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7/22-7/25 Red Sox vs. Rays Series Thread
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2013 21:25:23 GMT -5
Everyone is going to forget Dempster's terrible start last night in which he allowed 5 runs over 5 1/3 innings. Everyone forgets because they won. Now Workman, who pitched considerable better, (6 innings, 2 runs) will be remembered, because he got an "L" in his stat column. What I am saying is, we can't judge Workman just because he lost. He easily pitched well enough to get a win. If he had pitched last night, there would have been no need for extra innings. Unfortunately, the Sox were shut out by Moore today.
I think Workman is a very good pitcher and I want him to hold that rotation spot until Buchholz is back, and I hope that he gets a permanent rotation spot next year. I think being in the bullpen is a waste for him, because he is a work-horse type that can work deep into starts. I really don't care for Dempster much anymore. I never really like his signing in the first place. Really, he was signed for stability, innings, and clubhouse presence. He has been anything but stable and he is only averaging 5.78 innings per start, but HE IS providing good clubhouse presence. Either way, he is vastly overpaid for how he is performing. I would be fine with it if he was traded over the off-season, even if it meant taking some of his salary. He just is not meant to pitch in the A.L. East in a big market like Boston.
In conclusion, I hope no one jumps to conclusions on Workman today because of the "L" in his stat column. He pitched very well, and I think he will continue to do so. I also see no point in trading for a starter before the deadline. It will take a lot to get one, likely good prospects, the future of the team, and there is no guarantee that started traded for will pitch well. Workman is doing just fine in Buchholz's absence and I really think he will be a solid #3 starter now and in the future, in Boston, NOT TRADED.
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Post by Guidas on Jul 22, 2013 21:33:49 GMT -5
The good news is that Workman seems like he'll do just fine until Buchholz comes back. Gave us a quality start and a chance to win. Out of all 4 games, this was by far our worst match up. Also, Owens apparently had a dominant performance tonight. You win some you lose some. Just be glad we didn't unload the farm for Garza today. Texas didn't unload the farm and they got him. Basically Theo got a do over from when he picked Vitek over Olt, a #5 starter, and an A ball pitcher who projects as a 7th inning guy. Unfortunately, he got the do over in Chicago. Not saying I wanted Garza, but that's not the farm as Olt reminds a lot of people of Middlebrooks with the big power and big K rates. He's had great OBP in the minors, but the near 25% K rate is alarming and causes many to wonder if he can sustain the OBP success in the majors with such high swing and miss rates.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Jul 22, 2013 22:02:33 GMT -5
I'm trying to find comfort in being straight up owned by the better pitcher on a given night. However, I lose it all envisioning this for the next 5 years before the Ray's can't afford to meet his Ace like salary demands. They've been better than us 4 of the last 5 years. Next 5 will probably be similiar. Considering there is no salary cap and until last year no cap on how much you spend on the regular and int'l draft. It's an amazing job they've done considering the financial advantage the Sox have enjoyed.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 22, 2013 22:14:58 GMT -5
Everyone is going to forget Dempster's terrible start last night in which he allowed 5 runs over 5 1/3 innings. Everyone forgets because they won. Now Workman, who pitched considerable better, (6 innings, 2 runs) will be remembered, because he got an "L" in his stat column. What I am saying is, we can't judge Workman just because he lost. He easily pitched well enough to get a win. If he had pitched last night, there would have been no need for extra innings. Unfortunately, the Sox were shut out by Moore today. I think Workman is a very good pitcher and I want him to hold that rotation spot until Buchholz is back, and I hope that he gets a permanent rotation spot next year. I think being in the bullpen is a waste for him, because he is a work-horse type that can work deep into starts. I really don't care for Dempster much anymore. I never really like his signing in the first place. Really, he was signed for stability, innings, and clubhouse presence. He has been anything but stable and he is only averaging 5.78 innings per start, but HE IS providing good clubhouse presence. Either way, he is vastly overpaid for how he is performing. I would be fine with it if he was traded over the off-season, even if it meant taking some of his salary. He just is not meant to pitch in the A.L. East in a big market like Boston. In conclusion, I hope no one jumps to conclusions on Workman today because of the "L" in his stat column. He pitched very well, and I think he will continue to do so. I also see no point in trading for a starter before the deadline. It will take a lot to get one, likely good prospects, the future of the team, and there is no guarantee that started traded for will pitch well. Workman is doing just fine in Buchholz's absence and I really think he will be a solid #3 starter now and in the future, in Boston, NOT TRADED. Relax. I doubt anybody here is "judging" Brandon Workman because he took the loss. The posters' opinions here vary a lot, but I doubt any of us think that W/L record is the best way to judge a pitcher. My 10 month old son could tell you the Sox lost today because they had no chance against Matt Moore today. And unless Workman was pitching a shutout which he wasn't - they had no chance to win. He pitched well tonight, but I wouldn't jump to conclusions that he should be a starter and stay in the rotation for next year or beyond Buchholz's return. He's had two nice starts. That's good, but I recommend you look up Vaughn Eshelman who was fantastic his first two starts or Juan Pena who pitched well in his first two and ultimately last two starts. I wouldn't get overly excited for his presence in the rotation yet, especially given that the scouting report on him seems to be that he will probably ultimately be a better fit in the bullpen. I think Workman could help the Sox in the pen perhaps fulfulling the role that Aceves had in 2011. The Sox starters usually don't make it past six. He could do a good job bridging that gap to Uehara. Dempster is a mediocre innings eater as you say. Don't think his clubhouse chemistry means a heckuva lot when he's giving up his walks and homers the way he has been. He's a guy who's been healthy enough to take regular turns in the rotation, a guy who's below average but better than replacement level and thus has value.
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Post by godot on Jul 22, 2013 22:16:19 GMT -5
Not to take anything away from Moore or the idea we need another bat, but most of the Soxs did play until 1:00 a.m last night. Just trying to be optimistic.
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Post by jmei on Jul 22, 2013 22:31:56 GMT -5
This is exactly the type of pitching they'll see in the playoffs. I know we need a pen arm, and I would love a guy like James Shields (who would save the pen as well with his typically long starts) but this team needs a high OBP bat to extend this line-up and increase offensive opportunities. Leafing the league in runs is great, but if you can't hit guys like this, you won't get anywhere in the post season. True, a lot of BBIP bad luck tonight. But not a lot of working the count or making this guy sweat. Tough game all around. I mean, it's not like they scored 7 runs off Sabathia last night or anything, right? Or that there's 7 starters with OBPs above .340, including four above .370 (that's four of the top 11 OBPs in the AL), and that the team leads the league in OBP and is second in walk rate? They had a bad night against a good pitcher. Get off the ledge.
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Post by threeifbaerga on Jul 23, 2013 0:53:18 GMT -5
. . . "Leading the league in runs is great, but they need a bat."
Just let that sink in.
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danr
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Posts: 1,871
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Post by danr on Jul 23, 2013 1:26:03 GMT -5
What's that line, "Good pitching beats good hitting, and vice versa..."
The principal problem the Sox have in trying to stop Tampa, winning the division, and the WS, is that the Sox do not have a single starting pitcher as good as at least a couple of Tampa's. I'm not counting Buchholz, at least until he shows he can be counted on.
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Post by sarasoxer on Jul 23, 2013 7:05:06 GMT -5
Relax. I doubt anybody here is "judging" Brandon Workman because he took the loss. The posters' opinions here vary a lot, but I doubt any of us think that W/L record is the best way to judge a pitcher. My 10 month old son could tell you the Sox lost today because they had no chance against Matt Moore today. And unless Workman was pitching a shutout which he wasn't - they had no chance to win.
He pitched well tonight, but I wouldn't jump to conclusions that he should be a starter and stay in the rotation for next year or beyond Buchholz's return.
He's had two nice starts. That's good, but I recommend you look up Vaughn Eshelman who was fantastic his first two starts or Juan Pena who pitched well in his first two and ultimately last two starts. I wouldn't get overly excited for his presence in the rotation yet, especially given that the scouting report on him seems to be that he will probably ultimately be a better fit in the bullpen.
I think Workman could help the Sox in the pen perhaps fulfulling the role that Aceves had in 2011. The Sox starters usually don't make it past six. He could do a good job bridging that gap to Uehara.
Dempster is a mediocre innings eater as you say. Don't think his clubhouse chemistry means a heckuva lot when he's giving up his walks and homers the way he has been. He's a guy who's been healthy enough to take regular turns in the rotation, a guy who's below average but better than replacement level and thus has value.[/quote]
As I recall though, Juan Pena was injured and never recovered.
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Post by James Dunne on Jul 23, 2013 7:41:27 GMT -5
I still haven't gotten over Juan Pena.
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Post by Guidas on Jul 23, 2013 7:44:45 GMT -5
. . . "Leading the league in runs is great, but they need a bat." Just let that sink in. So I want a Manny Ramirez in his prime behind Papi in the line-up. Is that so bad? But I won't be piggy. Any .380+ OBP guy will be fine. Preferably by tonight please.
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Post by mgoetze on Jul 23, 2013 8:12:35 GMT -5
. . . "Leading the league in runs is great, but they need a bat." Just let that sink in. So I want a Manny Ramirez in his prime behind Papi in the line-up. Is that so bad? But I won't be piggy. Any .380+ OBP guy will be fine. Preferably by tonight please. So you want to move Pedey or Iggy to the 5-slot? Personally I would be happy enough with .379 OBP... that's what Carp is at this season BTW. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Post by Guidas on Jul 23, 2013 8:17:07 GMT -5
It was just frustrating to see so few batters working the count last night. Moore was definitely on, but "grinding out at bats" doesn't often happen when folks are first pitch swinging. And like I said, BBIP unlucky all night as well.
But yeah, I'll take .379 OBP in a pinch.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Jul 23, 2013 8:57:45 GMT -5
It was just frustrating to see so few batters working the count last night. Moore was definitely on, but "grinding out at bats" doesn't often happen when folks are first pitch swinging. And like I said, BBIP unlucky all night as well. But yeah, I'll take .379 OBP in a pinch. Disagree about the BABIP. Looked like lots of pop-outs, weak grounders and lazy fly balls. Not sure which ones you were expecting to fall. Ellsbury hit a flare to left, nothing remotely approaching the warning track. We got dominated. Luck didn't have a damn thing to do with it. No running catches up the gap like Ellsbury made. Longoria made 2-3 good plays. Nothing spectacular.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Jul 23, 2013 9:15:07 GMT -5
So I want a Manny Ramirez in his prime behind Papi in the line-up. Is that so bad? But I won't be piggy. Any .380+ OBP guy will be fine. Preferably by tonight please. So you want to move Pedey or Iggy to the 5-slot? Personally I would be happy enough with .379 OBP... that's what Carp is at this season BTW. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) Yep.. Get Carp in more games at 1B vs RHP and get Lava in way more games Vs lefties when Salty can't hit lefties at all, even when he's on one of his rare hot streaks. Not hard to find guys on the bench who hit good, the team actually has guys all over it who are playing well. It's ppl like Drew, Salty and earlier Middlebrooks who are/have been the problem all along.
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Post by jmei on Jul 23, 2013 9:32:02 GMT -5
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Post by awall on Jul 23, 2013 10:02:00 GMT -5
Big start for Lester tonight. He's well rested and if there's ever a chance for a pitcher to make a statement (good or bad) it's this game for him.
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Post by GyIantosca on Jul 23, 2013 11:10:53 GMT -5
They have a big decision on Lester a team option for 14 million. Then he is up and will be looking for John Lackey money 16-17 million per year. Doesn't look good for his future to me.
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Post by mgoetze on Jul 23, 2013 11:12:48 GMT -5
I sincerely hope Uehara-san will stay with the Red Sox for another 5 years. By the way, Moore reminded me a bit of Uehara yesterday... throwing rather plain fastballs (94 mph is of course faster than Uehara but still nothing special) somewhere near the middle of the strike zone and leaving batters just looking dazzled, not many pitchers can do that.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Jul 23, 2013 11:34:44 GMT -5
I sincerely hope Uehara-san will stay with the Red Sox for another 5 years. By the way, Moore reminded me a bit of Uehara yesterday... throwing rather plain fastballs (94 mph is of course faster than Uehara but still nothing special) somewhere near the middle of the strike zone and leaving batters just looking dazzled, not many pitchers can do that. Long, long time since the team had a middle/setup reliever for 4-5 years (Mike Timlin) and oddly enough? Around the same age when he joined Boston (37) I don't really see Koji sticking around another 5 years, but like you, have also been clamoring all season for the Sox to extend him another 2Y and then try to get another team option on a 3rd at just about any reasonable cost. He's as valuable as Bard was in his hey-day and Timlin before him, nobody in between and that covers pretty good amount of relievers that have passed through the BP doors. The team should START now at 2/12m and an option @7-7.5m on year 3, if that fails? Offer him arbitration after the season as a less than 6y player.
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Post by tjb21 on Jul 23, 2013 12:44:34 GMT -5
The principal problem the Sox have in trying to stop Tampa, winning the division, and the WS, is that the Sox do not have a single starting pitcher as good as at least a couple of Tampa's. Lackey blows.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 23, 2013 12:55:04 GMT -5
As I recall though, Juan Pena was injured and never recovered. That's right. He got injured and never pitched again. I think around that time (maybe a little later) they had Paxton Crawford who never amounted to much, Jin Ho Cho, and the ever Peter Gammons hyped Robinson Checo from a few years earlier. I don't recall Pena to be much of a prospect. I recall him being inconsistent in the minors. Did look good during his two starts though. I think it was 1999 if I recall correctly when the Sox had Pedro, a broken down Bret Saberhagen, a broken down Ramon Martinez, an ineffective Mark Portugal and Pat Rapp and the kids, Brian Rose and Juan Pena, and they somehow won 94 games.
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Post by hammerhead on Jul 23, 2013 13:12:20 GMT -5
This thread is very frustrating to read. It's a combination of Small sample size hysterics and Boston pre-2004 pessimism.
The Red Sox are a very good team. It took the Rays to go on a near historic streak just to catch them. This idea that the Rays are walking away with the AL East is silly. They had a very good pitcher throw a very good game last night. That isn't going to happen much.
I wouldn't make any bold predictions on where a player starts based on two starts or a couple months of AB's . People were going nuts for IGGY, but now that he's coming back to earth like a jet-liner's petrified chemical toilet discharge you aren't hearing anything. Will Middlebrooks was great, now he sucks, then he should be called back up, now he sucks again. Workman should start he's being wasted in the bullpen... yada , yada, yada
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Post by rangoon82 on Jul 23, 2013 13:14:36 GMT -5
Apparently Ells is sitting tonight against Fausto Carmona? You'd think facing an RHP with a 4.80 era would be good for him...?
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Post by mgoetze on Jul 23, 2013 13:24:58 GMT -5
Apparently Ells is sitting tonight against Fausto Carmona? You'd think facing an RHP with a 4.80 era would be good for him...? And good for Scott Boras? ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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