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Post by grandsalami on Sept 14, 2023 12:16:56 GMT -5
A few potential Red Sox candidates off the top of my head: James Click, Sig Mejdal (Orioles), Sam Fuld (Phillies), James Harris (Guardians), Ben Sestanovich (Braves).
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Post by Foulke_In_Athol on Sept 14, 2023 12:16:59 GMT -5
Now, I know the answer to this, but I'll ask the group just to stir the pot.
Any chance Theo being seen and pictured in Boston riding the T means he was here to sneek in the back door to sack Chaim and take his job back Viking style?
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Post by scottysmalls on Sept 14, 2023 12:17:04 GMT -5
Well I think it's the wrong move but I don't think the PR of it is unfathomable, even if it's not what I want them to optimize for.
I hope they bring in someone even better. I also hope whoever they do bring in send Bloom a bouquet of roses for leaving such an enviable situation to him.
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Post by incandenza on Sept 14, 2023 12:17:23 GMT -5
My extremely short answer - Bloom made too many mistakes and did a fair number of good things, but not getting under the cap at the 2022 deadline was the one truly fireable offense. Even if they weren't going to get much for JD Martinez and whoever else they could've moved, it would've been a solid $1 million extra in the 2023 draft bonus pool. As far as briam's question about Bloom's best moves, it was the Workman and Vazquez trades and the Whitlock pick in the Rule 5. If only they'd lost those two games against the Brewers in late July 2022. A butterfly flaps its wings...
(Also I don't think that was remotely a fireable offense, though Bloom did have a bad run in the 2021-22 offseason.)
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Post by notstarboard on Sept 14, 2023 12:18:32 GMT -5
I will literally commit seppuku Meh, he can't be any worse at ops than he is as managing a pitching staff. I don't think it'd be the worst move provided they bring someone else in with more experience to pair him with. He's looked tired the last two years and he has in the past said there was a time limit on how long he wants to manage. If the Sox believe in his evaluation talent this is a natural progression for him. I would think the natural progression for someone of his talents would be getting fired at the end of the season and starting his retirement, but what do I know. I don't think he should have been hired in the first place.
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Post by kingofthetrill on Sept 14, 2023 12:18:52 GMT -5
I've been checked out for a while and switched to football lightning fast, but I don't think Bloom deserved this. I'm generally meh on him but I feel like he got a lot of unwarranted and misguided criticism on here. Unless he was the reason why we haven't sold and tanked around the deadline the past few years like we should have in which case he should have been canned and rehired just to be canned again.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Sept 14, 2023 12:19:18 GMT -5
I really, really, really hope they don't force their next manager to just be stuck with a manager he doesn't want just because. Again, we need to stop setting our organization up to fail. If Cora's philosophy doesn't go well together with the next GM, we should let the next GM pick the coach. Cora only has one year left on his deal. They could also fire him during the season so I don’t think this is a big deal at all.
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Post by stevedillard on Sept 14, 2023 12:19:28 GMT -5
I expect Cora to manage next year too. Mets?
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Sept 14, 2023 12:19:39 GMT -5
I thought they'd extend him honestly. Wow. This is a good day for the major league club but a bad day for the minor league squads.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Sept 14, 2023 12:20:29 GMT -5
Yes, partly a scapegoat. But scapegoats sometimes work. They often "work" as intended. But that is not something we should celebrate.
To be honest, this seems so transparently chaotic that I don't even know if it'll work as intended; ownership looks awful, and this looks like a dysfunctional franchise.
This seems like a hysterical reaction, if you’ll indulge an antiquated and gendered term. The brief when he was hired was a sustainable contender. Before each of the last two years, he said the team would be good. Spoiler: they were not. Now maybe they are having a chuckle behind the scenes, but if he is genuine, that is a disastrous miscalculation. They are currently in last. So it is possible they’ll be in last 3/4 years. Even I, who think Bloom pretty much sucked overall, think this is shocking. But “chaotic”? Do people around baseball think being a bad team is something a GM can survive in Boston for long? How is this more “chaotic” than firing DD one year out of the best season in team history? My guess is people know full well the stakes in Boston are very, very high.
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Post by scottysmalls on Sept 14, 2023 12:21:34 GMT -5
In the spirit of reminiscing my personal takes on:
Worst Bloom moves: - JBJ as starting outfielder 2022 - Kiké as starting shortstop 2023 - Barnes extension
Best Bloom moves: - Vazquez trade - Workman trade - Whitlock - Duvall (I know this is connected to Kiké as shortstop) - Kiké 1st deal - Schwarber
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Post by incandenza on Sept 14, 2023 12:21:39 GMT -5
Ownership clearly charged him with *not* doing a full rebuild. If he had his job would have been a whole lot easier!
And we are talking about two seasons in which the team has been roughly .500. If this is the down period thaks to the bottoming out of the farm system, well, what teams have had better down periods than that?
It depends on how you define 'better', I would much rather have a team be the worst team in baseball for 2 years and then be competitive, then to be stuck in perpetual mediocrity like the Sox have been. But this is what Bloom chose. The way you get the most out of trades is sacrificing the present for gains in the future (or vice versa). Bloom never did that, he never sacrificed the present, which means he also wasn't investing in the future as much as he should have. Now to your point, I agree this was probably more on ownership than on Bloom, but it is still frustrating to see him have one foot in the present by never doing a full rebuild, but also one foot in the future by trading Mookie and refusing to deal away prospects. The result of this is a .500 team year after year because you never picked a window to invest in.Yes, literally "year after year" in the sense that it's been two years. And at least last year was ridiculously snakebitten with bad pitching health. How many fanbases would kill to have that be their nadir?
And yeah, if ownership finds this unacceptable then they should've taken your advice and just torn it all down (but when? in 2020? 2022?) instead of charging Bloom with building a consistent competitor with all that dead money and a dead farm system from day 1.
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sportshubby
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yup that is my twitter handle
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Post by sportshubby on Sept 14, 2023 12:22:01 GMT -5
I respect the hell out of Chaim for the impossible job he undertook. Getting under the tax line last year was one strike, and not finding a way to help this team at the deadline when they were knocking on the door of the playoffs was another. I'm sure folks can name a 3rd strike, but this has been expected for sometime. Just hope he doesn't go to the yankees.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Sept 14, 2023 12:22:09 GMT -5
Many things led to this. One of them is shown on this page: The Red Sox were not allowed to sign normal IFAs in 2016-17. and had their top five signings from the previous year voided. Another is that their great-looking $3M top sign the next year, Daniel Flores, suddenly took sick and died. Those years should have produced 1-4 people the same age as or just older than Bello and Rafaela. Chaim actually got Wilyer Abreu, who was planning to sign with the Sox in 2016-17 before the punishment came down. www.soxprospects.com/international21.htm#2017
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Post by Guidas on Sept 14, 2023 12:22:19 GMT -5
Oh man, I sure hate this! Apologies to Guidas: I genuinely did not expect this sort of mercurial fickleness from these owners, but you were right, they are stupider and more chaotic than I realized. Well, I hope the next GM has learned the proper lesson: absolutely do not, under any circumstances, pursue a patient approach to organization-building; you literally will not have time to succeed on these terms. I didn't want to be right about that one, but I've actually worked for two billionaires in my career and if the success points are hit according to their schedule (which may not be shared with everyone else), they have been know to wake up one day and say, "Fire up the gulf stream, I want to golf in the Bahamas this morning. Oh, and fire X and make sure the salmon with my salad is fresh caught for lunch." I was actually advocating for Chaim Bloom to get another year. I always saw him as average, but with prospects to trade, money to spend and being under the tax, he finally had an opportunity to show if he could be great or near great. I think somehow last year's trade deadline and maybe even this year's became his "Chris Sale signing." That is, the ownership said, "Fine, but we're big on outcomes, so it all better work."
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Post by Foulke_In_Athol on Sept 14, 2023 12:23:06 GMT -5
I said at the begining of this season, that begining the year without a solid "SS" was a fire able offense, but as the season went on I thought Chaim had a very good year. So I changed my mind, now I don't know how I should feel. I'm kind of Agnostic about it.
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Post by chaimtime on Sept 14, 2023 12:23:33 GMT -5
A few potential Red Sox candidates off the top of my head: James Click, Sig Mejdal (Orioles), Sam Fuld (Phillies), James Harris (Guardians), Ben Sestanovich (Braves). So Blogger PeteAbe is weighing in here rather than Reporter PeteAbe?
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Post by grandsalami on Sept 14, 2023 12:25:05 GMT -5
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Post by chr31ter on Sept 14, 2023 12:25:13 GMT -5
I really, really, really hope they don't force their next manager to just be stuck with a manager he doesn't want just because. Again, we need to stop setting our organization up to fail. If Cora's philosophy doesn't go well together with the next GM, we should let the next GM pick the coach. Agreed. Bring someone in to run things, and then... let them run things. Don't tell Chaim Bloom that he's got to keep all of Dave Dombrowski's people, and don't tell the next CBO that he's got to keep Alex Cora around.
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Post by Guidas on Sept 14, 2023 12:25:38 GMT -5
Will reserve judgement until I see who the replacement is. I wonder who the realistic candidates are. This is the hard part. Theo is too big for this job now and Andrew Friedman just signed an extension in 2022. So who else out there takes you to greatness? Oh, and whomever it is, he walked into a stocked farm, so almost like getting to be CEO of a company that has an average product but the equivalent of all of Apple's cash on hand.
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Post by notstarboard on Sept 14, 2023 12:26:19 GMT -5
They often "work" as intended. But that is not something we should celebrate.
To be honest, this seems so transparently chaotic that I don't even know if it'll work as intended; ownership looks awful, and this looks like a dysfunctional franchise.
This seems like a hysterical reaction, if you’ll indulge an antiquated and gendered term. The brief when he was hired was a sustainable contender. Before each of the last two years, he said the team would be good. Spoiler: they were not. Now maybe they are having a chuckle behind the scenes, but if he is genuine, that is a disastrous miscalculation. They are currently in last. So it is possible they’ll be in last 3/4 years. Even I, who think Bloom pretty much sucked overall, think this is shocking. But “chaotic”? Do people around baseball think being a bad team is something a GM can survive in Boston for long? How is this more “chaotic” than firing DD one year out of the best season in team history? My guess is people know full well the stakes in Boston are very, very high. Has any GM in the history of GMdom ever said they think their team is going to be terrible or even mediocre, even if they know it to be true?
High stakes should not equal short-sighted. On the contrary, it should make playing the long game even more important. And this is not just you, but I am getting triggered - please stop with the disingenous "last place" stuff. Will we next laud the mighty Minnesota Twins on their first place finish?
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Post by taiwansox on Sept 14, 2023 12:26:45 GMT -5
I think overall Bloom didn’t make many mistakes and took limited risk. It’s like running a fund, you can avoid risk and make limited returns and eventually you’re going to get fired.
One question is whether people internally felt like he wasn’t a good executive. Clearly has a great analytical mind but perhaps they viewed him as indecisive with trades/signings. Part of running any organization is making bold decisions along the way.
Looking at his big signings, there aren’t any real disasters, but not looking great early on.
Yoshida - solid but not a great fit on the team given their defensive woes (would be a better signing in different context) Story - defense provides a floor, but his offensive trajectory going into his contract was mostly downward similar to Sandoval (declining OPS over 5 years) Kluber - took up payroll and was a disaster Jansen - again solid, but a team with so many holes, $16M for a closer isn’t great
This still doesn’t solve our organizational issue of not being able to acquire/develop pitching…
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Post by incandenza on Sept 14, 2023 12:27:50 GMT -5
They often "work" as intended. But that is not something we should celebrate.
To be honest, this seems so transparently chaotic that I don't even know if it'll work as intended; ownership looks awful, and this looks like a dysfunctional franchise.
This seems like a hysterical reaction, if you’ll indulge an antiquated and gendered term. The brief when he was hired was a sustainable contender. Before each of the last two years, he said the team would be good. Spoiler: they were not. Now maybe they are having a chuckle behind the scenes, but if he is genuine, that is a disastrous miscalculation. They are currently in last. So it is possible they’ll be in last 3/4 years. Even I, who think Bloom pretty much sucked overall, think this is shocking. But “chaotic”? Do people around baseball think being a bad team is something a GM can survive in Boston for long? How is this more “chaotic” than firing DD one year out of the best season in team history? My guess is people know full well the stakes in Boston are very, very high. ThEy'Re In LaSt PlAcE!! Oh no, and it's the third year out of four! And all context for that is totally irrelevant!!!
Sorry, yes, I am in the midst of an emotional reaction. Catch me in a few days when I have settled down. For now my view is that ownership sucks and my long-term hopes for the franchise have just plummeted and I am pissed off.
Mind you, none of this is because I thought Bloom was an unparalleled genius or untouchable or anything like that. It's... well, the stuff I've already said in this thread.
And yes I will add that in retrospect this does make the Dombrowski firing look more chaotic and reactionary than my interpretation had been, so I'm revising on that as well.
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Post by asm19 on Sept 14, 2023 12:27:56 GMT -5
As some are, I am certainly torn on the widsom or necessity of this move (so much of how Bloom operated as Pres of Baseball Ops was outside of public view, for good or ill).
I will say that for all the concern about ownership scaring away candidates because of this, I really don't think it'll be a big deal. To paraphrase a point from Ryen Russillo about NFL teams and GM's, there are only 30 of these jobs in baseball. If I'm someone ambitious who wants to run a team, and the Red Sox call me, I pick up the phone. Having erratic and overbearing billionaires as my bosses is just part of the package almost no matter where you go.
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Post by scottysmalls on Sept 14, 2023 12:27:57 GMT -5
Will reserve judgement until I see who the replacement is. I wonder who the realistic candidates are. This is the hard part. Theo is too big for this job now and Andrew Friedman just signed an extension in 2022. So who else out there takes you to greatness? Oh, and whomever it is, he walked into a stocked farm, so almost like getting to be CEO of a company that has an average product but the equivalent of all of Apple's cash on hand. How much would it take to get Alex Anthopoulos and his Cheap Contract Voodoo Doctor?
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