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Post by wcsoxfan on Nov 14, 2013 14:58:21 GMT -5
Yeah, you had me until I saw the words "Yuniesky Betancourt." It's also interesting to see a proposal with 11 pitchers and 5 bench players. Has any team in recent history used that roster configuration in the regular season for any sustained amount of time? Ozzie Guillen is all for it - 2011 White SoxSorry mangosalsa, but it is hard to take you seriously after suggesting the Red Sox spend 8mil on a guy who has been worth -4.6 war over the last 5 years. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that no player in MLB history has been as bad, for as long, as Yuniesky Betancour. (although I would like to see someone prove me wrong) Holt would be a cheaper, and no worse, option.
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Post by bigpapismangosalsa on Nov 14, 2013 14:58:28 GMT -5
You guys are totally correct on Wilson being projected to get 2yrs / $12-$16M. I just missed it in his projections when I was looking, so totally my bad. That said, even if you split that and call it 2yrs / $15m for Wilson, that leaves the Sox with "$4m" left.
I'm also fine with the idea of making the infield back up someone like Juan Uribe (I agree, Betancourt isn't particularly good, but again, in my scenario you're not promising him any manner of real time), at the projection of around 2yrs / $11m, bringing them down to $1.5M left. Or substitute someone like Cesar Izturis or Brendan Ryan, who cannot hit, but provide flexibility. The bottom line is to get someone where Middlebrooks plays every day, and see what he's capable of.
If Hudson does in fact go for more like 2yrs / $20M, he to me is the one you spend on.
For the record, on Heyman's notes, I don't think Napoli will be quite that expensive, nor do I think that for Saltalamacchia either, so the numbers with Hudson could well work out as is, and allow for signing someone like Uribe as well.
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Post by Guidas on Nov 14, 2013 15:37:05 GMT -5
I think based on his performance in LA this year Uribe will seek out and get a starting job with commensurate money.
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Post by bigpapismangosalsa on Nov 14, 2013 16:16:36 GMT -5
For the most part, I agree Guidas, and I thought about that first, which is why I went to Betancourt instead of Uribe initially. If you look at the list of free agent types that can handle both ss and 3b, it's not an appealing list. So I admit that I was overpaying for someone that can technically play both positions, not necessarily doing either one well. Someone on the team, like Brock Holt, I don't think has ever played ss before in the majors. As bad as Betancourt's bat has been, guys like Izturis, Ryan, Andino, and others that have played before at both positions are amazingly even worse. For those who have been better, will likely hold out for a starting spot, as you mentioned. Michael Young might be the only moderately decent bat, but is exceptionally unlikely to take a back up role, and really cannot play defense at all any more. Certainly don't think Betancourt would be good, but I think he can provide more insurance than a lot of names that are free agents, though I am totally open to hearing who people might think are better in the role. I also have no desire to trade an asset for someone I don't want taking at bats away from Middlebrooks or Bogaerts anyway.
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Post by hammerhead on Nov 14, 2013 16:30:33 GMT -5
Betancourt might be one of the only available FA's who is an overpay at the Major League minimum. I really doubt that he'd be better than Brock Holt and even though Holt has never played SS for the Sox Holt is probably better defensively as well. That position (utility infielder/25th roster spot) can be found on just about every AAA team in baseball, someone with some upside who is being blocked or undervalued by their current org. You simply invite them on a minor league contract with an invite during ST. Heck you invite a couple of these types to camp and the hot hand makes the team.
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Post by bigpapismangosalsa on Nov 14, 2013 16:34:27 GMT -5
Yeah, fair points all around. I consider myself corrected on Betancourt and the contract. Just leaves more money to throw at the 7th starter types to stash in Pawtucket, or into any Dempster or Peavy trade to increase the prospect return.
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Post by elguapo on Nov 14, 2013 16:36:42 GMT -5
Ivan De Jesus will make a terrific utility infielder for some team - he's a minor league free agent.
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Post by jmei on Nov 14, 2013 16:44:09 GMT -5
So is old friend Yamaico Navarro (who is killing it in the DWL, by the way). Navarro definitely can't play SS, though, while De Jesus might be able to.
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Post by soxfan94 on Nov 14, 2013 17:58:32 GMT -5
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I wanted to wait until all of the qualifying offers had been decided upon before posting what I'd like to see the Red Sox do this off-season. Now that each of those have been declined, I'll tackle this topic. Just a couple of quick points to set the proverbial stage for my arguments: 1) Last year was phenomenal, and I loved that team the most of any once since the 2004 squad, easily surpassing 2007 and 2008, and a bit more than that 2003 team, mostly because of how damn likable these guys were; 2) As great as last year was, I don't want to go off the deep end and think we're in a "win now" mode by any stretch. Last year's team over-performed pretty drastically, even Cherington mentioned they only projected somewhere in the high 80s for wins, and that type of a run cannot be expected again; 3) The future is very bright. We don't have a lot of stupid money on the books, any really, and the farm system is both top heavy and very deep; 4) My goal is to build a team that can be very competitive again next year, without sacrificing the future, and as part of that, I want to break in the kids. In this post, I'm mostly going to stay away from the "big trades" with multiple moving pieces, and focus again on short term signings and some smaller deals around the periphery. I don't see any realistic signing from this FA class that I would give up a draft pick for (Cano is obviously worth one, but I think if the Sox get in on the bidding, the Yankees will offer $1m per year more to, literally, any final offer the Sox have. Like others, I'd set the budget at 5yrs / $100m for Ellsbury, and I don't think that gets it done, so I'm assuming he's gone). Also, in using my contractual figures, I'm using a lot of what Heyman predicted (along with an unnamed agent and GM on CBS recently). For the Sox budget, I'm using the $32m that Speier came up with since he is much smarter than I am. I would approach Lester about the parameters of a new extension, and assuming some reasonable middle ground can be found, he moves into my "untouchable" group along with Ortiz, Pedroia and Bogaerts, and wouldn't deal any of them short of some GM going Dodgers-level crazy (which I equate to somewhere between a 3rd world despot and the hot red headed chick in Wedding Crashers). Other than that, I'd listen intently on offers made for anyone else, but wouldn't exactly be looking to move them unless someone came up with a very attractive offer. Anyway, here goes... First off, I would trade both Peavy and Dempster to whatever team offers a combination of both being willing to eat $10m of the salary and then gives up the best prospect. I think that there are plenty of teams, specifically in the NL, that would find either of these guys at 1yr / $10m to be exceptionally valuable. I'd target either OF prospects since there isn't much other than Bradley Jr and maybe Brentz, and the best "bats" available. I'll guess Dempster to the Brewers for Victor Roache and Peavy to the Pirates for Josh Bell. New spending budget becomes $52m. Re-sign Mike Napoli to a 3yr/$39M contract. Of that deal, I'd write in protection for the Sox based on number of games played / missed in 2014 and 2015, due to the hip conditions obviously. The first $13M is of course guaranteed. This gives Napoli "in essence" a 4yr / $52m deal figuring in last year, and protects the Sox from the hip deterioration. Budget stands at $39m left. Re-sign Jarrod Saltalamacchia to a 3yr / $27m contract. This is a huge raise for Saltalamacchia, but the Sox keep it to a 3yr deal. This allows Vazquez a full year in AAA and Swihart plenty of time starting in AA. It also would not be an onerous contract to move should one of those two force the issue during the deal. ($30m left). Sign Chris Young to a 2yr / $15m contract. He becomes the outfield super-sub, and as a center-fielder by trade, is of course insurance for both Bradley Jr and the time that Victorino might miss. He also has destroyed RHP in his career to the line of .262/.363/.474/.837, and my guess is he gets somewhere around 400 plate appearances this season. ($22.5m left) Sign Tim Hudson to a 2yr / 15m contract. He is now the 5th starter. That might be a slight over-pay, but is a worthwhile risk in my opinion for his upside. ($15m left). Sign Yuniesky Betancourt to a 2yr / $8M contract. He backs up the left side of the infield, and still pretty much allows Middlebrooks to play every day, in my opinion. ($11m left). Sign Brian Wilson to a 1yr / $4m contract. ($7m left). I would use the remaining $7m to increase the prospect value in a Peavy or Dempster trade, and sign the best possible FA starters that would accept a minor league contract to start in Pawtucet for depth just guessing at names like Wang, Garland Harang, etc. These moves give you the following line ups. Against RHP: Nava-lf; Victorino-rf; Pedroia-2b; Ortiz-dh; Napoli/Carp-1b; Bogaerts-ss; Saltalamacchia-c; Middlebrooks-3b; Bradley Jr-cf. Bench: Carp/Napoli, Gomes, Young, Betancourt, Ross. Against LHP: Victorino-rf; Young-cf; Pedroia-2b; Ortiz-dh; Napoli-1b; Bogaerts-ss; Gomes-lf; Middlebrooks-3b; Ross-c. Bench: Carp, Nava, Bradley, Betancourt, Saltalamacchia. For the record, I would not straight up platoon Bradley Jr, but use Young against some of the better LHP we will face. Starters: Lester, Lackey, Buchholz, Doubront, Hudson. Relievers: Uehara (closer), Tazawa, Wilson, Breslow, Miller, Hinojosa (long man, spot starter). Pawtucket rotation: Workman, Ranaudo, Barnes, Harang-type and Garland-type. I think this team would be well positioned to make another run should things break right, would have phenomenal depth in the line up and for the rotation, and would also hold on to all key prospects / young players, while adding two more "top 10ish" prospects to the system. By virtue of bringing back Napoli, not signing any "protected" free agents, and losing Ellsbury and Drew, there would also be three spots somewhere in the top 35 picks in a draft that is supposed to be rather good this year. That's a great position to be in financially, and SHOULD a player like Stanton / McCutcheon / Kershaw / Price become available, they have both the picks to acquire and the money to extend these players. All this and a great 2013 to look back upon fondly - its a good time to be a fan of the Boston Red Sox. Look forward to anyone who wants to agree with or tear apart the plan that I've outlined, but it's what I'd look to do. To me, signing Lester to only a good idea if its 4 years and under. I do not see him pitching well deep into his career.
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Post by GyIantosca on Nov 14, 2013 18:52:18 GMT -5
Next year, C=Ross,3b= WMB, SS= Xander,2b= Petey, 1b= Napoli. DH=ORTIZ. Bench = Carp,Hassan,Brentz.
Lf= Nava/Gomes, Cf= Jackie, Rf = Victorino. SP= Lester,Buch,Lackey,Dempter,Peavy,Felix. RP = Workman,Breslow,Taz,Miller,Koji,Morales,Britton. Thats 26. I would have a couple of battles and the loser goes on the taxi squad from Pawtucket to Boston. Hassan vs Brentz vs Nava 2 out of 3. Britton vs Morales vs Miller. 2 out of 3.
It's kind of boring and I am limited at C. But I plan on giving Napoli some playing time and Keep an eye on Lavarnway, Butler,Vasquez in spring training. Then I would make a decision on Catcher to help out Ross. The only other thing is A back up bench guy but not that important because my left side is very young.
Keep note I think after 2014 the Sox have a ton of expiring contracts. I believe they will intergrate some of the young kids this year because you dont want to do everyone the same year. I think they drop close to 100 million after 2014.
So Bailey is gone maybe a trade, Get picks for Drew,Ells and my own pick. try to keep Napoli. I am not too crazy to keep Peavy and Dempster. But I am not eating salary ,It would have to help the team to deal them. I am interrested in seeing what Hassan and Brentz can do if healthy and also Kalish but I am not expecting anything from him.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 14, 2013 19:35:36 GMT -5
Jrrusso- who's your backup SS?
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Post by wcsoxfan on Nov 14, 2013 19:41:57 GMT -5
Next year, C=Ross,3b= WMB, SS= Xander,2b= Petey, 1b= Napoli. DH=ORTIZ. Bench = Carp,Hassan,Brentz. Lf= Nava/Gomes, Cf= Jackie, Rf = Victorino. SP= Lester,Buch,Lackey,Dempter,Peavy,Felix. RP = Workman,Breslow,Taz,Miller,Koji,Morales,Britton. Thats 26. I would have a couple of battles and the loser goes on the taxi squad from Pawtucket to Boston. Hassan vs Brentz vs Nava 2 out of 3. Britton vs Morales vs Miller. 2 out of 3. It's kind of boring and I am limited at C. But I plan on giving Napoli some playing time and Keep an eye on Lavarnway, Butler,Vasquez in spring training. Then I would make a decision on Catcher to help out Ross. The only other thing is A back up bench guy but not that important because my left side is very young. Keep note I think after 2014 the Sox have a ton of expiring contracts. I believe they will intergrate some of the young kids this year because you dont want to do everyone the same year. I think they drop close to 100 million after 2014. So Bailey is gone maybe a trade, Get picks for Drew,Ells and my own pick. try to keep Napoli. I am not too crazy to keep Peavy and Dempster. But I am not eating salary ,It would have to help the team to deal them. I am interrested in seeing what Hassan and Brentz can do if healthy and also Kalish but I am not expecting anything from him. What happened to Gomes? Who backs-up SS, 3B, 2B & CF?
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Post by Pete Morrison on Nov 15, 2013 12:38:51 GMT -5
I gotta say I am mildly intrigued by adding Dioner Navarro with David Ross as the catching tandem. Adding Chris Young to split time with Bradley and back up the other OF spots, start Carp at 1B and use Nava to fill in behind him at 1B. Either go with Holt or a fungible veteran minimum guy as the back up IF.
For the pitching I think the focus of the off-season spending should be trying to extend Lester, but also adding Hudson if we can move Dempster. I would target Manny Parra as my chief relief target of the off-season, but would be open to bringing back Hanrahan at the right price. I would be non-tendering Bailey.
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Post by Don Caballero on Nov 15, 2013 13:20:35 GMT -5
I would target Manny Parra as my chief relief target of the off-season Fantastic idea, I really love Parra as a pitcher and the peripherals are all solid. I'd sign him in a second.
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Post by jmei on Nov 15, 2013 13:34:12 GMT -5
Parra is a good name to have dug up, but he's a lefty who is much better versus LHH than RHH. He's not useless versus righties, but they have a ton of left-handed relievers already, so I'm not sure how eager they would be to add another.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Nov 15, 2013 14:51:59 GMT -5
Cano's numbers outside of Yankee stadium would probably not be the same. I wouldn't go near a big time contract with him. He's been incredibly durable though. And obviously we do not need him at 2nd.
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Post by James Dunne on Nov 15, 2013 16:16:26 GMT -5
Cano's numbers outside of Yankee stadium would probably not be the same. I wouldn't go near a big time contract with him. He's been incredibly durable though. And obviously we do not need him at 2nd. Cano has better career numbers on the road than at home. Career .312/.359/.503 away from the Stadium. Including .338/.383/.558 in 79 games at friendly Fenway. EDIT: My point isn't that the Red Sox should sign him because of his home numbers, but rather that there's really no evidence that Yankee Stadium has somehow falsely inflated his numbers.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 15, 2013 16:48:45 GMT -5
C'mon James he never said they'd be worse outside Yankee stadium.
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Post by gregblossersbelly on Nov 15, 2013 16:59:18 GMT -5
C'mon James he never said they'd be worse outside Yankee stadium. Sign Cano to play 1b? Xander and WMB playing for nothing on the left side.
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Post by GyIantosca on Nov 15, 2013 17:00:18 GMT -5
Next year, C=Ross,3b= WMB, SS= Xander,2b= Petey, 1b= Napoli. DH=ORTIZ. Bench = Carp,Hassan,Brentz. Lf= Nava /Gomes, Cf= Jackie, Rf = Victorino. SP= Lester,Buch,Lackey,Dempter,Peavy,Felix. RP = Workman,Breslow,Taz,Miller,Koji,Morales,Britton. Thats 26. I would have a couple of battles and the loser goes on the taxi squad from Pawtucket to Boston. Hassan vs Brentz vs Nava 2 out of 3. Britton vs Morales vs Miller. 2 out of 3. It's kind of boring and I am limited at C. But I plan on giving Napoli some playing time and Keep an eye on Lavarnway, Butler,Vasquez in spring training. Then I would make a decision on Catcher to help out Ross. The only other thing is A back up bench guy but not that important because my left side is very young. Keep note I think after 2014 the Sox have a ton of expiring contracts. I believe they will intergrate some of the young kids this year because you dont want to do everyone the same year. I think they drop close to 100 million after 2014. So Bailey is gone maybe a trade, Get picks for Drew,Ells and my own pick. try to keep Napoli. I am not too crazy to keep Peavy and Dempster. But I am not eating salary ,It would have to help the team to deal them. I am interrested in seeing what Hassan and Brentz can do if healthy and also Kalish but I am not expecting anything from him. Gomes is included and my backup SS is not needed because I feel the left side is very young and I will ride and die with Xander. Don't forget this is fluid and can change. Now who has Ben's fax number? I just solve his problem's for next year.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 15, 2013 18:08:57 GMT -5
You need a backup shortstop. You just do even if it's not someone you want playing full time. If Xander got hurt or tweaked something he has to come off. It's not a video game.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Nov 16, 2013 5:29:15 GMT -5
Cano's numbers outside of Yankee stadium would probably not be the same. I wouldn't go near a big time contract with him. He's been incredibly durable though. And obviously we do not need him at 2nd. Cano has better career numbers on the road than at home. Career .312/.359/.503 away from the Stadium. Including .338/.383/.558 in 79 games at friendly Fenway. EDIT: My point isn't that the Red Sox should sign him because of his home numbers, but rather that there's really no evidence that Yankee Stadium has somehow falsely inflated his numbers. I didn't realize that Cano's numbers were so good in Fenway. Maybe we should sign him! I stand corrected. Even his power numbers were not helped that much in Yankee stadium, some boost but not a lot. It's interesting that 3 of the top 10 hitters parks in baseball are in the AL east, and Fenway is not one of them. Maybe it is not surprising that Cano should hit well outside of Yankee stadium also. The AL east appears to be largely a hitters division.
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Post by semperfisox on Nov 16, 2013 8:45:07 GMT -5
Next year, C=Ross,3b= WMB, SS= Xander,2b= Petey, 1b= Napoli. DH=ORTIZ. Bench = Carp,Hassan,Brentz. Lf= Nava/Gomes, Cf= Jackie, Rf = Victorino. SP= Lester,Buch,Lackey,Dempter,Peavy,Felix. RP = Workman,Breslow,Taz,Miller,Koji,Morales,Britton. Thats 26. I would have a couple of battles and the loser goes on the taxi squad from Pawtucket to Boston. Hassan vs Brentz vs Nava 2 out of 3. Britton vs Morales vs Miller. 2 out of 3. It's kind of boring and I am limited at C. But I plan on giving Napoli some playing time and Keep an eye on Lavarnway, Butler,Vasquez in spring training. Then I would make a decision on Catcher to help out Ross. The only other thing is A back up bench guy but not that important because my left side is very young. Keep note I think after 2014 the Sox have a ton of expiring contracts. I believe they will intergrate some of the young kids this year because you dont want to do everyone the same year. I think they drop close to 100 million after 2014. So Bailey is gone maybe a trade, Get picks for Drew,Ells and my own pick. try to keep Napoli. I am not too crazy to keep Peavy and Dempster. But I am not eating salary ,It would have to help the team to deal them. I am interrested in seeing what Hassan and Brentz can do if healthy and also Kalish but I am not expecting anything from him. What happened to Gomes? Who backs-up SS, 3B, 2B & CF? so Napoli resigning is the only move? You need a little turnover after winning the WS.
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Post by bosox81 on Nov 16, 2013 9:09:13 GMT -5
1. Sign Choo. 2. Trade Dempster or Peavy for C.J. Cron (or whatever Angels willing to give). Add Morales if it makes a difference. 3. Something along the lines of Carp for Hanigan. Directly or indirectly. 4. Sign a RHH 1st baseman. (Hart, Konerko, Morse, Youk) 5. Sign competition for Holt for backup INF (DeJesus, Navarro, Barmes, etc) 6. Sign competition for Villareal
LF Choo / CF Bradley / RF Victorino 3B WMB / SS Bogaerts / 2B Pedroia / 1B Nava C Hanigan DH Ortiz
Bench Gomes,Holt(?),Hart/Konerko,Ross
Pitchers - Lester, Buch, Lackey, Doubront, Peavy/Demps --- Koji, Taz, Miller, Breslow, Workman, Britton, Villarreal(?)
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Post by elguapo on Nov 18, 2013 11:41:46 GMT -5
elguapo v.2: All Your Draft Picks are Belong to Us
I'm assuming all additions are via free agency (in this scenior, without surrendering any draft pick and reaping all comp picks), and all subtractions yield only minor league talent, for simplicity's sake.
1. [Win negotiating rights] Sign Tanaka - assume $12M/year. Trade Peavy & Dempster - assume $20M savings (very conservatively). 2. Sign Ruiz 2x10 w/ option/buyout (edit - signed with Phillies while I was posting!) 3. Sign Corey Hart 1x$10 with option/buyout - I want the option on the second year if he comes back strong. Trade Carp, who I like but who has drawn interest from other teams. 3. Sign Rafael Betancourt, Francisco Rodriguez. Trade Miller (I just don't like him as a player and think he's prone to regress.) Assume $10M net. 4. Sign bench players - Chris Young (Casper Wells), Ivan De Jesus, plus Spring Training competition.
That's a shade less than $30M in additional spending compared to Speier's estimate of $30M budgetary room. Plus one heck of a posting fee.
Casper Wells had a horrible line in limited action in the majors in 2013 (quite decent in the minors), but is an excellent defensive OF with a decent track record at the plate. I like him as the reserve OF in this scenario, assuming he's healthy and scouts okay - preferably on a non-guaranteed deal, of course. However, I have room in the budget to add Chris Young instead, so I have.
I've liked Betancourt forever, and think he's a good bet to bounce back away from Coors Field, again assuming health. Rodriguez still gets results and seems to be flying under the radar this offseason.
Lester - Buchholz - Lackey - Tanaka - Doubront Uehara - Tazawa - F. Rodriguez - Betancourt - Breslow - Britton - Workman [swing] Starters: Nava - Bradley Jr - Victorino - Middlebrooks - Bogaerts - Pedroia - Hart - Ruiz - Ortiz Bench: Gomes - C. Wells - De Jesus/Holt - Ross
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