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Post by elp51 on Sept 14, 2023 12:28:41 GMT -5
This falls on ownership. I didn't like some of the moves Bloom made but he was given a mandate to cut salary and trade it's best player Mookie Betts. Bloom was also hired as an inexperienced general manager who was told to build the farm system up which by most accounts minus pitching he's done. The bottom line to the owners is Boston is a place which demands competing with LA, New York, in getting top players especially with the absurd ticket prices you demand from us. You want to run your operation like a mid-market team on a limited budget then drop the ticket prices. The fans in Boston demand excellence since you demand top money from us we demand winning and except it. Taking Mookie Betts to arbitration was the first sign the direction you were steering the Red Sox vessel. The garbage deals for used-up pitchers like Kluber, Wacha (though he did well), and Paxton was a sign you wanted to do business on the cheap. Yet ticket prices continued to rise. If you care about us the fans and about winning championships let's see it at the Winter Meetings. Warning to the owners and Mr. Kennedy you better not hire a GM who is going to trade the one thing Chaim Bloom helped to build up and that's the prospect pool. Then you would have wasted 4 years of rebuilding. Spend some money if you want to be with Atlanta, Los Angeles, Houston you need to be a big player. Also, the team's pitiful defense is an indictment on the manager as well. Alex Cora shouldn't escape this cleaning house process. I know a lot of people here in LA feel he shouldn't even be in baseball. Get fresh new faces since you have begun the process in the dugout as well. I am having a hard time thinking of a worse fielding team in Red Sox history. It seems like the organization has wanted to play like a mid-market team which won't work here. Always and forever, love my Boston Red Sox. Strange Days, when the Yankees and Red Sox play a doubleheader in September and nobody is talking about it. Strange Days to see so many empty seats at the best park in America between two bitter rivals which had to hit the owners in making this decision. Better Days ahead!
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Post by Guidas on Sept 14, 2023 12:29:27 GMT -5
OK, has Buster broken an actual story in the last 10 years? He throws scraps out like this all the time with zero evidence. He's basically become the equivalent of a highly paid Social Media Rando. Seems ripe for being replaced by AI, if he hasn't already.
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Post by incandenza on Sept 14, 2023 12:29:54 GMT -5
Oh man, I sure hate this! Apologies to Guidas: I genuinely did not expect this sort of mercurial fickleness from these owners, but you were right, they are stupider and more chaotic than I realized. Well, I hope the next GM has learned the proper lesson: absolutely do not, under any circumstances, pursue a patient approach to organization-building; you literally will not have time to succeed on these terms. I didn't want to be right about that one, but I've actually worked for two billionaires in my career and if the success points are hit according to their schedule (which may not be shared with everyone else), they have been know to wake up one day and say, "Fire up the gulf stream, I want to golf in the Bahamas this morning. Oh, and fire X and make sure the salmon with my salad is fresh caught for lunch." I was actually advocating for Chaim Bloom to get another year. I always saw him as average, but with prospects to trade, money to spend and being under the tax, he finally had an opportunity to show if he could be great or near great. I think somehow last year's trade deadline and maybe even this year's became his "Chris Sale signing." That is, the ownership said, "Fine, but we're big on outcomes, so it all better work." I regret believing a billionaire might be capable of good judgment. I will try not to make that mistake again.
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 3,972
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Post by jimoh on Sept 14, 2023 12:30:52 GMT -5
In the spirit of reminiscing my personal takes on: Worst Bloom moves: - JBJ as starting outfielder 2022 - Kiké as starting shortstop 2023- Barnes extension Best Bloom moves: - Vazquez trade - Workman trade - Whitlock - Duvall (I know this is connected to Kiké as shortstop) - Kiké 1st deal - Schwarber The trade for Mondesi did not work out too well. Is that a baseball judgment, a medical judgement, or just bad luck?
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Post by incandenza on Sept 14, 2023 12:31:06 GMT -5
As some are, I am certainly torn on the widsom or necessity of this move (so much of how Bloom operated as Pres of Baseball Ops was outside of public view, for good or ill). I will say that for all the concern about ownership scaring away candidates because of this, I really don't think it'll be a big deal. To paraphrase a point from Ryen Russillo about NFL teams and GM's, there are only 30 of these jobs in baseball. If I'm someone ambitious who wants to run a team, and the Red Sox call me, I pick up the phone. Having erratic and overbearing billionaires as my bosses is just part of the package almost no matter where you go. I'm not concerned about their ability to get someone to accept the job. I'm concerned about the calculations that person is going to make about how best to keep their job.
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Post by taiwansox on Sept 14, 2023 12:33:02 GMT -5
In the spirit of reminiscing my personal takes on: Worst Bloom moves: - JBJ as starting outfielder 2022 - Kiké as starting shortstop 2023 - Barnes extension Best Bloom moves: - Vazquez trade - Workman trade - Whitlock - Duvall (I know this is connected to Kiké as shortstop) - Kiké 1st deal - Schwarber Yeah that JBJ trade is the underrated culprit of bringing them over the luxury tax threshold more than not trading JDM/Eovaldi. Binelas and Hamilton don’t look promising
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 14,020
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Post by cdj on Sept 14, 2023 12:33:11 GMT -5
This is incredibly concerning to me because it shows ownership continued complete inability to stick to a plan
The rollercoaster will continue
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Post by Guidas on Sept 14, 2023 12:33:52 GMT -5
With the MFY’s contracts such a burden and a last place team, Cashman might be available. I wonder… Corollary: the Yankees could hire Bloom and he could have a successful 20-year tenure in the Bronx. A scenario in which I very possibly quit my Red Sox fandom. Step...away...from the ledge. It'll be fine. (I hope)
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Sept 14, 2023 12:34:08 GMT -5
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Post by scottysmalls on Sept 14, 2023 12:34:23 GMT -5
A funny potential scenario: Yankees fire Brian Cashman, Red Sox hire him.
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Post by Guidas on Sept 14, 2023 12:35:41 GMT -5
BC did a real sell and met the same fate for an old, big-spender to come in and steal the glory. The truth is we used two fairly brilliant minds to get through tough times then disposed of them as the tides started to turn. I’m sure Bloom will land on his feet as BC did, but I think the pattern is pretty clear with this ownership now. The Lackey trade to the Cardinals was “buy and sell” too. Didn't they trade Lester to the As a few days after that, too, though?
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Post by kingofthetrill on Sept 14, 2023 12:36:53 GMT -5
If some of these specifically bad hypothetical situations happen, can we ban the user that spoke them into existence?
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Post by ematz1423 on Sept 14, 2023 12:37:06 GMT -5
I'm going to use the deals that were actually made at the deadline as a barometer to what "deals that were there to be made" for Bloom. Who that was traded would have made any sort of difference post deadline? They need pitching most of all I'd say, Flaherty has been bad, Lorenzen has been bad, Scherzer is hurt, Verlander wasn't coming to Boston. That leaves us with Aaron Civale who yes he could have helped both the So this season and has some team control left beyond this year. So Bloom partly was fired for not trading for Aaron Civale? Sure if the ownership came to him and said we want you to bolster the team at the deadline and he sat around and obviously didn't then yea I get it but I really just fail to see any deal they could have made that would have changed any trajectory of the 2023 Red Sox.
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Post by chr31ter on Sept 14, 2023 12:37:22 GMT -5
A funny potential scenario: Yankees fire Brian Cashman, Red Sox hire him. I'm not sure I'd classify that as "funny".
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Post by cmax on Sept 14, 2023 12:37:42 GMT -5
Ah, really disappointed to hear this news. Obviously the MLB results are not where they need to be this year but you could feel things coming together for the next few years as well as across the farm system. I genuinely hope Bloom does not go to the Yankees. Wishing Bloom well but hopefully far outside the AL East.
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Post by majikthise on Sept 14, 2023 12:38:18 GMT -5
I am stunned, actually. But, if history is judge, I can expect many folks who have defended him to start kicking him now that he’s gone. Nah. I still believe in what he was trying to accomplish, but it just didn't come together fast enough to save his job. I hope the next guy doesn't blow up the farm again.
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Post by bluechip on Sept 14, 2023 12:39:12 GMT -5
The next baseball ops head will probably get success quickly. But his team is in good shape salary wise, and has a deep farm system. A Dave Dombroski type of GM could come in throwing money around and make some trades and build a short term winner, just like 2018. I hope the management chooses a path of building a sustainable winner, but I have my doubts that they will.
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Post by ematz1423 on Sept 14, 2023 12:39:29 GMT -5
In the spirit of reminiscing my personal takes on: Worst Bloom moves: - JBJ as starting outfielder 2022 - Kiké as starting shortstop 2023- Barnes extension Best Bloom moves: - Vazquez trade - Workman trade - Whitlock - Duvall (I know this is connected to Kiké as shortstop) - Kiké 1st deal - Schwarber The trade for Mondesi did not work out too well. Is that a baseball judgment, a medical judgement, or just bad luck? The Mondesi trade was basically a complete wash, they traded Josh Taylor who did nothing this year either. It was basically a net of nothing on that trade. I guess you can say sure it didn't work but it didn't really have any negative either.
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Post by incandenza on Sept 14, 2023 12:40:01 GMT -5
In the spirit of reminiscing my personal takes on: Worst Bloom moves: - JBJ as starting outfielder 2022 - Kiké as starting shortstop 2023 - Barnes extension Best Bloom moves: - Vazquez trade - Workman trade - Whitlock - Duvall (I know this is connected to Kiké as shortstop) - Kiké 1st deal - Schwarber Yeah that JBJ trade is the underrated culprit of bringing them over the luxury tax threshold more than not trading JDM/Eovaldi. Binelas and Hamilton don’t look promising I also think they didn't care much about going over because they expected to re-sign both Bogaerts and Eovaldi so the draft compensation wouldn't matter anyway. If so, that was obviously a miscalculation.
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Post by Montana Lemonious-Craig on Sept 14, 2023 12:41:03 GMT -5
The Lackey trade to the Cardinals was “buy and sell” too. Didn't they trade Lester to the As a few days after that, too, though? Yep. For Yoenis Cespedes straight up, with no prospects. Really thankful they were able to flip him for Porcello and turn that one into a positive
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Post by dcsoxfan15 on Sept 14, 2023 12:41:18 GMT -5
Honestly, I think this is a shameful move. Bloom was brought in and told to trade Mookie Betts if he would not sign a deal. He did that. He rebuilt the farm system, he got the team to the ALCS one year, and restructured the books to allow for a deep run in the next half decade to a decade. Using him as a scapegoat now feels disgusting, and the ownership should be ashamed of themselves.
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Post by retiredvendor on Sept 14, 2023 12:41:37 GMT -5
I’m surprised and disappointed by this news, though I should not really be surprised at all. Henry has a habit of charting a course and then reversing himself when things get unpopular (letting Theo walk, foreswearing big contracts like the one Lester was looking for, bringing in Valentine for a cultural change, building the farm under Cheriington, hiring DD to go all out on spending, etc). As other have said, it seems clear that Bloom was hired to cut spending (“baseball players are expensive”) and to take the heat by trading Betts. Chaim was very methodical in his moves, probably too much so to keep ahead of this market. But I truly think he was doing what he was hired to do- build a more sustainable, lower cost club. It just wasn’t working at the MLB level and Henry does not have the patience or stamina to take the backlash any further.
Bloom had some very good moves around the margins of the roster. He just did not add the necessary star power to compete in this town and this division.
I like the guy and think he’s exceptionally bright. I wish him well. I wish the next guy/girl more luck, as Henry seems to be a tough one to work for.
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Post by incandenza on Sept 14, 2023 12:42:50 GMT -5
The next baseball ops head will probably get success quickly. But his team is in good shape salary wise, and has a deep farm system. A Dave Dombroski type of GM could come in throwing money around and make some trades and build a short term winner, just like 2018. I hope the management chooses a path of building a sustainable winner, but I have my doubts that they will. This would be a horrible mistake, both philosophically, and because as much as the farm system is improving they are still not remotely close to having the amount of young talent they had ca. 2016.
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Post by dcsoxfan15 on Sept 14, 2023 12:44:12 GMT -5
This seems like a hysterical reaction, if you’ll indulge an antiquated and gendered term. The brief when he was hired was a sustainable contender. Before each of the last two years, he said the team would be good. Spoiler: they were not. Now maybe they are having a chuckle behind the scenes, but if he is genuine, that is a disastrous miscalculation. They are currently in last. So it is possible they’ll be in last 3/4 years. Even I, who think Bloom pretty much sucked overall, think this is shocking. But “chaotic”? Do people around baseball think being a bad team is something a GM can survive in Boston for long? How is this more “chaotic” than firing DD one year out of the best season in team history? My guess is people know full well the stakes in Boston are very, very high. ThEy'Re In LaSt PlAcE!! Oh no, and it's the third year out of four! And all context for that is totally irrelevant!!!
Sorry, yes, I am in the midst of an emotional reaction. Catch me in a few days when I have settled down. For now my view is that ownership sucks and my long-term hopes for the franchise have just plummeted and I am pissed off.
Mind you, none of this is because I thought Bloom was an unparalleled genius or untouchable or anything like that. It's... well, the stuff I've already said in this thread.
And yes I will add that in retrospect this does make the Dombrowski firing look more chaotic and reactionary than my interpretation had been, so I'm revising on that as well.
I actually find this move far more chaotic and reactionary. DD got fired because his incredibly expensive, aging, juggernaut of a team was a .500 team and wouldn't be improving anytime soon. He handed out several awful contracts and had gutted the farm, leaving absolutely no future for the team, but a crap-ton of money to be paid.
Chaim Bloom's worst was behind him, he had taken out the contracts, rebuilt the farm and suffered mediocrity to do it. He was set up this off-season to make moves, either by trade or free agency and lock up our young stars. Seems he was fired over inaction at the deadline this year in a year where, realistically, we weren't winning anything. Shameful.
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Post by Guidas on Sept 14, 2023 12:44:32 GMT -5
I didn't want to be right about that one, but I've actually worked for two billionaires in my career and if the success points are hit according to their schedule (which may not be shared with everyone else), they have been know to wake up one day and say, "Fire up the gulf stream, I want to golf in the Bahamas this morning. Oh, and fire X and make sure the salmon with my salad is fresh caught for lunch." I was actually advocating for Chaim Bloom to get another year. I always saw him as average, but with prospects to trade, money to spend and being under the tax, he finally had an opportunity to show if he could be great or near great. I think somehow last year's trade deadline and maybe even this year's became his "Chris Sale signing." That is, the ownership said, "Fine, but we're big on outcomes, so it all better work." I regret believing a billionaire might be capable of good judgment. I will try not to make that mistake again. Depends on the billionaire, but, I mean look at them. Most who made their own wealth (as opposed to being born into it) are extremely smart in at least one sector, high energy, exceptionally shrewd, arch opportunists, and most of them are very, very impatient. That's how they got rich. But they are often subject to bubble-think and the bubble's hubris (if not their own). That, and they live in a world where if they want a change on a grand scale, they have the ability to make it immediately.
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