now.
I pledge to not indulge much in Chaim Bloom arguments over the next decade. I would rather slam a hammer into my toes.
|
|
radiohix
Veteran
'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,389
|
Post by radiohix on Sept 14, 2023 12:50:30 GMT -5
Starting at 3:30, it’s interesting to me what Carrabis is saying about Chaim reputation around GMs and agents.
I read somewhere last year, that the price he was seeking for Eovaldi was exorbitant….Yeah, I think that last year’s trade deadline got him fired.
|
|
|
Post by Guidas on Sept 14, 2023 12:52:57 GMT -5
I speculatively wonder if ownership was expecting Bloom to develop a Tampa-esque pitching apparatus, or hope that he would be the next Andrew Friedman, and that just didn't happen. (Whether it might have with more time is a reasonable question.) But I get ownership being like, "we've given you more payroll than Tampa will ever have, why isn't the pitching good?" Wow. I had no idea it was this bad. Is that data accurate? Tampa's winning teams have been models of pitching and defense. In fact, their plan is that book The Extra 2% is all about buying run prevention because it can be done relatively cheaply. They always figure if they have that, they can patchwork enough offense to win the 3-2, 4-3 games and compile 90-95 wins every year.
|
|
|
Post by FenwayFanatic on Sept 14, 2023 12:53:01 GMT -5
The Lackey trade to the Cardinals was “buy and sell” too. Didn't they trade Lester to the As a few days after that, too, though? For Cespedes. Also buying and selling.
|
|
|
Post by Underwater Johnson on Sept 14, 2023 12:53:07 GMT -5
A few potential Red Sox candidates off the top of my head: James Click, Sig Mejdal (Orioles), Sam Fuld (Phillies), James Harris (Guardians), Ben Sestanovich (Braves). Eddie Romero
|
|
|
Post by incandenza on Sept 14, 2023 12:53:09 GMT -5
Jared seems to think (starting at 3:15, that Bloom did not have a good reputation around the league with other GM's and agents) I don't know, that's so close to saying "Bloom drives a hard bargain to the point that others are scared to negotiate with him," kind of like Boras' reputation; but since Bloom just got fired it's got a little stank on it.
|
|
|
Post by jerrygarciaparra on Sept 14, 2023 12:55:50 GMT -5
Why would anyone be shocked at this ? It was definitely a possibility. I feel bad for him, but it happens to everyone at some point in that chair.
On a side note, I hope the people around here who were so dismissive of people (like me) thinking this was something that was a real possibility, maybe even a necessity, take some some ownership of their ill advised dismissiveness.
|
|
|
Post by yuchangclan on Sept 14, 2023 12:56:09 GMT -5
I’m not at all surprised that he was fired. I’m just surprised they couldn’t wait a few weeks until the end of the season. That seems weird.
Also, I think Cora deserves to be axed more than Chaim does.
|
|
|
Post by Underwater Johnson on Sept 14, 2023 12:56:15 GMT -5
Jared seems to think (starting at 3:15, that Bloom did not have a good reputation around the league with other GM's and agents) I don't know, that's so close to saying "Bloom drives a hard bargain to the point that others are scared to negotiate with him," kind of like Boras' reputation; but since Bloom just got fired it's got a little stank on it. Aldo Ramirez?
|
|
|
Post by incandenza on Sept 14, 2023 12:56:26 GMT -5
Yes, literally "year after year" in the sense that it's been two years. And at least last year was ridiculously snakebitten with bad pitching health. How many fanbases would kill to have that be their nadir?
And yeah, if ownership finds this unacceptable then they should've taken your advice and just torn it all down (but when? in 2020? 2022?) instead of charging Bloom with building a consistent competitor with all that dead money and a dead farm system from day 1.
But Bloom and co didn't *plan* on these last 2 years being the nadir though! That is the point - the low point of a team should be planned on, by the team, and used to improve the future. Bloom and the FO didn't do that at all - in fact they thought they were going to compete these last few years. Understanding when you are going to be competitive so you know when to buy and when you aren't going to be competitive and when to sell is incredibly important. In the alternative universe where Bloom used these last 2 years to restock the farm instead of trying to compete, the 2024 team is better. But he never made those improvements.
That's fair to a point. But I think they basically went into both seasons with 85-win potential - much like they did in 2021 - and whereas things fell right for them in '21, things fell wrong for them last season and this (though we'll see where they end this season). They could've said "well, sneaking into a wild card spot isn't good enough so let's just not even try", either before the season or at the trade deadline, but I just don't care for that way of thinking. You should try to compete until all hope is lost.
|
|
|
Post by pk on Sept 14, 2023 12:56:58 GMT -5
Jared seems to think (starting at 3:15, that Bloom did not have a good reputation around the league with other GM's and agents) This really wouldn't surprise me and if true is a definite ding against Bloom. He really hardly ever made trades, nothing of real impact anyway. I wonder if he was a prospect hoarder in trades and for outgoing players he asked for ridiculous packages and for incoming players wouldn't really step up to the plate in terms of offering real prospects. When it comes to agents, for FAs from what it seems he hasn't really been involved in the bidding at least by the end on most if not all the major FAs outside of Bogearts. If the conjecture is true on the Bogearts negotiations during ST last year there probably was a deal to be made that both sides could have felt good about and for better or worse he didn't offer that type of deal. Do we know any of this for sure? No, but it wouldn't surprise me either. Willing to bet rival front offices expect lowball offers to start, so that doesn’t sound like the problem. It’s how he conducted negotiations, if this were true.
|
|
|
Post by kwodes on Sept 14, 2023 12:57:15 GMT -5
A few potential Red Sox candidates off the top of my head: James Click, Sig Mejdal (Orioles), Sam Fuld (Phillies), James Harris (Guardians), Ben Sestanovich (Braves). Eddie Romero too bad this wasn't done 2 weeks ago so they could hire Stearns
|
|
|
Post by incandenza on Sept 14, 2023 12:57:44 GMT -5
Not really sure what Cora has shown in the last few years that would make anyone think he should be in the FO. Seems like most of his plaudits come from being a dirt dog and good at getting along with the players. Why do we want that in the FO? He let Hernandez decimate our defense for the entire first half of the season because he wanted to be kind to his veteran. Seriously? It's the "I love lamp" of early speculation - people are just pointing at the nearest thing they can name.
|
|
|
Post by chaimtime on Sept 14, 2023 12:59:26 GMT -5
Many things led to this. One of them is shown on this page: The Red Sox were not allowed to sign normal IFAs in 2016-17. and had their top five signings from the previous year voided. Another is that their great-looking $3M top sign the next year, Daniel Flores, suddenly took sick and died. Those years should have produced 1-4 people the same age as or just older than Bello and Rafaela. Chaim actually got Wilyer Abreu, who was planning to sign with the Sox in 2016-17 before the punishment came down. www.soxprospects.com/international21.htm#2017Not to derail the thread, but I don’t think Dombrowski gets cut nearly enough slack for the IFA ban and Daniel Flores, who was basically Ethan Salas before Ethan Salas, developing pediatric cancer. Signing Sale and Eovaldi before Mookie was his biggest mistake by far. He certainly didn’t do anything to alleviate the strain it put on the system, but you can make a pretty good case for saying “well, the farm’s screwed anyway, might as well go all in.”
|
|
|
Post by incandenza on Sept 14, 2023 13:00:14 GMT -5
Starting at 3:30, it’s interesting to me what Carrabis is saying about Chaim reputation around GMs and agents. I read somewhere last year, that the price he was seeking for Eovaldi was exorbitant….Yeah, I think that last year’s trade deadline got him fired. Okay, but that's exactly the approach, at exactly that trade deadline, that got them Abreu and Valdez for Vazquez.
|
|
|
Post by Guidas on Sept 14, 2023 13:03:49 GMT -5
This is the hard part. Theo is too big for this job now and Andrew Friedman just signed an extension in 2022. So who else out there takes you to greatness? Oh, and whomever it is, he walked into a stocked farm, so almost like getting to be CEO of a company that has an average product but the equivalent of all of Apple's cash on hand. How much would it take to get Alex Anthopoulos and his Cheap Contract Voodoo Doctor? This isn't a bad idea, and guys get better, but he was uneven for several years with the Jays as I recall.
|
|
|