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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Sept 14, 2023 12:02:32 GMT -5
Sox are going to be good in the coming years because of the work Bloom did. Cold world. Going to be very disappointed if they go away from the “sustainable” approach with this hire I mean, we're all watching Bello and Casas succeed and the rap on DD is still that he did nothing to build homegrown talent. Baseball is cruel this way. To build homegrown talent you need to allow them to grow, so while no one will dispute that talented players were acquired under DD, the problem is he traded almost all of them away. Now granted he won a World Series doing that so life could be worse, I'm not vilifying him for it, just trying to explain the nuance of the argument as I think you're slightly misinterpreting it.
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Post by greekgodofpancakes on Sept 14, 2023 12:03:54 GMT -5
Good luck, Chaim. My general feeling of his tenure was, meh... He had a job to do, get under the luxury tax threshold and build back the farm system. He did that, but could have done it better, IMO, with a sell off last year (or even this year). Would it have made a major difference? IDK, but look at the prospects he got for Vazquez! On the other hand, look at the prospects he got for Kiké! Meh is as Meh does! As has been said before, we need an approach similar to do the Dodgers where we build with our farm system and let the low priced buys allow us to fill major holes in the free agent/trade market. Having one 4 times in 20 years, I was OK with letting the process unfold. Ownership continues to show their bipolar approach. Let the off season begin!
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Post by notstarboard on Sept 14, 2023 12:04:01 GMT -5
I’m genuinely curious, why are some folks so upset by this move. Is it for continuity sake or did you think Bloom legitimately did a good job? The last two years for me leave me with little faith in him building a contending MLB club, all his best qualities seem to be drafting and not trading prospects, which won’t really change if the rest of the org structure is left in place. He misread two deadlines, went into the tax for a team finishing last in the AL East, and is on the verge of finishing under .500 again. In other words, what was the move by Chaim that made you say “I’m glad we have him over your baseline GM” We think he legitimately did a good job, but you already knew that.
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Post by terriblehondo on Sept 14, 2023 12:04:58 GMT -5
Not a Bloom fanboy. But I had argued he should get the last year on his contract. Personally I did not like how he built teams.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Sept 14, 2023 12:05:01 GMT -5
The comments section traffic on The Athletic is going to be off the charts today
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jimoh
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Posts: 3,972
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Post by jimoh on Sept 14, 2023 12:05:10 GMT -5
Scapegoat. I’m beyond pissed at this ownership group Yes, partly a scapegoat. But scapegoats sometimes work.
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Post by soxfan06 on Sept 14, 2023 12:05:56 GMT -5
Not a Bloom fanboy. But I had argued he should get the last year on his contract. Personally I did not like how he built teams. Well I think that was part of the Chaim experience. He was really good at prospect evaluation IMO and very mediocre at pro evaluation.
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Post by incandenza on Sept 14, 2023 12:06:21 GMT -5
I mean, we're all watching Bello and Casas succeed and the rap on DD is still that he did nothing to build homegrown talent. Baseball is cruel this way. To build homegrown talent you need to allow them to grow, so while no one will dispute that talented players were acquired under DD, the problem is he traded almost all of them away. Now granted he won a World Series doing that so life could be worse, I'm not vilifying him for it, just trying to explain the nuance of the argument as I think you're slightly misinterpreting it. I'd be even more generous to DD and say the team did fine under him at adding players with the draft picks/IFA money he had; his sin was lacking any sort of long-term strategy, doing nothing to alleviate the gaping hole in the farm system that opened up on his watch, and simultaneously filling up the payroll with bloat in a way that handcuffed the team in a way that they're still trying to escape from.
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Post by James Dunne on Sept 14, 2023 12:08:02 GMT -5
My extremely short answer - Bloom made too many mistakes and did a fair number of good things, but not getting under the cap at the 2022 deadline was the one truly fireable offense. Even if they weren't going to get much for JD Martinez and whoever else they could've moved, it would've been a solid $1 million extra in the 2023 draft bonus pool.
As far as briam's question about Bloom's best moves, it was the Workman and Vazquez trades and the Whitlock pick in the Rule 5.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Sept 14, 2023 12:08:06 GMT -5
If Cora is the Brad Stevens of baseball I'd be thrilled. I just think that transition is hard to make and while I like Stevens, still hasn't won with an elite roster.
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Post by notstarboard on Sept 14, 2023 12:08:15 GMT -5
I will literally commit seppuku
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Post by soxfan06 on Sept 14, 2023 12:08:26 GMT -5
To build homegrown talent you need to allow them to grow, so while no one will dispute that talented players were acquired under DD, the problem is he traded almost all of them away. Now granted he won a World Series doing that so life could be worse, I'm not vilifying him for it, just trying to explain the nuance of the argument as I think you're slightly misinterpreting it. I'd be even more generous to DD and say the team did fine under him at adding players with the draft picks/IFA money he had; his sin was lacking any sort of long-term strategy, doing nothing to alleviate the gaping hole in the farm system that opened up on his watch, and simultaneously filling up the payroll with bloat in a way that handcuffed the team in a way that they're still trying to escape from. What?!?!? That Chris Sale contract has been a steal!!
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Post by incandenza on Sept 14, 2023 12:08:41 GMT -5
Scapegoat. I’m beyond pissed at this ownership group Yes, partly a scapegoat. But scapegoats sometimes work. They often "work" as intended. But that is not something we should celebrate.
To be honest, this seems so transparently chaotic that I don't even know if it'll work as intended; ownership looks awful, and this looks like a dysfunctional franchise.
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Post by ephus on Sept 14, 2023 12:09:37 GMT -5
I mean, we're all watching Bello and Casas succeed and the rap on DD is still that he did nothing to build homegrown talent. Baseball is cruel this way. To build homegrown talent you need to allow them to grow, so while no one will dispute that talented players were acquired under DD, the problem is he traded almost all of them away. Now granted he won a World Series doing that so life could be worse, I'm not vilifying him for it, just trying to explain the nuance of the argument as I think you're slightly misinterpreting it. Depends on audience. Yes, here folks know. But nuance is not the stongpoint of talk radio and boston sports pages. Regardless. Forward march.
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Post by soxfan06 on Sept 14, 2023 12:09:57 GMT -5
Yes, partly a scapegoat. But scapegoats sometimes work. They often "work" as intended. But that is not something we should celebrate. To be honest, this seems so transparently chaotic that I don't even know if it'll work as intended; ownership looks awful, and this looks like a dysfunctional franchise.
We've been a disfunction franchise for a while. It's not just looks.
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Post by notstarboard on Sept 14, 2023 12:10:48 GMT -5
I have been and will always be a Bloom supporter, but a .500 team and last place finish in the 4th(!) season after the Mookie trade is just totally indefensible. This has been my criticism of him the entire time, he never just did a full rebuild. If you are going to trade Mookie, okay, fine, but just rip off the bandaid and do everything you can to restock the farm. Bloom never did that and so the team has operated in this middle ground the entire time he has been here. Ownership clearly charged him with *not* doing a full rebuild. If he had his job would have been a whole lot easier!
And we are talking about two seasons in which the team has been roughly .500. If this is the down period thaks to the bottoming out of the farm system, well, what teams have had better down periods than that?
Back into a tie for last place for literally one day and the "last place team" thing comes back lmao. I hope for my sanity that they finish in 4th.
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Post by asm19 on Sept 14, 2023 12:11:49 GMT -5
I speculatively wonder if ownership was expecting Bloom to develop a Tampa-esque pitching apparatus, or hope that he would be the next Andrew Friedman, and that just didn't happen. (Whether it might have with more time is a reasonable question.) But I get ownership being like, "we've given you more payroll than Tampa will ever have, why isn't the pitching good?"
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Post by pk on Sept 14, 2023 12:12:32 GMT -5
Not a Bloom fanboy. But I had argued he should get the last year on his contract. Personally I did not like how he built teams. Well I think that was part of the Chaim experience. He was really good at prospect evaluation IMO and very mediocre at pro evaluation. His free agents this year have been pretty good, IMO. Jansen, Martin, Duvall, Turner, and Yoshida. Most of the money he spent worked. Kluber was a terrible flame out, and the lefty in the pen was as well. He bungled some big tickets though - getting almost nothing for Xander, Eovaldi, etc, was far more of the concern with him.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 14,003
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Post by cdj on Sept 14, 2023 12:13:25 GMT -5
So that means he IS a candidate for one position?
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Post by incandenza on Sept 14, 2023 12:13:44 GMT -5
They often "work" as intended. But that is not something we should celebrate. To be honest, this seems so transparently chaotic that I don't even know if it'll work as intended; ownership looks awful, and this looks like a dysfunctional franchise.
We've been a disfunction franchise for a while. It's not just looks. Yep, I'm revising my views here. I thought we were well past the era of running Tito out of town and hiring Bobby Valentine and signing Pablo Sandoval because of the marketing opportunities. I guess that never ended after all.
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Post by incandenza on Sept 14, 2023 12:14:56 GMT -5
I speculatively wonder if ownership was expecting Bloom to develop a Tampa-esque pitching apparatus, or hope that he would be the next Andrew Friedman, and that just didn't happen. (Whether it might have with more time is a reasonable question.) But I get ownership being like, "we've given you more payroll than Tampa will ever have, why isn't the pitching good?" How much sophistry can you pack into one tweet using statistics alone?
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Sept 14, 2023 12:15:40 GMT -5
It will probably be its own separate thread eventually but I really like the idea of hiring from within.
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shagworthy
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My neckbeard game is on point.
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Post by shagworthy on Sept 14, 2023 12:15:54 GMT -5
I will literally commit seppuku Meh, he can't be any worse at ops than he is as managing a pitching staff. I don't think it'd be the worst move provided they bring someone else in with more experience to pair him with. He's looked tired the last two years and he has in the past said there was a time limit on how long he wants to manage. If the Sox believe in his evaluation talent this is a natural progression for him.
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Post by awalkinthepark on Sept 14, 2023 12:16:22 GMT -5
I have been and will always be a Bloom supporter, but a .500 team and last place finish in the 4th(!) season after the Mookie trade is just totally indefensible. This has been my criticism of him the entire time, he never just did a full rebuild. If you are going to trade Mookie, okay, fine, but just rip off the bandaid and do everything you can to restock the farm. Bloom never did that and so the team has operated in this middle ground the entire time he has been here. Ownership clearly charged him with *not* doing a full rebuild. If he had his job would have been a whole lot easier!
And we are talking about two seasons in which the team has been roughly .500. If this is the down period thaks to the bottoming out of the farm system, well, what teams have had better down periods than that?
It depends on how you define 'better', I would much rather have a team be the worst team in baseball for 2 years and then be competitive, then to be stuck in perpetual mediocrity like the Sox have been. But this is what Bloom chose. The way you get the most out of trades is sacrificing the present for gains in the future (or vice versa). Bloom never did that, he never sacrificed the present, which means he also wasn't investing in the future as much as he should have. Now to your point, I agree this was probably more on ownership than on Bloom, but it is still frustrating to see him have one foot in the present by never doing a full rebuild, but also one foot in the future by trading Mookie and refusing to deal away prospects. The result of this is a .500 team year after year because you never picked a window to invest in.
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Post by soxfan06 on Sept 14, 2023 12:16:24 GMT -5
I really, really, really hope they don't force their next manager to just be stuck with a manager he doesn't want just because. Again, we need to stop setting our organization up to fail. If Cora's philosophy doesn't go well together with the next GM, we should let the next GM pick the coach.
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