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Chris Sale traded to Atlanta for Vaughn Grissom
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Post by ematz1423 on Jan 4, 2024 21:39:11 GMT -5
Feels way too early to even think about a grissom extension. I like the move and the player but there's a real possibility his defense at 2nd doesn't improve, his power never develops further and he's an all hit tool utility player. That type of player can be useful to a team during the cheap cost controlled years but I don't find it a good idea to remove those cheap years completely.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Jan 4, 2024 21:42:21 GMT -5
Feels way too early to even think about a grissom extension. I like the move and the player but there's a real possibility his defense at 2nd doesn't improve, his power never develops further and he's an all hit tool utility player. That type of player can be useful to a team during the cheap cost controlled years but I don't find it a good idea to remove those cheap years completely. At some point you have to operate like the Braves and take risks on young talent. If you aren't spending money on free agents you should at least use it to lock up the young core. Right now, Vaughn Grissom is part of this young core.
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Post by ematz1423 on Jan 4, 2024 21:46:39 GMT -5
Feels way too early to even think about a grissom extension. I like the move and the player but there's a real possibility his defense at 2nd doesn't improve, his power never develops further and he's an all hit tool utility player. That type of player can be useful to a team during the cheap cost controlled years but I don't find it a good idea to remove those cheap years completely. At some point you have to operate like the Braves and take risks on young talent. If you aren't spending money on free agents you should at least use it to lock up the young core. Right now, Vaughn Grissom is part of this young core. I'm not convinced he is, need to see more. His defense gives me real cause for concern. If he proves to be the butcher in the field he's shown then to me he's not a part of the core long term. Like I said I like move and the player just not quite on board trying to lock him down yet. Take the two years of league minimum salary and reassess after that. At the very least take this year.
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Post by GyIantosca on Jan 5, 2024 14:04:11 GMT -5
Bottom line this needed to be done. Maybe it’s better now. You can see every time Sale pitches the stress takes something out of him. My opinion .
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jan 5, 2024 20:13:13 GMT -5
Mac Cerullo @maccerullo · 3h Vaughn Grissom says he used to play against Triston Casas growing up and they've kept in touch over the years. Says Casas was among the first to reach out after he was traded.
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 5, 2024 20:37:17 GMT -5
(People make such a big deal about a Japanese player potentially choosing a team because they're 5,000 miles from home rather than 6,500, and then totally discard the principle when it comes to American players who might choose to *actually* live close to home.) Except when someone is from somewhere northwest-ish, then they're definitely going to sign with Seattle (they never sign with Seattle).
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Jan 5, 2024 21:06:10 GMT -5
(People make such a big deal about a Japanese player potentially choosing a team because they're 5,000 miles from home rather than 6,500, and then totally discard the principle when it comes to American players who might choose to *actually* live close to home.) Except when someone is from somewhere northwest-ish, then they're definitely going to sign with Seattle (they never sign with Seattle). But… but… we don’t have an income tax. 🤔
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Jan 5, 2024 23:44:38 GMT -5
(People make such a big deal about a Japanese player potentially choosing a team because they're 5,000 miles from home rather than 6,500, and then totally discard the principle when it comes to American players who might choose to *actually* live close to home.) Except when someone is from somewhere northwest-ish, then they're definitely going to sign with Seattle (they never sign with Seattle). So I shouldn't cash my Snell to the Mariners bet in the MLBTR Free Agent contest yet?
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Post by bloomstaxonomy on Jan 7, 2024 11:19:30 GMT -5
Apologies if someone posted this earlier and I missed it, but I don't believe anyone has brought up the fact that Bloom had a trade for Sale on the table at the 2022 deadline. It fell apart because Bloom allegedly held out for a better return that was never offered. The team would have taken on the entirety of Sale's remaining salary and "multiple" players would have been sent to the Sox. I wonder if the Braves were indeed that team at the time. They ended up trading for Odorizzi from HOU at the last minute at the deadline to bolster their rotation, which didn't work out for them. If he was plan B, Sale might have been plan A. I also wonder if the leaks from the FO at the time of Bloom's exit that complained about trade paralysis were specifically referring to this incident. Furthermore, I wonder if Eddie Romero played a part in facilitating this transaction on behalf of Breslow given their possible conversations prior in 2022 (speculation based on my assumption), and if Breslow came to his interview explicitly communicating to ownership that he'd like to trade Sale to reallocate some $$. I keep thinking back to his introductory press conference where he articulated to fans that some of their favorite players may be traded and that difficult decisions will have to be made (paraphrasing). Perhaps trading Sale was the plan all along. Perhaps ownership gave Breslow the directive to do so, given they were already prepared for a trade in 2022 and were disappointed it didn't materialize given Sale's injuries and performance since. Perhaps this was stuck in Sam Kennedy's craw and was a major factor in Bloom's dismissal. www.nbcsportsboston.com/mlb/boston-red-sox/chaim-bloom-red-sox-turned-down-enticing-chris-sale-trade-offer-2022/553100/Not really trying to make a point here. Just thought it was an interesting line to draw from then to now.
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Post by chr31ter on Jan 7, 2024 11:30:36 GMT -5
Apologies if someone posted this earlier and I missed it, but I don't believe anyone has brought up the fact that Bloom had a trade for Sale on the table at the 2022 deadline. It fell apart because Bloom allegedly held out for a better return that was never offered. The team would have taken on the entirety of Sale's remaining salary and "multiple" players would have been sent to the Sox. I wonder if the Braves were indeed that team at the time. I was under the impression that the mystery buyer for Sale was the Texas Rangers, and the deal would have involved the Red Sox taking back a less than desirable contract.
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Post by costpet on Jan 7, 2024 11:56:18 GMT -5
I just hope Breslow isn't Bloom 2.0.
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Post by awalkinthepark on Jan 7, 2024 12:40:04 GMT -5
Apologies if someone posted this earlier and I missed it, but I don't believe anyone has brought up the fact that Bloom had a trade for Sale on the table at the 2022 deadline. It fell apart because Bloom allegedly held out for a better return that was never offered. The team would have taken on the entirety of Sale's remaining salary and "multiple" players would have been sent to the Sox. I wonder if the Braves were indeed that team at the time. They ended up trading for Odorizzi from HOU at the last minute at the deadline to bolster their rotation, which didn't work out for them. If he was plan B, Sale might have been plan A. I also wonder if the leaks from the FO at the time of Bloom's exit that complained about trade paralysis were specifically referring to this incident. Furthermore, I wonder if Eddie Romero played a part in facilitating this transaction on behalf of Breslow given their possible conversations prior in 2022 (speculation based on my assumption), and if Breslow came to his interview explicitly communicating to ownership that he'd like to trade Sale to reallocate some $$. I keep thinking back to his introductory press conference where he articulated to fans that some of their favorite players may be traded and that difficult decisions will have to be made (paraphrasing). Perhaps trading Sale was the plan all along. Perhaps ownership gave Breslow the directive to do so, given they were already prepared for a trade in 2022 and were disappointed it didn't materialize given Sale's injuries and performance since. Perhaps this was stuck in Sam Kennedy's craw and was a major factor in Bloom's dismissal. www.nbcsportsboston.com/mlb/boston-red-sox/chaim-bloom-red-sox-turned-down-enticing-chris-sale-trade-offer-2022/553100/Not really trying to make a point here. Just thought it was an interesting line to draw from then to now. Whether or not Bloom should have made that trade depends on the return. Trading Sale to the Braves was only good because we got Grissom in return, who seems like he can be a solid 2B going forward. But trading away players just for the sake of it never makes any sense to me, whether it's Sale, Story or now potentially Yoshida. And if it's true that the team who would have acquired him at the 23 deadline (I think it was 23, not 22) was actually going to take on his entire contract, the return probably would not have been great.
The Red Sox have money to spend. What they don't have is good players, and the players they can acquire with money aren't all that desirable in my eyes. Getting out of the Sale, Story or Yoshida contracts gives them more money, but then what? I don't think getting Sale off the books means they would have gotten Ohtani or Yamamoto. Which means we are in the same spot more or less but with more money and holes to fill. I don't really think that is a better position honestly.
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Post by bishop on Jan 7, 2024 12:46:50 GMT -5
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Jan 7, 2024 13:10:30 GMT -5
I just hope Breslow isn't Bloom 2.0. Feel like the anger is more appropriately directed to the ownership group that just got under the LT but still wants to clear space to add a mid size contract while being dozens of millions under the LT once again, rather than the guy who rebuilt the farm from despair and took a team to the ALCS while doing so.
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Jan 7, 2024 14:00:17 GMT -5
Apologies if someone posted this earlier and I missed it, but I don't believe anyone has brought up the fact that Bloom had a trade for Sale on the table at the 2022 deadline. It fell apart because Bloom allegedly held out for a better return that was never offered. The team would have taken on the entirety of Sale's remaining salary and "multiple" players would have been sent to the Sox. I wonder if the Braves were indeed that team at the time. They ended up trading for Odorizzi from HOU at the last minute at the deadline to bolster their rotation, which didn't work out for them. If he was plan B, Sale might have been plan A. I also wonder if the leaks from the FO at the time of Bloom's exit that complained about trade paralysis were specifically referring to this incident. Furthermore, I wonder if Eddie Romero played a part in facilitating this transaction on behalf of Breslow given their possible conversations prior in 2022 (speculation based on my assumption), and if Breslow came to his interview explicitly communicating to ownership that he'd like to trade Sale to reallocate some $$. I keep thinking back to his introductory press conference where he articulated to fans that some of their favorite players may be traded and that difficult decisions will have to be made (paraphrasing). Perhaps trading Sale was the plan all along. Perhaps ownership gave Breslow the directive to do so, given they were already prepared for a trade in 2022 and were disappointed it didn't materialize given Sale's injuries and performance since. Perhaps this was stuck in Sam Kennedy's craw and was a major factor in Bloom's dismissal. www.nbcsportsboston.com/mlb/boston-red-sox/chaim-bloom-red-sox-turned-down-enticing-chris-sale-trade-offer-2022/553100/Not really trying to make a point here. Just thought it was an interesting line to draw from then to now. Whether or not Bloom should have made that trade depends on the return. Trading Sale to the Braves was only good because we got Grissom in return, who seems like he can be a solid 2B going forward. But trading away players just for the sake of it never makes any sense to me, whether it's Sale, Story or now potentially Yoshida. And if it's true that the team who would have acquired him at the 23 deadline (I think it was 23, not 22) was actually going to take on his entire contract, the return probably would not have been great.
The Red Sox have money to spend. What they don't have is good players, and the players they can acquire with money aren't all that desirable in my eyes. Getting out of the Sale, Story or Yoshida contracts gives them more money, but then what? I don't think getting Sale off the books means they would have gotten Ohtani or Yamamoto. Which means we are in the same spot more or less but with more money and holes to fill. I don't really think that is a better position honestly.
This is a possibility that I don't think is being discussed enough. Just because you have money to spend doesn't mean that what you can buy is something you want. It's like getting a raise and your spouse wants to update everything in the house but you can only shop at Walmart. The way that the Sox seem to be waiting out the pitching market and holding the line at 2 years on Teoscar seems to me like they just aren't thrilled with what's on the shelves. The pitching market next year holds a lot more promise, particularly with all the 1-year and 2-year-with-player-option contracts being signed this winter.
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Post by maxwellsdemon on Jan 7, 2024 21:00:57 GMT -5
Whether or not Bloom should have made that trade depends on the return. Trading Sale to the Braves was only good because we got Grissom in return, who seems like he can be a solid 2B going forward. But trading away players just for the sake of it never makes any sense to me, whether it's Sale, Story or now potentially Yoshida. And if it's true that the team who would have acquired him at the 23 deadline (I think it was 23, not 22) was actually going to take on his entire contract, the return probably would not have been great.
The Red Sox have money to spend. What they don't have is good players, and the players they can acquire with money aren't all that desirable in my eyes. Getting out of the Sale, Story or Yoshida contracts gives them more money, but then what? I don't think getting Sale off the books means they would have gotten Ohtani or Yamamoto. Which means we are in the same spot more or less but with more money and holes to fill. I don't really think that is a better position honestly.
This is a possibility that I don't think is being discussed enough. Just because you have money to spend doesn't mean that what you can buy is something you want. It's like getting a raise and your spouse wants to update everything in the house but you can only shop at Walmart. The way that the Sox seem to be waiting out the pitching market and holding the line at 2 years on Teoscar seems to me like they just aren't thrilled with what's on the shelves. The pitching market next year holds a lot more promise, particularly with all the 1-year and 2-year-with-player-option contracts being signed this winter. Yeah I think you're exactly right here. The problem is the Sox probably aren't ready to make a serious run this year. The addition of Teoscar would likely help this year and maaaybe next, but while he's a good piece to have on a contender now he's not the guy to lead them to the promised land and by the time the team is ready he will be an expensive bench player as he ages down the curve. It's better to see what they have in Rafaela, Abreu, Duran and O'Neill and have another year to see if Anthony is a true phenom that can looked to next season. So why spend of a player that isn't a real difference maker and that interferes with the decision on which of the OF can be counted on in 2 years and, by the way, are cheap and on the upswing? To a degree the same argument can be made for pitching except if you can get a proven MLB mid rotation or better start who projects to have some run left there should always be room.
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Post by pappyman99 on Jan 7, 2024 21:10:58 GMT -5
Something underrated here. If Sale finished top 10 in Al cy young voting his option automatically would have vested
I think there are only 8-10 SPs in the Al that received votes…. You don’t think an NY writer or another Al east city right would have thrown him a a vote knowing that?
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Jan 7, 2024 22:44:14 GMT -5
Something underrated here. If Sale finished top 10 in Al cy young voting his option automatically would have vested I think there are only 8-10 SPs in the Al that received votes…. You don’t think an NY writer or another Al east city right would have thrown him a a vote knowing that? This came up earlier in the winter but ATL nipped that in the bud by just extending him for that year without ever seeing him throw a bullpen. I wonder if the 2026 option is the same as the previous one.
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Post by bloomstaxonomy on Jan 7, 2024 22:47:32 GMT -5
Something underrated here. If Sale finished top 10 in Al cy young voting his option automatically would have vested I think there are only 8-10 SPs in the Al that received votes…. You don’t think an NY writer or another Al east city right would have thrown him a a vote knowing that? This came up earlier in the winter but ATL nipped that in the bud by just extending him for that year without ever seeing him throw a bullpen. I wonder if the 2026 option is the same as the previous one. Yeah I posted a few months ago about Pete Abe throwing him a 10th place vote no matter his stats just so he has something to complain about, although that’s never a challenge
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Jan 7, 2024 23:44:28 GMT -5
This came up earlier in the winter but ATL nipped that in the bud by just extending him for that year without ever seeing him throw a bullpen. I wonder if the 2026 option is the same as the previous one. Yeah I posted a few months ago about Pete Abe throwing him a 10th place vote no matter his stats just so he has something to complain about, although that’s never a challenge Chris Martin came in 12th in 2023 CY voting on the strength of a single 8th place vote. Doesn't take much.
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Post by bishop on Jan 8, 2024 9:37:25 GMT -5
Something underrated here. If Sale finished top 10 in Al cy young voting his option automatically would have vested I think there are only 8-10 SPs in the Al that received votes…. You don’t think an NY writer or another Al east city right would have thrown him a a vote knowing that? No, this isn't the 1930's, I think they value their reputation more than helping the "hometown" team if he truly sucked or blew out his elbow or something. It wasn't even that onerous an option, he clearly still had some trade value this winter despite his lack of innings and success since 2019. If anything I think it would have been more likely done as a favor to his agent than the local team, but that would still probably cost the writer his voting rights unless it was a little justifiable, in which case we probably would have picked it up.
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Jan 8, 2024 14:55:49 GMT -5
I just hope Breslow isn't Bloom 2.0. Bloom hindered had ownership vs Breslow hindered by the same ownership? If ownership’s part or all of problem you may well have a similar result. That said, I like trading Verdugo for Fitts & company, O’Neil for RH bullpen depth, Giolito in, and Sale out for Grissom moves. IMO, they have all been good moves that head the team in the right (literally all are RH, lol) direction.
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Post by ephus on Jan 8, 2024 15:18:00 GMT -5
Have the Woosox done an analysis on savings they expect with rehabbing players not ripping TVs off of walls?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 8, 2024 17:45:06 GMT -5
I just hope Breslow isn't Bloom 2.0. Bloom hindered had ownership vs Breslow hindered by the same ownership? If ownership’s part or all of problem you may well have a similar result. That said, I like trading Verdugo for Fitts & company, O’Neil for RH bullpen depth, Giolito in, and Sale out for Grissom moves. IMO, they have all been good moves that head the team in the right (literally all are RH, lol) direction. Yeah if you have the same complaints about Breslow once we have enough of a sample size (which we do not yet), that means the problem isn't Breslow and wasn't Bloom, most likely.
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Post by ephus on Jan 8, 2024 17:58:51 GMT -5
Ron Washington loves Vaughn and believes in time, with coaching, he will be just fine. You know what this tells me? It tells me I can do my very favorite thing: I can watch a young baseball player grow into a very good baseball player, and damnit, y'all, that is why I am here.
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