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Theo Epstein Returns as Part Owner & Advisor
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Post by incandenza on Feb 3, 2024 9:49:39 GMT -5
Wait..so ownership was preoccupied and not just focused on projected WAR for the 2026 core? I look at it this way. This is the best ownership group the Sox ever had. Period. You look back and before Tom Yawkey there wasnt a lot of continuity. They won titles but ownershio changed often in those early days. They won twice under Joe Lannin but he wound up selling to Harry Frazee, who did everything he could to make sure the Sox had the best team they could have in 1918. The Sox won the Series and eventually he got tired of Babe Ruth's demands for money, sold him, had originally intended to replace him with quality players, but had become enemies with AL President Ban Johnson by then as he was considered an outsider and was on his own island with Johnson's other enemies, the Yankees, who had cash, were rising, and wanted to win, and a ruined White Sox team. Frazee got frustrated, and gave up, as the Sox at that point, were hardly his passion, given that the theater was his first love and he wrecked the club and gave the Yankees the beginning of their dynasty. I would say by early 1919 Frazee was well regarded in Boston. Within a few years he was a pariah. He sold the club finally to Bob Quinn who had a backer with money, but that backer died and Quinn was left with a decimated team and no money and no hope. Eventually Tom Yawkey buys the team and pours a ton of money into it getting guys like Foxx, Grove, and Ferrell, but over time he starts to lose interest and sinks deeper into an alcoholic fog by time the 50s roll around. No wonder the requirement to be his GM was to be his drinking buddy. Too bad racial tolerance wasn't a requirement. By the 60s Yawkey has been sick and has started to dry out. He has long neglected the club and eventually left it to the one competent man he had left to run it, Dick O'Connell, which had been a departure from his drinking buddies. The Sox are a mess. Yawkey is finally sober and his main desire is to get a new ballpark or move the team, perhaps to Milwaukee to replace the Braves who had just relocated to Atlanta. Then thanks to the competence of O'Connell, farm director Neil Mahoney, and Dick Williams, the miracle of 1967 happens and suddenly the long lost passion Yawkey had for the Sox has revived, which rankled Dick Williams who saw Yawkey as a Johnny come lately. And that friction eventually led to his firing. Yawkey spends the last years of his life passionate about the Sox, but a simmering ownership power play eventually erupts 7 years after his death on Tony C night, a tribute to Conigliaro who had suffered a stroke and was in a coma. The classless LeRoux vs Sullivan and Mrs. Yawkey fight breaks out, Yawkey eventually wins but realizes Sullivan's shortcomings and replaces him in her circle of trust with a reluctant John Harrington who upon her death baby sits the Sox for a decade leaving them in limbo until he finds a real owner. Enter Henry and Werner who do everything to win over a skeptical fanbase who preferred local owners because they want somebody who loves the Sox as much as they do and doesnt just see them as a business. Henry intends to hire Billy Beane and modernize the Sox on hopes of winning and is fortunate when Beane accepts and then changes his mind and Theo Epstein is waiting in the wings and just like that, competent ownership, a competent young man making the moves, money being poured into the team and the Sox are finally a winner. Drama ensues as Theo sees things in the levels above him that rankle him. He leaves but is persuaded to come back, they win again but eventually Theo sees more that he doesnt like, and he's bound for Chicago. But Henry is still invested in his team and they win a surprise championship, rebuild with a new core, pour more money into the team and the greatest Sox team of all time wins the series with ease. Then Henry sees an expensive Sox team that plays hung over in 2019 and notices Tampa for a fraction of the cost has become better so he hires Bloom to run things, trading Mookie a priority. Somewhere along the way Henry becomes more preoccupied with his growing empire and the Sox are just another entity to him and acquisitions become more of a focal point to him. The Sox slide into mediocrity with the exception of one fun surprise season, money stops being poured into the team, there's a malaise around the team and fan base and even some wishes he'd sell if he's lost interest. My long history lesson shows that the Sox have had owners who are engaged with the Sox, but can lose interest the way a cat can when they have a new toy and get tired of it and eventually neglect it. I hear the, "they won four titles" argument as evidence that you're foolish if you want them to sell. I don't know about that. Imagine being an Oakland A's fan in 1978. The A's are in a downward spiral because Charlie Finley doesn't want to invest in his team and doesn't like how there is a market and that it's crazy in his view. Yeah, but the A's won 3 straight championships from 72 - 74, his backers would say. As an A's fan in 1978 would you want him to sell? I would. Past glory isn't always an indicator of an ownership's current level of commitment to the team. As history shows, ownership can be mercurial. I had started to lean in the perhaps they should sell category, although I wasn't firmly planted into that view as of yet. The hiring of Theo gives me hope that even if Henry really isn't in to the Sox as he was once at least he has somebody very competent keeping an eye on them which is the next best thing so that assuages a lot of my concerns for the time being. That's how important I think this hire is. Thanks for the history lesson redsoxchamps, that's interesting stuff! What you say at the end there makes a lot of sense in light of all that.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 3, 2024 9:54:12 GMT -5
I look at it this way. This is the best ownership group the Sox ever had. Period. You look back and before Tom Yawkey there wasnt a lot of continuity. They won titles but ownershio changed often in those early days. They won twice under Joe Lannin but he wound up selling to Harry Frazee, who did everything he could to make sure the Sox had the best team they could have in 1918. The Sox won the Series and eventually he got tired of Babe Ruth's demands for money, sold him, had originally intended to replace him with quality players, but had become enemies with AL President Ban Johnson by then as he was considered an outsider and was on his own island with Johnson's other enemies, the Yankees, who had cash, were rising, and wanted to win, and a ruined White Sox team. Frazee got frustrated, and gave up, as the Sox at that point, were hardly his passion, given that the theater was his first love and he wrecked the club and gave the Yankees the beginning of their dynasty. I would say by early 1919 Frazee was well regarded in Boston. Within a few years he was a pariah. He sold the club finally to Bob Quinn who had a backer with money, but that backer died and Quinn was left with a decimated team and no money and no hope. Eventually Tom Yawkey buys the team and pours a ton of money into it getting guys like Foxx, Grove, and Ferrell, but over time he starts to lose interest and sinks deeper into an alcoholic fog by time the 50s roll around. No wonder the requirement to be his GM was to be his drinking buddy. Too bad racial tolerance wasn't a requirement. By the 60s Yawkey has been sick and has started to dry out. He has long neglected the club and eventually left it to the one competent man he had left to run it, Dick O'Connell, which had been a departure from his drinking buddies. The Sox are a mess. Yawkey is finally sober and his main desire is to get a new ballpark or move the team, perhaps to Milwaukee to replace the Braves who had just relocated to Atlanta. Then thanks to the competence of O'Connell, farm director Neil Mahoney, and Dick Williams, the miracle of 1967 happens and suddenly the long lost passion Yawkey had for the Sox has revived, which rankled Dick Williams who saw Yawkey as a Johnny come lately. And that friction eventually led to his firing. Yawkey spends the last years of his life passionate about the Sox, but a simmering ownership power play eventually erupts 7 years after his death on Tony C night, a tribute to Conigliaro who had suffered a stroke and was in a coma. The classless LeRoux vs Sullivan and Mrs. Yawkey fight breaks out, Yawkey eventually wins but realizes Sullivan's shortcomings and replaces him in her circle of trust with a reluctant John Harrington who upon her death baby sits the Sox for a decade leaving them in limbo until he finds a real owner. Enter Henry and Werner who do everything to win over a skeptical fanbase who preferred local owners because they want somebody who loves the Sox as much as they do and doesnt just see them as a business. Henry intends to hire Billy Beane and modernize the Sox on hopes of winning and is fortunate when Beane accepts and then changes his mind and Theo Epstein is waiting in the wings and just like that, competent ownership, a competent young man making the moves, money being poured into the team and the Sox are finally a winner. Drama ensues as Theo sees things in the levels above him that rankle him. He leaves but is persuaded to come back, they win again but eventually Theo sees more that he doesnt like, and he's bound for Chicago. But Henry is still invested in his team and they win a surprise championship, rebuild with a new core, pour more money into the team and the greatest Sox team of all time wins the series with ease. Then Henry sees an expensive Sox team that plays hung over in 2019 and notices Tampa for a fraction of the cost has become better so he hires Bloom to run things, trading Mookie a priority. Somewhere along the way Henry becomes more preoccupied with his growing empire and the Sox are just another entity to him and acquisitions become more of a focal point to him. The Sox slide into mediocrity with the exception of one fun surprise season, money stops being poured into the team, there's a malaise around the team and fan base and even some wishes he'd sell if he's lost interest. My long history lesson shows that the Sox have had owners who are engaged with the Sox, but can lose interest the way a cat can when they have a new toy and get tired of it and eventually neglect it. I hear the, "they won four titles" argument as evidence that you're foolish if you want them to sell. I don't know about that. Imagine being an Oakland A's fan in 1978. The A's are in a downward spiral because Charlie Finley doesn't want to invest in his team and doesn't like how there is a market and that it's crazy in his view. Yeah, but the A's won 3 straight championships from 72 - 74, his backers would say. As an A's fan in 1978 would you want him to sell? I would. Past glory isn't always an indicator of an ownership's current level of commitment to the team. As history shows, ownership can be mercurial. I had started to lean in the perhaps they should sell category, although I wasn't firmly planted into that view as of yet. The hiring of Theo gives me hope that even if Henry really isn't in to the Sox as he was once at least he has somebody very competent keeping an eye on them which is the next best thing so that assuages a lot of my concerns for the time being. That's how important I think this hire is. Thanks for the history lesson redsoxchamps, that's interesting stuff! What you say at the end there makes a lot of sense in light of all that. It's funny how history in some ways changes and in other ways repeats itself. Taking a look at it allows you to see the differences and the striking similarities.
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Post by foreverred9 on Feb 3, 2024 10:21:15 GMT -5
The one thing I feel confident in saying is that this current ownership wants to run the Red Sox at a profit. There's too many investors, so they aren't going to be able to get away with running the Sox at a loss. And I'm not sure they really had run them at a loss in past years either, but NESN revenues likely were huge then.
Expecting us to compete with the Mets and the team of the year (i.e. Padres) is going to set us up for disappointment each year. But you'd think this fan base generates enough revenue to be a top 5 spender. That's the piece of the equation I can't wrap my head around, that we aren't a top revenue fanbase. But if NESN is hemorrhaging and the investors want Red Sox + NESN to be profitable, maybe that's the source of the downward spend.
Saying that the owners don't care anymore, or that their investment in PGA changes how they thinking about running the Red Sox, just doesn't make any sense to me. I know that's a popular hot take and it's the easy road to take, but it's not logical. FSG is a conglomeration of many entities that individually each have a goal to return a profit.
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radiohix
Veteran
'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,320
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Post by radiohix on Feb 3, 2024 10:22:27 GMT -5
Wait..so ownership was preoccupied and not just focused on projected WAR for the 2026 core? I look at it this way. This is the best ownership group the Sox ever had. Period. You look back and before Tom Yawkey there wasnt a lot of continuity. They won titles but ownershio changed often in those early days. They won twice under Joe Lannin but he wound up selling to Harry Frazee, who did everything he could to make sure the Sox had the best team they could have in 1918. The Sox won the Series and eventually he got tired of Babe Ruth's demands for money, sold him, had originally intended to replace him with quality players, but had become enemies with AL President Ban Johnson by then as he was considered an outsider and was on his own island with Johnson's other enemies, the Yankees, who had cash, were rising, and wanted to win, and a ruined White Sox team. Frazee got frustrated, and gave up, as the Sox at that point, were hardly his passion, given that the theater was his first love and he wrecked the club and gave the Yankees the beginning of their dynasty. I would say by early 1919 Frazee was well regarded in Boston. Within a few years he was a pariah. He sold the club finally to Bob Quinn who had a backer with money, but that backer died and Quinn was left with a decimated team and no money and no hope. Eventually Tom Yawkey buys the team and pours a ton of money into it getting guys like Foxx, Grove, and Ferrell, but over time he starts to lose interest and sinks deeper into an alcoholic fog by time the 50s roll around. No wonder the requirement to be his GM was to be his drinking buddy. Too bad racial tolerance wasn't a requirement. By the 60s Yawkey has been sick and has started to dry out. He has long neglected the club and eventually left it to the one competent man he had left to run it, Dick O'Connell, which had been a departure from his drinking buddies. The Sox are a mess. Yawkey is finally sober and his main desire is to get a new ballpark or move the team, perhaps to Milwaukee to replace the Braves who had just relocated to Atlanta. Then thanks to the competence of O'Connell, farm director Neil Mahoney, and Dick Williams, the miracle of 1967 happens and suddenly the long lost passion Yawkey had for the Sox has revived, which rankled Dick Williams who saw Yawkey as a Johnny come lately. And that friction eventually led to his firing. Yawkey spends the last years of his life passionate about the Sox, but a simmering ownership power play eventually erupts 7 years after his death on Tony C night, a tribute to Conigliaro who had suffered a stroke and was in a coma. The classless LeRoux vs Sullivan and Mrs. Yawkey fight breaks out, Yawkey eventually wins but realizes Sullivan's shortcomings and replaces him in her circle of trust with a reluctant John Harrington who upon her death baby sits the Sox for a decade leaving them in limbo until he finds a real owner. Enter Henry and Werner who do everything to win over a skeptical fanbase who preferred local owners because they want somebody who loves the Sox as much as they do and doesnt just see them as a business. Henry intends to hire Billy Beane and modernize the Sox on hopes of winning and is fortunate when Beane accepts and then changes his mind and Theo Epstein is waiting in the wings and just like that, competent ownership, a competent young man making the moves, money being poured into the team and the Sox are finally a winner. Drama ensues as Theo sees things in the levels above him that rankle him. He leaves but is persuaded to come back, they win again but eventually Theo sees more that he doesnt like, and he's bound for Chicago. But Henry is still invested in his team and they win a surprise championship, rebuild with a new core, pour more money into the team and the greatest Sox team of all time wins the series with ease. Then Henry sees an expensive Sox team that plays hung over in 2019 and notices Tampa for a fraction of the cost has become better so he hires Bloom to run things, trading Mookie a priority. Somewhere along the way Henry becomes more preoccupied with his growing empire and the Sox are just another entity to him and acquisitions become more of a focal point to him. The Sox slide into mediocrity with the exception of one fun surprise season, money stops being poured into the team, there's a malaise around the team and fan base and even some wishes he'd sell if he's lost interest. My long history lesson shows that the Sox have had owners who are engaged with the Sox, but can lose interest the way a cat can when they have a new toy and get tired of it and eventually neglect it. I hear the, "they won four titles" argument as evidence that you're foolish if you want them to sell. I don't know about that. Imagine being an Oakland A's fan in 1978. The A's are in a downward spiral because Charlie Finley doesn't want to invest in his team and doesn't like how there is a market and that it's crazy in his view. Yeah, but the A's won 3 straight championships from 72 - 74, his backers would say. As an A's fan in 1978 would you want him to sell? I would. Past glory isn't always an indicator of an ownership's current level of commitment to the team. As history shows, ownership can be mercurial. I had started to lean in the perhaps they should sell category, although I wasn't firmly planted into that view as of yet. The hiring of Theo gives me hope that even if Henry really isn't in to the Sox as he was once at least he has somebody very competent keeping an eye on them which is the next best thing so that assuages a lot of my concerns for the time being. That's how important I think this hire is. Outstanding stuff right here!
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Post by bloomstaxonomy on Feb 3, 2024 10:31:07 GMT -5
In Pete Abe's piece this morning in the Globe, he mentions near the end that he sees Epstein and Kennedy as principal owners of the team at some point in the future. The idea of two Brookline kids blowing off homework to go see Silence of the Lambs and talking about how mad they're going to get seeing Dwight Evans wearing an Orioles jersey while having no idea that they'd both eventually own the Red Sox is pretty cool.
Every bit of reporting I've seen hints at Kennedy's frustration with Henry and Werner.
Anyone know if Theo joining would actually impact cash flow and financial "flexibility" given the amalgamation of resources? I honestly have no idea how that part works when a new minority owner is brought in. Would be pretty sweet if it would give them the juice to spend up to the tax threshold, but, again, I have no idea if that's moot.
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Post by scottysmalls on Feb 3, 2024 10:34:00 GMT -5
In Pete Abe's piece this morning in the Globe, he mentions near the end that he sees Epstein and Kennedy as principal owners of the team at some point in the future. The idea of two Brookline kids blowing off homework to go see Silence of the Lambs and talking about how mad they're going to get seeing Dwight Evans wearing an Orioles jersey while having no idea that they'd both eventually own the Red Sox is pretty cool. Every bit of reporting I've seen hints at Kennedy's frustration with Henry and Werner. Anyone know if Theo joining would actually impact cash flow and financial "flexibility" given the amalgamation of resources. I honestly have no idea how that part works when a new minority owner is brought in. Would be pretty sweet if it would give them the juice to spend up to the tax threshold, but, again, I have no idea if that's moot. I really really doubt Theo joining affects budgets and/or payroll at all outside of any strategic guidance he provides. He’s definitely rich, but not independently own and/or finance a baseball team rich.
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Post by greatscottcooper on Feb 3, 2024 10:43:42 GMT -5
In Pete Abe's piece this morning in the Globe, he mentions near the end that he sees Epstein and Kennedy as principal owners of the team at some point in the future. The idea of two Brookline kids blowing off homework to go see Silence of the Lambs and talking about how mad they're going to get seeing Dwight Evans wearing an Orioles jersey while having no idea that they'd both eventually own the Red Sox is pretty cool. Every bit of reporting I've seen hints at Kennedy's frustration with Henry and Werner. Anyone know if Theo joining would actually impact cash flow and financial "flexibility" given the amalgamation of resources. I honestly have no idea how that part works when a new minority owner is brought in. Would be pretty sweet if it would give them the juice to spend up to the tax threshold, but, again, I have no idea if that's moot. I really really doubt Theo joining affects budgets and/or payroll at all outside of any strategic guidance he provides. He’s definitely rich, but not independently own and/or finance a baseball team rich. I agree with this, in general. Theo shouldn't be running the Sox, otherwise they should have hired him to be the POBO. Maybe this is pure conjecture on my part but I also don't think a budget is set in stone on this team, it's more amorphous with the ability to expand or contract under the right circumstances; pretty much the entire past under this ownership proves this so maybe it's not conjecture. I'm certain there are circumstances that a GM/POBO, even those who are generally given free reign to run a team, have to go to the owner to ask for more money. "Hey, I know the budget was set at 200 million, but this guy might put us over the top and adds value for the next 5 years, and we can stay under the cap or reset next year" I view Theo as being the guy who is the one to say yes or no in that situation on behalf of John Henry. I don't think John Henry doesn't care about this team, and I also think he understands that he can't just make money in perputuity based on past success, and I do think he understands that investing in the team can ultimately lead to higher net income. But perhaps this move is an admittance that he doesn't have the time anymore to be that man for this team with everything else he was going on with FSG. I view Theo as being the guy who SHOULD be approving big time decisions such as going after Ohtani, dishing out the money to extend Mookie Betts, going over the luxury tax at the deadline to make a championship run etc etc. Theo is in a better position to evaluate those decisions than John Henry is, and If I'm right on this then it's a very good sign that John Henry trusts Theo Epstein in this capacity. Side Note. I have a 5 year old son named Theo. Yes, I partially named him after Theo Epstein. The man who helped break the curse and bring a world series to this franchise after 86 years.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Feb 3, 2024 10:45:43 GMT -5
Wait..so ownership was preoccupied and not just focused on projected WAR for the 2026 core? I look at it this way. This is the best ownership group the Sox ever had. Period. You look back and before Tom Yawkey there wasnt a lot of continuity. They won titles but ownershio changed often in those early days. They won twice under Joe Lannin but he wound up selling to Harry Frazee, who did everything he could to make sure the Sox had the best team they could have in 1918. The Sox won the Series and eventually he got tired of Babe Ruth's demands for money, sold him, had originally intended to replace him with quality players, but had become enemies with AL President Ban Johnson by then as he was considered an outsider and was on his own island with Johnson's other enemies, the Yankees, who had cash, were rising, and wanted to win, and a ruined White Sox team. Frazee got frustrated, and gave up, as the Sox at that point, were hardly his passion, given that the theater was his first love and he wrecked the club and gave the Yankees the beginning of their dynasty. I would say by early 1919 Frazee was well regarded in Boston. Within a few years he was a pariah. He sold the club finally to Bob Quinn who had a backer with money, but that backer died and Quinn was left with a decimated team and no money and no hope. Eventually Tom Yawkey buys the team and pours a ton of money into it getting guys like Foxx, Grove, and Ferrell, but over time he starts to lose interest and sinks deeper into an alcoholic fog by time the 50s roll around. No wonder the requirement to be his GM was to be his drinking buddy. Too bad racial tolerance wasn't a requirement. By the 60s Yawkey has been sick and has started to dry out. He has long neglected the club and eventually left it to the one competent man he had left to run it, Dick O'Connell, which had been a departure from his drinking buddies. The Sox are a mess. Yawkey is finally sober and his main desire is to get a new ballpark or move the team, perhaps to Milwaukee to replace the Braves who had just relocated to Atlanta. Then thanks to the competence of O'Connell, farm director Neil Mahoney, and Dick Williams, the miracle of 1967 happens and suddenly the long lost passion Yawkey had for the Sox has revived, which rankled Dick Williams who saw Yawkey as a Johnny come lately. And that friction eventually led to his firing. Yawkey spends the last years of his life passionate about the Sox, but a simmering ownership power play eventually erupts 7 years after his death on Tony C night, a tribute to Conigliaro who had suffered a stroke and was in a coma. The classless LeRoux vs Sullivan and Mrs. Yawkey fight breaks out, Yawkey eventually wins but realizes Sullivan's shortcomings and replaces him in her circle of trust with a reluctant John Harrington who upon her death baby sits the Sox for a decade leaving them in limbo until he finds a real owner. Enter Henry and Werner who do everything to win over a skeptical fanbase who preferred local owners because they want somebody who loves the Sox as much as they do and doesnt just see them as a business. Henry intends to hire Billy Beane and modernize the Sox on hopes of winning and is fortunate when Beane accepts and then changes his mind and Theo Epstein is waiting in the wings and just like that, competent ownership, a competent young man making the moves, money being poured into the team and the Sox are finally a winner. Drama ensues as Theo sees things in the levels above him that rankle him. He leaves but is persuaded to come back, they win again but eventually Theo sees more that he doesnt like, and he's bound for Chicago. But Henry is still invested in his team and they win a surprise championship, rebuild with a new core, pour more money into the team and the greatest Sox team of all time wins the series with ease. Then Henry sees an expensive Sox team that plays hung over in 2019 and notices Tampa for a fraction of the cost has become better so he hires Bloom to run things, trading Mookie a priority. Somewhere along the way Henry becomes more preoccupied with his growing empire and the Sox are just another entity to him and acquisitions become more of a focal point to him. The Sox slide into mediocrity with the exception of one fun surprise season, money stops being poured into the team, there's a malaise around the team and fan base and even some wishes he'd sell if he's lost interest. My long history lesson shows that the Sox have had owners who are engaged with the Sox, but can lose interest the way a cat can when they have a new toy and get tired of it and eventually neglect it. I hear the, "they won four titles" argument as evidence that you're foolish if you want them to sell. I don't know about that. Imagine being an Oakland A's fan in 1978. The A's are in a downward spiral because Charlie Finley doesn't want to invest in his team and doesn't like how there is a market and that it's crazy in his view. Yeah, but the A's won 3 straight championships from 72 - 74, his backers would say. As an A's fan in 1978 would you want him to sell? I would. Past glory isn't always an indicator of an ownership's current level of commitment to the team. As history shows, ownership can be mercurial. I had started to lean in the perhaps they should sell category, although I wasn't firmly planted into that view as of yet. The hiring of Theo gives me hope that even if Henry really isn't in to the Sox as he was once at least he has somebody very competent keeping an eye on them which is the next best thing so that assuages a lot of my concerns for the time being. That's how important I think this hire is. The knowledge of Red Sox history behind this post and the ability to articulate that knowledge in solid writing are amazing.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 3, 2024 11:22:59 GMT -5
The one thing I feel confident in saying is that this current ownership wants to run the Red Sox at a profit. There's too many investors, so they aren't going to be able to get away with running the Sox at a loss. And I'm not sure they really had run them at a loss in past years either, but NESN revenues likely were huge then. Expecting us to compete with the Mets and the team of the year (i.e. Padres) is going to set us up for disappointment each year. But you'd think this fan base generates enough revenue to be a top 5 spender. That's the piece of the equation I can't wrap my head around, that we aren't a top revenue fanbase. But if NESN is hemorrhaging and the investors want Red Sox + NESN to be profitable, maybe that's the source of the downward spend. Saying that the owners don't care anymore, or that their investment in PGA changes how they thinking about running the Red Sox, just doesn't make any sense to me. I know that's a popular hot take and it's the easy road to take, but it's not logical. FSG is a conglomeration of many entities that individually each have a goal to return a profit. Makes sense what you're saying. I get it, but think back to when Henry first got the team. I don't remember worrying about the Sox just being some part of a portfolio that's supposed to just be a profit enterprise. Oh no doubt making a profit was always the objective from Day 1, wouldn't argue that. It's just that beating the Yankees and winning the World Series and John Henry being visible and accountable for all that was what we were seeing. The focus shifted away from the Red Sox and toward expansion and other entities. I agree it's not that the owners don't care about the Sox anymore - they do want them to make money - it's that the Sox aren't the priority anymore. They simply have not been. As far as the NESN thing, just as an aside, I didn't think anything of this then, but now I wonder. I was one of those who was annoyed that NESN never put out an official video commemorating the greatest Red Sox team of all time - I mean that sucker could have gone for about 2 hours with all the amazing highlights and wins they had in 2018. They had put out videos for 2004, 2007, and 2013. Hell they even put out a video called Cowboy Up in 2003 for a team that didn't even make the Series. Now I get that there was some overlap between the official World Series video and the videos NESN put out, but it's not like the World Series videos focused that much on the regular season, but still, I looked forward to seeing both. But when it didn't come out in 2018, I called NESN to complain about it and was basically told that MLB was charging too much for usage of the World Series video footage and that they had done half hour segments commemorating the season on their Sox related programming, but basically it was too expensive to make those videos. I found myself thinking, what the hell is that??? Maybe that was when I should of realized that maybe NESN wasn't the cashmaking cow I thought it was? Maybe there is something to the NESN wasn't doing as well - it certainly isn't now as people have tuned out. I mean, I love the Sox, but I was flipping channels and finding other things to watch as the season wore on the last two years, although you have to spend money to make money and I'm sure if the Sox put together a compelling team NESN will start to make more money, but I just thought that experience from 2018 was a bit odd. Maybe it meant something. Maybe it didn't. But I didn't think NESN would tell me that it was too expensive to make a commemorative video. Too bad. I wish there had been. They won 108 regular season games. That doesn't happen often and just six years later it's a blur. Kind of wished they had done a video that truly dove into that amazing season.
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Post by foreverred9 on Feb 3, 2024 12:12:49 GMT -5
I would agree with you, we as a fan-base in the 2000s didn't feel the "pain" of turning a profit but for some reason we are now. That's really the confusing part.
They probably were making a profit in the 2000s but that might have been an era where they were able to optimize their revenue. They found ways to make money - NESN was churning out fantastic ratings in the 18-49 demographic for advertisers, merchandise sales were booming, and they were creating new ways to generate revenues (i.e. concerts, monster seats, Game On) that allowed them to boost revenue to then cover the payroll.
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Post by lancect on Feb 3, 2024 12:36:05 GMT -5
I look at it this way. This is the best ownership group the Sox ever had. Period. You look back and before Tom Yawkey there wasnt a lot of continuity. They won titles but ownershio changed often in those early days. They won twice under Joe Lannin but he wound up selling to Harry Frazee, who did everything he could to make sure the Sox had the best team they could have in 1918. The Sox won the Series and eventually he got tired of Babe Ruth's demands for money, sold him, had originally intended to replace him with quality players, but had become enemies with AL President Ban Johnson by then as he was considered an outsider and was on his own island with Johnson's other enemies, the Yankees, who had cash, were rising, and wanted to win, and a ruined White Sox team. Frazee got frustrated, and gave up, as the Sox at that point, were hardly his passion, given that the theater was his first love and he wrecked the club and gave the Yankees the beginning of their dynasty. I would say by early 1919 Frazee was well regarded in Boston. Within a few years he was a pariah. He sold the club finally to Bob Quinn who had a backer with money, but that backer died and Quinn was left with a decimated team and no money and no hope. Eventually Tom Yawkey buys the team and pours a ton of money into it getting guys like Foxx, Grove, and Ferrell, but over time he starts to lose interest and sinks deeper into an alcoholic fog by time the 50s roll around. No wonder the requirement to be his GM was to be his drinking buddy. Too bad racial tolerance wasn't a requirement. By the 60s Yawkey has been sick and has started to dry out. He has long neglected the club and eventually left it to the one competent man he had left to run it, Dick O'Connell, which had been a departure from his drinking buddies. The Sox are a mess. Yawkey is finally sober and his main desire is to get a new ballpark or move the team, perhaps to Milwaukee to replace the Braves who had just relocated to Atlanta. Then thanks to the competence of O'Connell, farm director Neil Mahoney, and Dick Williams, the miracle of 1967 happens and suddenly the long lost passion Yawkey had for the Sox has revived, which rankled Dick Williams who saw Yawkey as a Johnny come lately. And that friction eventually led to his firing. Yawkey spends the last years of his life passionate about the Sox, but a simmering ownership power play eventually erupts 7 years after his death on Tony C night, a tribute to Conigliaro who had suffered a stroke and was in a coma. The classless LeRoux vs Sullivan and Mrs. Yawkey fight breaks out, Yawkey eventually wins but realizes Sullivan's shortcomings and replaces him in her circle of trust with a reluctant John Harrington who upon her death baby sits the Sox for a decade leaving them in limbo until he finds a real owner. Enter Henry and Werner who do everything to win over a skeptical fanbase who preferred local owners because they want somebody who loves the Sox as much as they do and doesnt just see them as a business. Henry intends to hire Billy Beane and modernize the Sox on hopes of winning and is fortunate when Beane accepts and then changes his mind and Theo Epstein is waiting in the wings and just like that, competent ownership, a competent young man making the moves, money being poured into the team and the Sox are finally a winner. Drama ensues as Theo sees things in the levels above him that rankle him. He leaves but is persuaded to come back, they win again but eventually Theo sees more that he doesnt like, and he's bound for Chicago. But Henry is still invested in his team and they win a surprise championship, rebuild with a new core, pour more money into the team and the greatest Sox team of all time wins the series with ease. Then Henry sees an expensive Sox team that plays hung over in 2019 and notices Tampa for a fraction of the cost has become better so he hires Bloom to run things, trading Mookie a priority. Somewhere along the way Henry becomes more preoccupied with his growing empire and the Sox are just another entity to him and acquisitions become more of a focal point to him. The Sox slide into mediocrity with the exception of one fun surprise season, money stops being poured into the team, there's a malaise around the team and fan base and even some wishes he'd sell if he's lost interest. My long history lesson shows that the Sox have had owners who are engaged with the Sox, but can lose interest the way a cat can when they have a new toy and get tired of it and eventually neglect it. I hear the, "they won four titles" argument as evidence that you're foolish if you want them to sell. I don't know about that. Imagine being an Oakland A's fan in 1978. The A's are in a downward spiral because Charlie Finley doesn't want to invest in his team and doesn't like how there is a market and that it's crazy in his view. Yeah, but the A's won 3 straight championships from 72 - 74, his backers would say. As an A's fan in 1978 would you want him to sell? I would. Past glory isn't always an indicator of an ownership's current level of commitment to the team. As history shows, ownership can be mercurial. I had started to lean in the perhaps they should sell category, although I wasn't firmly planted into that view as of yet. The hiring of Theo gives me hope that even if Henry really isn't in to the Sox as he was once at least he has somebody very competent keeping an eye on them which is the next best thing so that assuages a lot of my concerns for the time being. That's how important I think this hire is. Outstanding stuff right here! Great history lesson, and I share your hopeful vision of what is happening, thank you!
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Post by puzzler on Feb 3, 2024 12:52:21 GMT -5
I would agree with you, we as a fan-base in the 2000s didn't feel the "pain" of turning a profit but for some reason we are now. That's really the confusing part. They probably were making a profit in the 2000s but that might have been an era where they were able to optimize their revenue. They found ways to make money - NESN was churning out fantastic ratings in the 18-49 demographic for advertisers, merchandise sales were booming, and they were creating new ways to generate revenues (i.e. concerts, monster seats, Game On) that allowed them to boost revenue to then cover the payroll. And add in the fact that everything has gotten more expensive. I mean Red Sox tickets have always been extremely high; the last time I was in Fenway was in 2003 and it was the most expensive baseball game I had ever been to, in terms of everything, not just tickets. As much as many people rightfully grouse about ticket prices, I wouldn't be surprised if the margins are not nearly as high for FSG as they used to be.
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Post by julyanmorley on Feb 3, 2024 12:53:52 GMT -5
That MassLive article makes it sound like Theo is going to be the surrogate owner of the Red Sox
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Post by wOBA Fett on Feb 3, 2024 14:12:47 GMT -5
That MassLive article makes it sound like Theo is going to be the surrogate owner of the Red Sox Which makes the most sense. Henry doesn't own a team anymore, he owns a portfolio of teams. Hopefully, they let Theo make the ownership decisions for the Red Sox.
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Feb 3, 2024 18:10:53 GMT -5
That MassLive article makes it sound like Theo is going to be the surrogate owner of the Red Sox I’m not sure about that. Another article lists among his immediate tasks 1) helping Liverpool recover from the sudden resignation of their Belichick (who was still at the top of his game) and b) figuring out the Penguins FO mess. I have to believe that he’ll have a special, semi-permanent role with the Sox, as a go-between from Breslow to Henry/Werner, but it seems like that will be a small fraction of what he’ll be doing. It sounds a lot like his title should be John Henry’s fixer and that he’ll be spread just as much among the various FSG entities as Henry is reported to have been (by Cotillo via a source called “within” FWIW - he sure seems to have his finger on the pulse of every disgruntled agent or employee associated with the Sox). Theo probably still knows more about virtually every baseball player over the age of 18 than just about anyone, so it makes sense that he should have a bigger role with the Sox than with, say, RFK Racing, but maybe that will be an ad hoc sideline compared to his overall “executive coach” duties.
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Post by wkdbigsoxfan on Feb 3, 2024 19:09:13 GMT -5
The Sox need somebody to convince FSG to spend money. Hopefully that is Theo’s top responsibility, he’s done it before. If that happens, everything else will be fine
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Post by GyIantosca on Feb 3, 2024 19:59:02 GMT -5
The Sox need somebody to convince FSG to spend money. Hopefully that is Theo’s top responsibility, he’s done it before. If that hppens, everything else will be fine[/qu Like a voice in the room a respected one. I think it's a positive move. What drives me mad this team could easily grab Snell and Montgomery. If they do wow. I can only dream. I wish we had one more Bello coming up. I mean at AAA.
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Post by harv on Feb 3, 2024 20:30:21 GMT -5
I'm not sure spending more money will help at this point. How many starting pitcher contracts for pitchers >30 have worked out? Its a crap shoot at best. Sale for example, was pretty healthy in his 20s and did help us to a series win, but the last few years were a huge overpay. Price was a disaster. Beckett was probably the best case. Paying high price free agent pitchers on the second contract can supplement a strong pitching staff, but it can't be used to build one. Our offence has always been pretty solid, and this year should be no different. But sox pitching, especially starting pitching, is weak and likely to keep us out of the playoffs. And short-term prospects don't look great. Only 2 of the top 10 prospects and 4 of the top 20 are pitchers; 20% where it needs to be 50% or more given the failure/injury rate of pitchers. I think ownership recognizes this hence bring in a (hopefully) pitching guru in Breslow. A steady flow of pitching prospects, a few of whom end up as solid contributors, is the only answer. Adding Theo to the mix can only help. He has a strategic view and the hope is he will help guide the building of a consistent winner
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Feb 9, 2024 9:50:31 GMT -5
Interesting new piece on the possibilities for Their and Breslow: "Epstein’s biggest contributions, insofar as the Red Sox are concerned, may well be his knowledge of how the team’s ownership works and thinks. He has the cachet and experience to push back, or perhaps even prod them into action. “It would be silly for me not to pose such questions as, ‘Hey, this is an idea I have. No. 1, what are your thoughts on it? But also, No. 2, what do you think Sam (Kennedy), or John (Henry) or Tom (Werner) or Mike (Gordon) might feel about this?’ " said Breslow. “Often times, he encourages me to just communicate directly with them. ‘Why don’t you ask?’ Which is very often the best advice one can give."" www.masslive.com/redsox/2024/02/mlb-notebook-reunited-with-theo-epstein-craig-breslow-details-how-theyll-work-together.html
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Post by congusgambler33 on Feb 9, 2024 13:01:56 GMT -5
I'm not sure spending more money will help at this point. How many starting pitcher contracts for pitchers >30 have worked out? Its a crap shoot at best. Sale for example, was pretty healthy in his 20s and did help us to a series win, but the last few years were a huge overpay. Price was a disaster. Beckett was probably the best case. Paying high price free agent pitchers on the second contract can supplement a strong pitching staff, but it can't be used to build one. Our offence has always been pretty solid, and this year should be no different. But sox pitching, especially starting pitching, is weak and likely to keep us out of the playoffs. And short-term prospects don't look great. Only 2 of the top 10 prospects and 4 of the top 20 are pitchers; 20% where it needs to be 50% or more given the failure/injury rate of pitchers. I think ownership recognizes this hence bring in a (hopefully) pitching guru in Breslow. A steady flow of pitching prospects, a few of whom end up as solid contributors, is the only answer. Adding Theo to the mix can only help. He has a strategic view and the hope is he will help guide the building of a consistent winner
Expect the Sox to have a draft such as the angels one year. Draft nothing but pitching.
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Post by bloomstaxonomy on Feb 9, 2024 13:14:40 GMT -5
Interesting new piece on the possibilities for Their and Breslow: "Epstein’s biggest contributions, insofar as the Red Sox are concerned, may well be his knowledge of how the team’s ownership works and thinks. He has the cachet and experience to push back, or perhaps even prod them into action. “It would be silly for me not to pose such questions as, ‘Hey, this is an idea I have. No. 1, what are your thoughts on it? But also, No. 2, what do you think Sam (Kennedy), or John (Henry) or Tom (Werner) or Mike (Gordon) might feel about this?’ " said Breslow. “Often times, he encourages me to just communicate directly with them. ‘Why don’t you ask?’ Which is very often the best advice one can give."" www.masslive.com/redsox/2024/02/mlb-notebook-reunited-with-theo-epstein-craig-breslow-details-how-theyll-work-together.htmlI'm probably reading too much into this, but it's kind of discouraging that he doesn't feel entirely comfortable directly asking questions of his superiors. He's already questioning open communication. He needs Theo to give him what amounts to r/relationships advice. Communication 101.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 9, 2024 13:24:15 GMT -5
Interesting new piece on the possibilities for Their and Breslow: "Epstein’s biggest contributions, insofar as the Red Sox are concerned, may well be his knowledge of how the team’s ownership works and thinks. He has the cachet and experience to push back, or perhaps even prod them into action. “It would be silly for me not to pose such questions as, ‘Hey, this is an idea I have. No. 1, what are your thoughts on it? But also, No. 2, what do you think Sam (Kennedy), or John (Henry) or Tom (Werner) or Mike (Gordon) might feel about this?’ " said Breslow. “Often times, he encourages me to just communicate directly with them. ‘Why don’t you ask?’ Which is very often the best advice one can give."" www.masslive.com/redsox/2024/02/mlb-notebook-reunited-with-theo-epstein-craig-breslow-details-how-theyll-work-together.htmlI'm probably reading too much into this, but it's kind of discouraging that he doesn't feel entirely comfortable directly asking questions of his superiors. He's already questioning open communication. He needs Theo to give him what amounts to r/relationships advice. Communication 101. That's how I kind of read it. Sounds like the ownership group has other priorities going on.
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Post by greatscottcooper on Feb 9, 2024 13:48:34 GMT -5
I'm not sure spending more money will help at this point. How many starting pitcher contracts for pitchers >30 have worked out? Its a crap shoot at best. Sale for example, was pretty healthy in his 20s and did help us to a series win, but the last few years were a huge overpay. Price was a disaster. Beckett was probably the best case. Paying high price free agent pitchers on the second contract can supplement a strong pitching staff, but it can't be used to build one. Our offence has always been pretty solid, and this year should be no different. But sox pitching, especially starting pitching, is weak and likely to keep us out of the playoffs. And short-term prospects don't look great. Only 2 of the top 10 prospects and 4 of the top 20 are pitchers; 20% where it needs to be 50% or more given the failure/injury rate of pitchers. I think ownership recognizes this hence bring in a (hopefully) pitching guru in Breslow. A steady flow of pitching prospects, a few of whom end up as solid contributors, is the only answer. Adding Theo to the mix can only help. He has a strategic view and the hope is he will help guide the building of a consistent winner
Expect the Sox to have a draft such as the angels one year. Draft nothing but pitching.
How did that work out for the Angels? I’m not opposed to taking an extra pitcher or two in the draft and drafting some of those guys earlier as well, but drafting all pitching can fail quite horribly.
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ematz1423
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Post by ematz1423 on Feb 9, 2024 14:08:09 GMT -5
I'm not sure spending more money will help at this point. How many starting pitcher contracts for pitchers >30 have worked out? Its a crap shoot at best. Sale for example, was pretty healthy in his 20s and did help us to a series win, but the last few years were a huge overpay. Price was a disaster. Beckett was probably the best case. Paying high price free agent pitchers on the second contract can supplement a strong pitching staff, but it can't be used to build one. Our offence has always been pretty solid, and this year should be no different. But sox pitching, especially starting pitching, is weak and likely to keep us out of the playoffs. And short-term prospects don't look great. Only 2 of the top 10 prospects and 4 of the top 20 are pitchers; 20% where it needs to be 50% or more given the failure/injury rate of pitchers. I think ownership recognizes this hence bring in a (hopefully) pitching guru in Breslow. A steady flow of pitching prospects, a few of whom end up as solid contributors, is the only answer. Adding Theo to the mix can only help. He has a strategic view and the hope is he will help guide the building of a consistent winner
Expect the Sox to have a draft such as the angels one year. Draft nothing but pitching.
The Angels are not exactly the type of team I would look at and say hm let's copy them. They're a horribly run organization.
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Post by julyanmorley on Feb 10, 2024 16:02:58 GMT -5
www.masslive.com/redsox/2024/02/mlb-notebook-reunited-with-theo-epstein-craig-breslow-details-how-theyll-work-together.htmlKind of some weird quotes tbh. Sam Kennedy also said that this is a stepping stone for Theo or something like that. Right now I think what happened is they sold Theo .25% of FSG or something like that at an obviously below market rate, and he's not able to sell his share for three years or something. He has no kind of employment agreement at all except that he probably genuinely enjoys chatting with Craig Breslow about the team and would like to do things that impress future groups that would like to buy sports teams.
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