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2012 MLB Non Sox
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Post by texs31 on Nov 14, 2012 15:35:38 GMT -5
Nah. I'd move him back to 1B.
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steveofbradenton
Veteran
Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,826
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Post by steveofbradenton on Nov 14, 2012 20:15:36 GMT -5
Congratulations to David Price and R. A. Dickey on winning their Cy Young's!
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Post by elguapo on Nov 15, 2012 21:44:15 GMT -5
Cabrera wins MVP. I think a lot of writers voted for him just to spite the whole idea of sabermetrics. Odd because in most other contexts they'd be all up in arms championing baserunning & fielding, the complete player, throwback, etc.
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Post by sibbysisti on Nov 15, 2012 22:00:47 GMT -5
Fat guys rule!
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Nov 15, 2012 22:15:53 GMT -5
Cabrera wins MVP. I think a lot of writers voted for him just to spite the whole idea of sabermetrics. Odd because in most other contexts they'd be all up in arms championing baserunning & fielding, the complete player, throwback, etc. You dumb statheads don't understand what a complete player Jimmy Rollins is
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Post by jmei on Nov 15, 2012 22:26:10 GMT -5
I mean, he won the triple crown and was the first position player to do so since Yaz in 1967. Cabrera's team also made the playoffs while Trout's did not. I'm as much of a stathead as anyone and I'm not very upset about Cabrera winning. I certainly don't think it was any sort of eff you to sabermetrics.
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Post by elguapo on Nov 15, 2012 22:34:20 GMT -5
I mean, he won the triple crown Fair point - that's awarded for leading the league in hitting, fielding, and baserunning, right?
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Nov 15, 2012 23:43:58 GMT -5
I mean, he won the triple crown and was the first position player to do so since Yaz in 1967. Cabrera's team also made the playoffs while Trout's did not. I'm as much of a stathead as anyone and I'm not very upset about Cabrera winning. I certainly don't think it was any sort of eff you to sabermetrics. First off, tying team performance and player performance is silly. We all know that. But let's do it anyway! Trout's team won more games in a much tougher division. And, the Angels went 8-15 in April while Trout was in the minors. Then he got called up and they played .591 ball the rest of the way. His team outplayed the Tigers in general, and they outplayed the Tigers by a lot when he was actually playing for the team. The argument for Cabrera is "triple crown equals MVP, because shut up, that's why". That's it.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Nov 16, 2012 0:07:09 GMT -5
I've watched a lot of baseball over the years and I haven't seen as impressive an all around performance as Mike Trout put on for a very long time. A few commentators have mentioned Bonds when he was just starting out with Pittsburgh. He was a cut above everyone else when he came onto the scene, and Trout fits that profile. I'd call him a 5-tool player, but I believe his toolbox is better stocked than that: discipline, selectivity, baseball instincts, you name it and he showed it. There should be plenty more chances for the guy, but I believe this one should have had his name on it.
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Post by jmei on Nov 16, 2012 0:32:58 GMT -5
Look, you're preaching to the choir here. But we all know the old white men who vote on this thing aren't the most progressive baseball minds in the world. When offensive performance based on the simplest counting/rate stats are close, factors like making the playoffs and historical mumbo jumbo matter a lot for those guys. In ten years noone will be citing RBIs anymore, but it'll take time to get to that point.
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Post by jdb on Nov 16, 2012 9:03:47 GMT -5
Not to mention the Tigers played 57 games vs KC (10th in AL in ERA), Twins (13th) and Indians (14th). The 2012 central was really one of the worst divisions i can remember. The media did hype this up as the new age baseball vs the old school and I cant help but think that swayed some voters away from Trout and the fact the Tigers made the playoffs in a much weaker division put Miggy over the top. I cant be convinced Miggys season was better than Trouts.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Nov 16, 2012 10:42:08 GMT -5
It's actually much easier to argue that Adrian Beltre or Justin Verland had a better season than Cabrera than it is to argue that Cabrera had a better season than Trout. There's basically two reasons to vote Cabrera. Option one, you're just absolutely dead-set in the 1970 mindset of BA/RBI/HR being the be-all, end-all measure of a player and unwilling to even consider any arguments contrary to that. Or option two, it's a "stick it to the bloggers" vote; a desperate attempt by the old-line sportswriters to assert that they're still know best, they still have access to special information that no one else does; in short that they're still the authority on these matters. (My next paragraph relates to the recent presidential election; please no political arguments, I only bring this up because it's an excellent example of old school/new school media conflict) Just look at the hatred that rained down on Nate Silver from old-school political pundits leading up to the election. For instance, Peggy Noonan, who said that Nate Silver didn't know what he was talking about because she took a drive and she saw way more Romney lawn signs than Obama lawn signs ( I s--- you not, she really made this argument). What this exposes is a mindset that simply having an important position at a major newspaper is what makes you an authority. It doesn't matter that her options are literally based on nothing more than gut feelings and silly concepts like "momentum", her opinions are valuable because she's a Very Important Person at a Very Important paper. 70 years ago when there were no other outlets, that was actually kind of true. Not that their status made them any more right about these matters, but readers simply didn't have a choice. Then some uppity blogger like Nate Silver comes along and says no, your credibility isn't based on who you are or where you work or who you hobknob with at DC cocktail partys, it's based on your methodology and the actual measurable accuracy of your predictions. And it makes these people very mad to see their authority challenged-- especially when the person challenging it is so clearly right. And so you get a backlash, where people are actually willing to be totally wrong about fairly easy question just to assert that, no, really, they know something you don't know. My experience matters, my guy feelings matter, etc etc. I know this is a long rant about something that ultimately doesn't really matter, but it really does bother me, because it's an insult to Mike Trout. It's an insult to the game of baseball in general that when a kid comes up and has the greatest rookie season in a generation (and really one of the great seasons ever, no qualifiers needed), and it goes unrecognized not because of anything the kid did, but because some old newpaper guys are butthurt that people on Twitter refuse to recognize that simply printing your opinion on some dead trees doesn't make it valid. The sad part is, by digging in their heals on this, they're only hastening their own demise. And they're dragging the validity of the MVP award down with them.
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Post by James Dunne on Nov 16, 2012 12:05:32 GMT -5
What's funny is the crotchety old geezers who argue Triple Crown=MVP, but Ted Williams didn't win the MVP in either year that he got the Triple Crown. I guess because he wasn't a good interview or something. So really, tying the MVP directly to the Triple Crown isn't even an oldschool way of thinking, it's simply anti-intellectual claptrap.
Also, FTHW, anyone who gets the opportunity to take a shot at Peggy Noonan in a baseball blog gets a thumbs up in my book.
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Post by patrmac04 on Nov 16, 2012 12:34:06 GMT -5
What this exposes is a mindset that simply having an important position at a major newspaper is what makes you an authority. It doesn't matter that her options are literally based on nothing more than gut feelings and silly concepts like "momentum", her opinions are valuable because she's a Very Important Person at a Very Important paper. 70 years ago when there were no other outlets, that was actually kind of true. Not that their status made them any more right about these matters, but readers simply didn't have a choice. Ron Burgundy: I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany Sent from my SGH-T999 using proboards
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Post by jmei on Nov 16, 2012 13:57:36 GMT -5
Melky Cabrera signs with the Blue Jays for two years, $16m.
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Post by elguapo on Nov 16, 2012 15:34:52 GMT -5
I read several sentences of awful (grammar, logic, composition) in the Globe regarding the MVP vote before I realized the writer was Eric Wilbur. Serves me right for a) reading the Globe and b) not checking the author.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Nov 16, 2012 16:01:47 GMT -5
Melky Cabrera signs with the Blue Jays for two years, $16m. Value signing of the year.
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Post by elguapo on Nov 16, 2012 16:10:46 GMT -5
Better than the Gary Matthews Jr signing, anyway.
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Post by jmei on Nov 16, 2012 16:40:30 GMT -5
Melky Cabrera signs with the Blue Jays for two years, $16m. Value signing of the year. It's a bet that going forward, Cabrera is going to play more like 2011-12 Melky as opposed to 2005-2010 Melky. 2011-12: .322/.360/.489, 4.38 WAR/600 PAs (.352 BABIP, .167 ISO, 10.1% HR/FB) 2005-10: .267/.328/.379, 0.56 WAR/600 PAs (.290 BABIP, .112 ISO, 6.1% HR/FB) Given the limited years and AAV of the deal, I think that's a great bet since Melky just needs to be league-average to be worth what he's paid and he certainly has tons of upside to be better than that, especially since he's only 28 years old. But it's not an absolute slam dunk if it turns out Melky was only so good in 2011-12 because of PEDs and BABIP/HR luck.
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Post by James Dunne on Nov 16, 2012 16:51:31 GMT -5
He doesn't need to be 2011-2012 good to be worth $8 million a year though. Given what Cody Ross is likely to make, Cabrera at that price is a very smart gamble.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Nov 16, 2012 16:56:09 GMT -5
What's funny is the crotchety old geezers who argue Triple Crown=MVP, but Ted Williams didn't win the MVP in either year that he got the Triple Crown. I guess because he wasn't a good interview or something. So really, tying the MVP directly to the Triple Crown isn't even an oldschool way of thinking, it's simply anti-intellectual claptrap. Also, FTHW, anyone who gets the opportunity to take a shot at Peggy Noonan in a baseball blog gets a thumbs up in my book. Mich Albom proves my point better than I ever could: www.freep.com/article/20121116/COL01/311160108/detroit-tigers-miguel-cabrera-mvp-awardOMG, guys.
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Post by James Dunne on Nov 16, 2012 16:58:05 GMT -5
The number of triples hit while wearing a certain colored underwear at least measures something that the player did himself, and is therefore a more useful statistic than runs batted in.
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Post by jmei on Nov 16, 2012 17:00:03 GMT -5
He doesn't need to be 2011-2012 good to be worth $8 million a year though. Given what Cody Ross is likely to make, Cabrera at that price is a very smart gamble. I agree with you, but just wanted to illustrate the fact that it is a gamble and there is risk involved for the Blue Jays. If he goes back to hitting .260, that contract will be market-value at best.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Nov 16, 2012 17:04:35 GMT -5
The number of triples hit while wearing a certain colored underwear at least measures something that the player did himself, and is therefore a more useful statistic than runs batted in. The whole thing is so ridiculously trollish and cliched it's hard to even get mad at it. The zingers are all so old they could vote. It reads more like an Onion parody of itself.
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Post by James Dunne on Nov 16, 2012 17:08:06 GMT -5
It's hilarious too, because 20 years ago, when offensive statistics was starting to explode, dinosaurs like Albom were whining "all the offense is making the game less fun, what has happened to all of the speed and defense!"
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