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Boston Celtics 2013-14 Season
wcp3
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Posts: 3,860
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Post by wcp3 on Jan 27, 2014 21:19:36 GMT -5
I think people are tired of the unpolished player who's a great athlete doing next to nothing in the NBA. Gerald Greene was like the 15th pick. He could also shoot a bit though. The fact of the matter is, NBA draft picks bust at a huge rate and that's because these players are so unpolished and GMs have been drafting for ideal upside. I need to know more about Wiggins work ethic and drive to fulfill his potential. Gerald Green wasn't in the same stratosphere as Wiggins coming out of high school. Those "concerns" you're talking about are pretty much what everyone was saying about Andre Drummond coming out of UConn, and he certainly seems to be living up to his high school hype. Guys don't become the #1 prospect for no reason, and they certainly don't get touted as the best prospect since Oden/Durant for no reason. Wiggins is an absurd athlete whose game is tailor-made for the NBA - I'd be shocked if he wasn't a star at the next level.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 27, 2014 23:06:53 GMT -5
I didn't bring up Greene or compare him to Wiggins. And, while you may be ultimately right with Wiggins, the same things were said about Beasley and Williams as well.
It's just silly to compare anyone to Lebron or Durant
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Post by jmei on Jan 28, 2014 1:00:18 GMT -5
The same things were absolutely not said about Beasley or Williams, two players whose ability to score inside at the NCAA level never translated against the size, length, and athleticism of NBA defenders. Wiggins faces an entirely different set of questions-- whether he can make the types of marginal improvements in the various facets of his game that will take him from an above-average regular (the Harrison Barnes comparison was a good one) to a superstar.
There are a lot of lottery busts busts because top draft picks are almost always one-and-done players and it's very difficult to accurately project 18/19-year-olds when pretty much all you have is one year's worth of tape. Very, very few players have both the upside and the present performance to make them a sure-fire superstar at the NBA level and slam-dunk #1 pick. Even Durant had questions coming out, mostly related to whether he would physically mature (remember his inability to bench 185 even once?). The other top draft prospects this year have their questions too-- it's not like Embiid is much more polished than Wiggins, for instance. If you want to argue for other prospects instead, go ahead-- there's an argument to be made for having Embiid or Parker or Exum ahead of him. But calling him an unpolished athlete and dismissing him on that basis alone is pretty ignorant.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Jan 28, 2014 1:53:26 GMT -5
Wiilliams and Beasley were tweeners caught in the 3/4 no mans land. Didn't have the physicality to bang down load nor the atheltesicim to play on the perimeter. Wiggins has the atletiscism to play on the perimeter and is a clear 3 for me so I don't have that type of question for him I would like to see him more on iso but I understand he is at a top college program trying to win games and a loaded roster so he's deferring to me that shows a stronger mentality and a better problem to have than a guy who can't play within a team concept.
I understand that every guy needs to be put through a microscope when making this type of descision but I would like to understand you better here is there something about Wiggin's game that you don't like or is it that you question his #want?
I think I'd take Parker #1 because he is such a polish scorer, though I'd like to see him matchup against perimeter players on defense since he's been playing a lot of 4 even 5 for Duke. Then I'd have Embid because he has shown he can bang download even though he still is growing that part of his game and is a difference maker around the rim on defense. Then I'd have Wiggins and would be thrilled with any of these guys in fact throw in Dante Exum and that's four, there is probably a couple more that would be fine gets.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 28, 2014 8:10:57 GMT -5
I do question the want, and I've admitted its unfair to do so, but unfortunately with the NBA, the track record is long with players who lack the drive and killer instinct to be the best. And since we are all evaluating from the outside, we have to draw questions from the little evidence we have. Therefor, I have serious concerns about him in that regard. While t's an unknown for a lot of players at this point, we have a good bit of info on Andre at this time. www.draftexpress.com/profile/Andrew-Wiggins-6191/Guys with the killer instinct don't get nonchalant in drills and turn it on and off, based on the competition. espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/83047/wiggins-excels-against-top-competition?ex_cid=espnapi_publicIt's better that he plays better vs well competition then bad so perhaps he's like Hanley and gets bored at the lower levels and he'll excel in the NBA. In theory, he should be a safe pick. If he were a baseball prospect, we'd say, his floor is high, because at worst he should be a top defender and rebounder for his position (athleticism and length) with the ability to score in transition, with the potential to be a super star. Unfortunately, very few NBA guys have the maturity to settle into a role like that. For me the NBA is filled with great talents who's games could easily be better if they really cared for it to be. Egos, ignorance and a sense of entitlement usually get in the way. I think Danny is all over this stuff though so if he takes Wiggins I'd be confident at that point especially with Rondo and Stevens in tow. I'm transitioning here, but this is why I think Rondo is vital for the rebuilding process and why I think he's going to be here long term. First, he's a smart dude who is comfortable in his routine and that's now being Stevens buddy and a second coach on the floor. He works his butt off in preparing both physically and mentally (film junky) and he will demand the young guys do the same. Rondo won't accept losing longterm, but he understands it will take a couple years. I think he wants to go through this with the team so the next team is his with his finger prints all over it. He's similar to Garnett and he had to be forced from Minnesota. If Wiggins ended up here, I think it'd be a good environment for him or anyone else. Right now I'm very concern about him being another bust, but I am early in my scouting process so I'll back off that rhetoric for the time being.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 28, 2014 8:36:42 GMT -5
At this point we know the top 5 guys and will ultimately have little choice of who to pick. Draft slot will determine that, if we end up in top 3 then the debates can really heat up. At that point we'll have more info plus March Madness. We do have a second first and a high second that Danny usually does alright with. Some guys I'm interested in. Rodney Hood SG (pipe dream now as he's playing his way into the lottery - if things go bad with the placement of our first pick thn he'd be a nice get. Maybe we get lucky tho and he gets injured before the draft and can't work out Nick Stauskaus SG (second 1st)- great shooter with solid size for a SG. Great shooter with range though, can always find a spot for that and this team could use it. CJ Wilcox SG (second 1st or 2nd rd) - smaller 6'5 w same wing span, but another great shooter.. Older senior Andre Dawkins SG (2nd rd or UDFA) - took last year off for personal reasons stemming from the death of his sister who died on the way to see him play. Great shooter who works on it. Has drive to be best shooter alive and skills to be in the conversation. 5th yr senior will drop his stock. Seems rejuvenated after a year away. As you can tell, I want a knock down three point shooter. This team likes to shoot it from down town. I haven't looked into possible low post players who could play with Sullinger yet, and haven't extensively gone thru all the shooters, but these 4 stand out so far. As you can tell, I am a Duke fan so know them better then most teams. That part of me is hoping Parker and Hood stay another year to team with the incoming stud Freshman class.
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Post by bmitchsox on Jan 28, 2014 18:16:12 GMT -5
Stauskas or Dawkins would be great, i'd love to see us get a sharpshooter. Personally i'd definitely take Parker or Embiid over Wiggins, while Smart and Exum would be a toss up, but they should probably go with Wiggins since we have Rondo at the point.
Seeing as Green and Bass are probably gone before the deadline passes, and the Suns are reported to be willing to add players no to make a run, how about this deal:
Bos: Emeka Okafor, '14 1st Rd Pick (Wizards), '15 1st Rd Pick Phx: Jeff Green, Brandon Bass, Kris Humphries, '15 2nd Rd Pick
Rondo/Bayless/Pressey Bradley/Blue/Bogans Johnson/Wallace Sullinger/Olynyk Faverani/Okafor/Anthony
You figure we could use the Hawks Pick to move up in the lottery, and draft with the Wizards/Vice Versa. The Suns would still have 2 1st Rd's this year. It would also help to pile another pick for next year since next years draft will be just as good as '14 (Okafor, Alexander, Oubre, Mudiay, Turner, Looney, Johnson)
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Post by jmei on Jan 28, 2014 18:27:59 GMT -5
That trade wouldn't work due to salary-matching issues, but a Green+Bass for Okafor trade would work. It would eat into a significant portion of the Suns' cap room in the next few years, though, and I'm not sure Ryan McDonough thinks Green and Bass are good enough players (or that the 2013-14 Suns, even with their addition and the return of Bledsoe, are a good enough team) to be worth mucking up their future flexibility. ADD: This trade seems more likely, with the Celtics also receiving a protected future first-round pick. The Suns don't seem like they'd be terribly interested in Bass (Frye and the Morris twins are giving them good production at PF) but Green seems like a player they'd be interested in.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 28, 2014 19:14:58 GMT -5
Is Bogans contract guaranteed for the next 2 seasons?
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Post by jmei on Jan 28, 2014 19:31:07 GMT -5
No, none of his money in the next two years is guaranteed. He's one hell of a trade chip-- he can be an expiring deal dealt at this year's trade deadline or kept through the new league year and used in a deal after the draft but before trading camp.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 28, 2014 19:38:40 GMT -5
Gotta love the NBA only league where guys are paid millions to sit at home and it's considered a valuable piece
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 28, 2014 22:16:45 GMT -5
Gotta love the NBA only league where guys are paid millions to sit at home and it's considered a valuable piece It's crazy to me, with as much bitching as people do about the MLB CBA (deservedly), how much more broken the NBA is in comparison.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 29, 2014 9:17:10 GMT -5
The NBA is just a joke and the game of basketball is terrible now. It was great 20 or so years ago, but now with all the new rules and all the freak athletes combined with the $$ these guys make, it's just an awful product. It's going to be very hard to fix as well.
I wish they'd go to the hockey draft model with their entry level contracts, etc. Use the NBDL as the AHL. Keep kids who aren't ready in college, but own their draft rights. The NCAA and NBA would both be way better off for it.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 31, 2014 17:40:48 GMT -5
There's a lot of things wrong in the NBA. This season, the best PG thus far (Goran Dragic) and the best SG (Lance Stephenson) are not playing in the all star game because there's a weird way of looking at talent. Even the advanced metrics are a flawed and the whole game has a sort of obsolete vibe to it.
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,860
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Post by wcp3 on Jan 31, 2014 23:57:45 GMT -5
The NBA is just a joke and the game of basketball is terrible now. It was great 20 or so years ago, but now with all the new rules and all the freak athletes combined with the $$ these guys make, it's just an awful product. It's going to be very hard to fix as well. I wish they'd go to the hockey draft model with their entry level contracts, etc. Use the NBDL as the AHL. Keep kids who aren't ready in college, but own their draft rights. The NCAA and NBA would both be way better off for it. Find a new thread to post in?
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Post by jmei on Feb 1, 2014 0:18:51 GMT -5
I've been trying to bite my tongue, but NBA basketball is better now than it's ever been, with more skilled players and more intricate strategy. The economics of a salary cap league are also far more interesting strategically and better for parity than the free for all of MLB. If you disagree, that's fine and I'm not inclined to argue with you here, but let's not derail this thread with that kind of stuff.
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Post by chavopepe2 on Feb 1, 2014 1:23:59 GMT -5
I've been trying to bite my tongue, but NBA basketball is better now than it's ever been, with more skilled players and more intricate strategy. The economics of a salary cap league are also far more interesting strategically and better for parity than the free for all of MLB. If you disagree, that's fine and I'm not inclined to argue with you here, but let's not derail this thread with that kind of stuff. I think the issue with the NBA isn't with the overall quality of the game. The issue is the same as its always been - there are very few teams in any given year that actually have a shot to win a championship. It is the only sport where 95% of the time you can name 3 or 4 teams before the season starts that have a chance to win. This isn't new though - it's been like that forever. It is extremely difficult to win a championship without one of the two or three best players in the league. Sure, it happens sporadically but it is the outlier. I think this is where a lot of the frustration comes from. It incentivizes high risk decisions because - screw it you might as well shoot for the moon rather than get stuck in dreaded mediocrity. It also creates an incentive to tank. How many other sports do teams actively go out and try to lose as much as the NBA? That undermines the integrity of the game to some extent. The NFL and MLB on the other hand both have significantly more parody. Even the worst teams in the league are much more actively trying to win and there are significantly more teams that actually have a shot to win.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 1, 2014 8:18:16 GMT -5
Just because I feel that way doesn't mean I'm still not a fan. Just pissed off at the product right now. Jmei, I'll refrain from responding. All I'll say is I understand what you are saying, agree in principle with some and disagree on some. It's the most difficult league to build a champion in and it's not due to lack of skill from GMs. Just to illustrate Chavo's point. These are the champions back to 1991. There is one team that won without a top 5 player.
Lebron/Wade/Bosh Lebron/Wade/Bosh Dirk Kobe/Gasol Kobe/Gasol KG/Pierce/Allen Duncan/Parker/Manu Wade/Shaq Pistons - outlier team w/out a superstar although Wallace was defensively Duncan/Parker/Manu Duncan/Parker Shaq/Kobe Shaq/Kobe Shaq/Kobe Duncan/Robinson Jordan/Pippen Jordan/Pippen Jordan/Pippen Olajuwon Olajuwon Jordan/Pippen Jordan/Pippen Jordan/Pippen
Back to the Celtics though..
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 1, 2014 8:21:36 GMT -5
The magic won last night, but I have a feeling the Celtics are going to go on a winning streak at some point to separate themselves. Bradley is coming back, Rondo will improve, etc. it's so tight that one decent streak will hurt. Is this the year the Lakers get the next superstar?
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Post by jmei on Feb 1, 2014 10:22:16 GMT -5
I don't disagree with you re:superstars, but that problem is intrinsic to a game where only five players are on the court at any given time and efficient shot creation is paramount. Indeed, that problem is why the NBA is the only league with a draft lottery and the first league to implement a salary cap, but even that isn't enough.
Back on topic: looking at the draft odds, it's pretty important that the Celtics try and maintain at least a bottom-3 record, because after that it becomes steadily harder to land one of the top four picks, and I think there is a clear drop-off after the top four (maybe three, if Exum is just smoke and mirrors). That's going to be tough, and is why I think Bass and Green are probably traded if Danny can find someone willing to give up expirings/young players/picks.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 1, 2014 16:26:37 GMT -5
The draft is deep with shooters and scorers. If the team ends up with a pick in the 5-9 range I'm just going to pray one is like Pierce.
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Post by texs31 on Feb 3, 2014 10:01:59 GMT -5
One quickie comment/reference on the league: One of the ESPN guys did an article on how the biggest problem with the NBA Salary Structure is the Max Contract (I'm paraphrasing as I'm not referencing directly). The fact that Max contracts exist meant that Bron/Wade/Bosh didn't actually leave much money on the table when they joined forces. If that didn't exist, would they really have all left 10-15 million (assuming they could've gotten it)? Probably not. Maybe Miami gets 2 of them together instead of 3 (maybe only 1??) and the other would've joined forces with another star, potentially adding another serious contender. It's an interesting take anyway. As to Boston, more and more I think the plan could (should?) be this: 1. Trade Bass and Green (Wallace, if at all possible but I can't see it unless picks are sent along with his contract) 2. Stay the course through the rest of the season and wait for the draft lottery. 3. If Boston ends up outside the Top 5, I can see them trading the pick with other assets to try and add to Rondo (with Sully and, possibly, Bradley as your other core pieces) 4. If Boston ends up with a top 4-5 pick, they keep it. But what they do next could vary: a) If they get Parker, they could look to move other pieces to get another above avg player (ideally a star but not sure who that could be) and look to re-sign Bradley. Many feel he's, at most, a year away from being a 18+ point scorer. b) If they get Embiid/Wiggins/Exum, they look to trade Rondo and make the hard decision on Bradley. The idea is that those guys may take longer to come along and Rondo may likely walk via Free Agency if the team is more ready to contend. Obviously, no insider info here but that's my gut . . . until something happens at/near the deadline that totally changes my mind.
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Post by jmei on Feb 3, 2014 10:20:30 GMT -5
Bradley is a guy who I try real hard to re-sign at $8-10m a year. His game keeps improving, and he just needs to extend his range a couple feet to start hitting above-the-break 3s at an efficient clip. He's also still only 23, has a dogged work ethic, and is already an elite on-the-ball defender. At the very least, he'll be a very good role player on a tradable deal, but he still has plenty of upside if he continues to improve. He could at least be an Arron Afflalo-esque third-best player on a title contender, and that's worth locking up.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 3, 2014 12:56:11 GMT -5
8-10m... Gross, these are the contracts that kill in the NBA. Bradley will be worth that if he gets to where you think he can and stays healthy, which has never happened to him. He came out of college hurt. I'm not saying someone won't give him that much, but it's a big time risk and not necessarily smart. He should be in the 5-6m range for 2-4 years. He's 23 and can cash in in his next contract if he's earned it.
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Post by texs31 on Feb 3, 2014 13:09:58 GMT -5
Agree it's going to take 8-10. I'd much rather on the 8 side but that's the market, right or wrong, for that type of player (especially given that's he's still quite young).
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