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The Sox at the Break: Why Are They Contenders?
danr
Veteran
Posts: 1,871
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Post by danr on Jul 13, 2013 11:21:12 GMT -5
The Red Sox are doing far better this season than most experts predicted. Many of us did not expect the Sox to be contenders (although several on this board did predict success). So why has this happened, and can it be sustained, not only this year, but into the future? Discuss.
The best analysis I have read is on ESPN. I don't think a subscription for this is required: www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/68396/the-2013-red-sox-dont-call-it-a-comeback
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Post by ray88h66 on Jul 13, 2013 11:37:41 GMT -5
I didn't think they would contend. Some reasons I think they are.
Better starting pitching than I thought they'd get. Lackey most of all.
Big Papi not just having a Papi year but one of his best years in his late 30's.
Much better defense than last year. Jacoby back in center, Victorino better than I thought he could be in right (hope he can play enough in the second half). And amazing D up the middle. Drew, Dustin and Iggy have really flashed the leather.
Nava became a solid every day player.
Toronto is no were near as good as I thought they'd be.
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Post by jmei on Jul 13, 2013 11:55:56 GMT -5
Something I harped on in the offseason in response to the calls to sign Hamilton or Greinke is that there is more than one way to build a team. Having a lineup with no below-average players and a rotation with no below-average starters means, ipso facto, that you have a very good team, even if you really only have one true "middle-of-the-order bat" or one "ace." Combine that with excellent depth and unexpected excellence from a few standouts (Buchholz, Lackey, Iglesias), and you have the best team in the AL. I also agree with the Grantland article that the 2012 Red Sox seemed a lot worse than they actually were. If it wasn't for the multitude of crippling injuries and the terrible replacements that the front office had to turn to, that might have been a borderline playoff team. PS: this thread was a fun re-read: forum.soxprospects.com/thread/326/satisfied-offseason-far
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Post by sarasoxer on Jul 13, 2013 12:35:53 GMT -5
I didn't think they would contend. Some reasons I think they are. Better starting pitching than I thought they'd get. Lackey most of all. Big Papi not just having a Papi year but one of his best years in his late 30's. Much better defense than last year. Jacoby back in center, Victorino better than I thought he could be in right (hope he can play enough in the second half). And amazing D up the middle. Drew, Dustin and Iggy have really flashed the leather. Nava became a solid every day player. Toronto is no were near as good as I thought they'd be. I would add the fact that the team has returned to the days of grinding out at bats and working counts consistently and top to bottom. The Sox lead the majors on OBP. Individually in addition to the players you have mentioned I highlight Mike Carp, Iglesias & Salty.
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steveofbradenton
Veteran
Watching Spring Training, the FCL, and the Florida State League
Posts: 1,826
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Post by steveofbradenton on Jul 13, 2013 13:22:20 GMT -5
I have tried to understand how this team is doing it when I look at few players having anything close to "career" years. Ellsbury has been solid, but I expected him (and Pedroia) to hit more homers. Napoli, for me, has been surprisingly not much of a power source either. Lester has been somewhat disappointing. Our 2 original closers have been hurt or in Bailey's case...inconsistent.
For me the biggest reason we are on top of the standings is the amazing depth Ben Cherington has assembled on our bench and in AAA. We keep bringing up guys who contribute for one game or several when it is needed. This team (and 40-man roster) are to be applauded for their grit and desire. I doubt there is any other team that compares currently with our depth.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Jul 13, 2013 13:49:06 GMT -5
"For me the biggest reason we are on top of the standings is the amazing depth Ben Cherington has assembled on our bench and in AAA"
Along with tremendous rotational depth and BP, or until Miller went down.
The flow of Iglesias, JBJ, Lavarnway, Holt, Snyder, Webster,and even Wright to come up and produce at key points to allow victories has been amazing.
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danr
Veteran
Posts: 1,871
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Post by danr on Jul 13, 2013 14:13:13 GMT -5
Something I harped on in the offseason in response to the calls to sign Hamilton or Greinke is that there is more than one way to build a team. Having a lineup with no below-average players and a rotation with no below-average starters means, ipso facto, that you have a very good team, even if you really only have one true "middle-of-the-order bat" or one "ace." Combine that with excellent depth and unexpected excellence from a few standouts (Buchholz, Lackey, Iglesias), and you have the best team in the AL. I also agree with the Grantland article that the 2012 Red Sox seemed a lot worse than they actually were. If it wasn't for the multitude of crippling injuries and the terrible replacements that the front office had to turn to, that might have been a borderline playoff team. PS: this thread was a fun re-read: forum.soxprospects.com/thread/326/satisfied-offseason-farYou and I, and some others, had some lengthy arguments over this subject, and I now concede that you were mostly right. I use the word mostly because I don't think any of us expected the seasons that Lackey, Ortiz and Nava have had, to say nothing of Iglesias. However, you argued and the Grantland article shows why you were right, that upgrades of a few positions from pretty bad to reasonably decent could have a significant effect, and it has.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Jul 13, 2013 15:30:02 GMT -5
The relentless sort of offense the Sox have constructed from spare parts, journeymen, and emerging talent, to go along with the core of Ellsbury, Pedroia, and of course Ortiz, was what a few of us suggested might get them above .500. Honestly, though, I thought that they'd end up somewhere between 83 and 87 wins. I settled on 85 as a nice round number, the mundane average of that range. In retrospect the unreal amount of horrible luck the team suffered through over the last season+ had to regress at some point. I guess this is it. Don't know that they can continue on this trajectory for the remainder of the season, but they'd have to crater badly, going 25-40, to merely fall back to my original projection. So it's looking good.
And yes, a few of us did see Nava as capable of exactly what he's doing: stellar OBP, and a bit of pop to go with it. I never expected this sort of return from Iglesias I'll admit, but given the horrible regression for Middlebrooks that's little more than a wash - except for the defense which is just transcendent. The others - Gomes, Drew, Victorino - have been right where a lot of us thought they might be, with Napoli however below expectations, but Carp far above.
At least for the first month or so, both Lester and Buchholz looked like the aces that a few of us, again, thought they could be. I for one suggested that Lackey's rehab, what with the 95-96 mph fastball that was being reported, was a harbinger of what might be a very good season. The guy has always known how to pitch. What he was pitching with was the real problem. With that taken care of thanks to TJ, there was all the hope in the world he'd shine again and so he is. The guy has always known what he's doing on the mound, and he's picked up the slack even as Lester has hit the bumps in the road.
The team made some very judicious moves. Tazawa no more belongs in the minors than I belong in the majors. And Uehara is some sort of magician, but the evidence was already there in his previous seasons with Baltimore and Texas as he conjured up ridiculous K/BB rates, with strikeout totals that have only gotten more stratospheric. A great, great pickup. The team has been so fortunate with its Japanese relievers over the years, you'd think the FO would all be wearing kimonos.
Hanrahan was a mistake - the team is allowed one or two - but Holt almost makes up for that one. Breslow, Miller before he was hurt, and even Bailey if he can get it back together, are a nice mix from the bullpen. I largely ignore the team relief numbers, as those are subject to tremendous bias from a handful of games that get completely out of hand. In the Sox' case, Hanrahan was hurt though he didn't want to acknowledge it apparently, and Bailey is still coming back from his surgery. That, along with performances such as Workman's the other evening as he got his feet wet, make the numbers look crazy. Anyone who's watched the team, though, knows that the opposition probably hate to see Breslow, let alone Tazawa and Uehara, warming up.
The real benefit from having a plan and sticking to it comes now. No panic, no giving up future value for nominal present returns. They can pick and choose who they want to move, while keeping the real assets stashed away on the farm. I liked Jacobs and I think he has a decent chance of becoming a regular in the majors. But he was expendable given the options in front of him. Picking up players such as Thornton, who's had a very good career, for second-tier talent means you're in the drivers seat. Let's see how far this model takes them.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Jul 13, 2013 16:46:03 GMT -5
Most people thought I was wildly optimistic with a 91-93 win projection but I missed on a lot of things also. I thought Ortiz was potentially going to tank but I thought we had a solid chance of Buchholz, Lackey and Lester being well above average and our other starters had a chance of being average. That was key to me, along with what looked like a major pen upgrade. Pitching alone can carry a team and a healthy Lackey looked like it could be a major game change. Why not? Lackey was real solid for a long time until he was hurt.
I didn't project Nava, Salty or Iglesias doing this well but I thought Ellsbury would potentially approach 2011 form and that alone would carry us a lot. We clearly had more depth than almost any other team and history has drilled that need into the Sox FO very well.
I thought Drew would actually be better and Middlebrooks would end up a real solid # 5 hitter. So much for that. Didn't see Carp coming at all. Basically got lucky I guess.
And of course I thought Lavarnway would potentially play himself into the starting lineup by now. As he should be already! Who the hell is Salty! The only guy in baseball luckier than Iglesias.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Jul 13, 2013 17:07:09 GMT -5
I wonder if they can continue this but it sure looks like they can. Even with Buchholz being down they are still winning. I do think we need him back soon of we will start losing our lead some to a team like the Rays or Baltimore though. Lackey should stay strong and Doubront is looking good but I see more gopher balls in Dempster's near future and Lester is not the same pitcher he was earlier in the year.
To me, what might take us over the top is if a Bogaerts, Middlebrooks or Cechinni emerge as Ellsbury did a few years ago just before the playoffs and we get at leaast some help from a AAA pitcher ala what Price did for the Rays when he first came up. I'd love to see Iggy stay at SS and a real solid 3rd base guy emerge with a plus 850 OPS near the end of the year. Hopefully Carp / Napoli being platooned more provides more of an edge there. I'd rather trade Gomes and ride the JBJ train at this point. He is a better sub to me with more overall usefullness. We could use one more solid reliever.
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