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Post by p23w on Nov 17, 2013 12:46:49 GMT -5
How a thread labeled "Tanaka" morphs into a discussion of NYY homegrown talent and small market Versus big markets reflects on the ethnocentricity of the contributors. Fair enough. To get back to the crux of the situation the posting rules (as they exist) are skewed in favor of the prevailing powers that hold sway in MLB (and to a lessor extent the Japanese league). The player has no say, no choice in the matter. I can't fathom the MLPA settling for anything remotely similar. I believe the voice of the Japanese players needs to be heard vis-à-vis their union. I live with a Japanese born Lady and I am acutely aware of how the slightest sleight is registered. I also came to understand how being a "relief" pitcher was at first viewed by a Japanese person. In that regard I think Uehara has broken new ground in the traditional Japanese mindset. Seeing him on the mound for the final out of the WS was a revelation. I think baseball fans need to try to learn and grow with the internationalization of the game. I remember when Latin Americans bristled at the implied lack of performance under post season pressure when reading American sportswriters. Yes "it is our game". But we chose to share it and we should embrace and respect what others bring to the table, so long as the fundamental rules to the game remain the same. The "Tanaka" situation finds us at a crossroads involving the "business of baseball" on the international playing field. Do we play that game only by our own self imposed rules?
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 17, 2013 16:42:01 GMT -5
I'm not sure what you mean? The posting system is in place so US teams don't raid the Japanese leagues.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Nov 17, 2013 18:17:01 GMT -5
It seems to me to be extremely unfair to Japanese players. Do Japanese teams have any restrictions signing our players and paying them whatever they want? No, but they apparently collude to keep from doing that anyway because they want to keep their cash and not cause player salaries to escalate in their market. The system is designed to exploit Japanese players even after they leave the employment of Japanese teams and the cultural differences between the 2 societies allow that to be acceptable. The players are expected to cooperate for the good of the team, the economy of Japan even in their mind. They are just not nearly as individualistic as Americans but that is probably slowly changing to a degree. It's economic slavery though, even if it is a gilded cage. We pay off Japanese teams and get the talent we want without creating cost escalation with our players from increased Japanese demand. The whole thing is horseshit.
I have a hispanic wife and I understand the cultural issue you brought up. Anything that is even perceived of as a possible aberration, as to where you get seated in a restaurant, can be perceived of as a racial slight. If I hear you saying Japanese players should be treated equal to our own in every way then I agree. I imagine that the system is in place because mlb teams don't want Japanese teams to bid against us for our players so they arranged this system to work out an effective deal with Japanese team managers. They cooporated with the owners in Japan. The Japanese players got the shaft.
It is starting to look like there are big changes on the way. But they may well not be for the better.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 17, 2013 20:49:39 GMT -5
No top shelf American player is going to Japan because it's an inferior league and a different culture. A lot of Russian hockey players play in the NHL for less money then they can get in the KHL because it's a better league and better standard of living here. The system is in place to protect Japanese baseball. It's detrimental to the major leagues to have an agreement where they won't sign Japanese players who are under contract away from Japan. Washed up or never has beens go to Japan to dominate and make some dough.
Say what you want about the posting system being fair or unfair, but players only get posted who ASK for it. Last I check no African was in West Africa back in 1845 asking to be chained up and shipped to the US so they could be challenged on the most competitive plantations in the world. Can we please move off this slavery bullsh...?
If you want to be pissed, be pissed at Japanese baseball for trapping Japanese players in Japan during the best years of their careers and not letting them freely come to the US.
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Post by p23w on Nov 17, 2013 22:13:45 GMT -5
I'm not sure what you mean? The posting system is in place so US teams don't raid the Japanese leagues. I disagree. The main beneficiaries to the existing posting system are the team owners in both countries. The players are treated as chattel. The Japanese are still "raided", just at a lesser, more costly rate. Smart teams like the RS scout Japanese talent (Tazawa) and sign them before they sign a professional contract in Japan. Proven Japanese talent cannot seek employment in the States unless they go through the posting system or after 9 years of service in Japan. |
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Post by p23w on Nov 17, 2013 22:34:20 GMT -5
It seems to me to be extremely unfair to Japanese players. Do Japanese teams have any restrictions signing our players and paying them whatever they want? No, but they apparently collude to keep from doing that anyway because they want to keep their cash and not cause player salaries to escalate in their market. The system is designed to exploit Japanese players even after they leave the employment of Japanese teams and the cultural differences between the 2 societies allow that to be acceptable. The players are expected to cooperate for the good of the team, the economy of Japan even in their mind. They are just not nearly as individualistic as Americans but that is probably slowly changing to a degree. It's economic slavery though, even if it is a gilded cage. We pay off Japanese teams and get the talent we want without creating cost escalation with our players from increased Japanese demand. The whole thing is horseshit. I have a hispanic wife and I understand the cultural issue you brought up. Anything that is even perceived of as a possible aberration, as to where you get seated in a restaurant, can be perceived of as a racial slight. If I hear you saying Japanese players should be treated equal to our own in every way then I agree. I imagine that the system is in place because mlb teams don't want Japanese teams to bid against us for our players so they arranged this system to work out an effective deal with Japanese team managers. They cooporated with the owners in Japan. The Japanese players got the shaft. It is starting to look like there are big changes on the way. But they may well not be for the better. The Japanese have an "immigration" quota on American ballplayers. They have many practices and customs that I find difficult to comprehend. If Tanaka is kept from posting due to the lack of an agreement, then so be it. Ridiculous money aside, I think the RS earn high marks among young Japanese players and fans as a preferred "destination". |
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Post by jmei on Nov 17, 2013 22:40:11 GMT -5
Tazawa is one of four Japanese players who signed with an MLB team before first playing in NPB. The other examples were Mac Suzuki (who got expelled from his Japanese high school and played indy ball in the U.S.), Kazuhito Tadano (who went undrafted by NPB due to a gay porn scandal), and Takumi Numata, who recently signed a minor league contract with the Dodgers but has already been banned for life from Japanese baseball and may still have his MiLB contract revoked ( see here for details). Indeed, after Tazawa signed with the Red Sox, NPB passed the "Tazawa rule", which imposes a multi-year ban (upon their attempt to return to Japan) on amateur players who bypass the NPB draft for MLB. This rule, as well as heavy pressure from both MLB and NPB, has deterred pretty much every attempt by an amateur player to jump straight from Japan to MLB in recent years (see the Shohei Otani odyssey, for instance). The posting system is just another example of a labor market restriction, in the same way that the draft prevents players from signing with the team of their choice (and for higher bonuses) and the pre-arb and arbitration system prevents players from voluntarily switching teams the first six years of their career (and limits their salaries). To compare it to chattel slavery is true to a very limited degree (insofar as freedom of choice is limited in both cases), but represents a gross exaggeration. |
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Post by Oregon Norm on Nov 17, 2013 22:55:18 GMT -5
Can't remember where I read it, perhaps on the Japanese baseball blog from a few years back. The writer made it clear that the profit motive trumps all for many Japanese teams. That probably has something to do with the Tazawa rule. The NPB probably hated the idea that a ballplayer from a league like the Industrial would short-circuit the posting fee.
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Post by p23w on Nov 17, 2013 22:55:47 GMT -5
No top shelf American player is going to Japan because it's an inferior league and a different culture. A lot of Russian hockey players play in the NHL for less money then they can get in the KHL because it's a better league and better standard of living here. The system is in place to protect Japanese baseball. It's detrimental to the major leagues to have an agreement where they won't sign Japanese players who are under contract away from Japan. Washed up or never has beens go to Japan to dominate and make some dough. Say what you want about the posting system being fair or unfair, but players only get posted who ASK for it. Last I check no African was in West Africa back in 1845 asking to be chained up and shipped to the US so they could be challenged on the most competitive plantations in the world. Can we please move off this slavery bullsh...? If you want to be pissed, be pissed at Japanese baseball for trapping Japanese players in Japan during the best years of their careers and not letting them freely come to the US. Plenty of top shelf American player has gone to Japan, if only to resurrect their career. Ever wonder how older Japanese players (mostly pitchers) show up in the U.S.? Japanese baseball DOES NOT need the protection of MLB. They don't have to compete with football, basketball, hockey's does American baseball. If you don't see the inequity of the current posting system to the Japanese player, go back and answer the question about all those older Japanese pitchers signing contracts with American teams of THEIR choice. And FTR Congress banned the importation of African slaves in 1808. |
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Post by p23w on Nov 17, 2013 23:19:16 GMT -5
Tazawa is one of four Japanese players who signed with an MLB team before first playing in NPB. The other examples were Mac Suzuki (who got expelled from his Japanese high school and played indy ball in the U.S.), Kazuhito Tadano (who went undrafted by NPB due to a gay porn scandal), and Takumi Numata, who recently signed a minor league contract with the Dodgers but has already been banned for life from Japanese baseball and may still have his MiLB contract revoked ( see here for details). Indeed, after Tazawa signed with the Red Sox, NPB passed the "Tazawa rule", which imposes a multi-year ban (upon their attempt to return to Japan) on amateur players who bypass the NPB draft for MLB. This rule, as well as heavy pressure from both MLB and NPB, has deterred pretty much every attempt by an amateur player to jump straight from Japan to MLB in recent years (see the Shohei Otani odyssey, for instance). The posting system is just another example of a labor market restriction, in the same way that the draft prevents players from signing with the team of their choice (and for higher bonuses) and the pre-arb and arbitration system prevents players from voluntarily switching teams the first six years of their career (and limits their salaries). To compare it to chattel slavery is true to a very limited degree (insofar as freedom of choice is limited in both cases), but represents a gross exaggeration. Thank you for the history lesson, most of which was unknown by me. I think based on my exposure to Japanese culture that the chattel analogy is not far off from what the is felt by a Japanese. They are very sensitive to what we would call feudal servitude. It plays out the same. The feudal chieftain owns the land and the serfs are bound to the land. The Japanese work ethic is very near manic. The concept of choice is relatively new. What impresses me about the culture is the strength of resolve they have collectively when something "new" gains acceptance. In this case "choice" is fast gaining acceptance in traditional Japanese culture. As with most things Japanese they will choose their own ways to express choice (not entirely as we may perceive it). The notion of "choice" may well be playing out in how the Japanese view and what is acceptable to them when it comes to posting ballplayers. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 17, 2013 23:25:02 GMT -5
I'm not at all saying its fair to the Japanese player; I'm just saying it's not Major League Baseball who's benefitting, it's the Japanese league. I'm also saying comparing it to slavery is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read here. It's borderline insanity.
Can I get an example of an American playergoing to Japan for reasons other then he couldn't hack it equitably in the US?
Small markets certainly are at a disadvantage just not nearly to the degree they use it as a crutch. You can't compare the NFL to other leagues for several reasons including non guaranteed contracts and the fact it's football and nearly every market can fill a stadium regularly and the money brought in is unreal. And on what planet does the NBA do well from a parity standpoint? It's a terrible league.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Nov 17, 2013 23:36:33 GMT -5
The Curt Flood situation is similar. He was offered $100,000 if I remember correctly and was tempted to come back of course for that amount, particularly since they had a great team but it was the principle of the matter which was important to him. The bottom line is that Japanese baseball owners pay their players less and appear to control them for longer in their careers if I remember correctly. And the posting system can make all the difference in the world to restraining their income when they finally have the option to come to the US. To me, the USA should be standing on the principle of treating these guys like anyone else in America. Why do we pay Rakuten potentially $70 mil for God's sake, just for the right to negotiate with Tanaka going forward. The guy should have to buy his freedom.
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Post by jmei on Nov 17, 2013 23:37:43 GMT -5
And on what planet does the NBA do well from a parity standpoint? It's a terrible league. The NBA doesn't do well from a parity standpoint because only five players play at a time, and so having multiple star players becomes a de facto prerequisite to winning a title (having one best-of-five and three best-of-seven playoff rounds doesn't help, either, as "upsets" are much less common). But if you want a system where smart roster construction is actually rewarded, a salary cap does that a hell of a lot better than letting teams spend whatever they want. I mean, the Yankees had five players in 2013 who put up less than 2 fWAR while being paid $10m+ (including two who were paid $23m+) and still only barely missed the playoffs. |
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Post by sarasoxer on Nov 18, 2013 11:29:58 GMT -5
And on what planet does the NBA do well from a parity standpoint? It's a terrible league. The NBA doesn't do well from a parity standpoint because only five players play at a time, and so having multiple star players becomes a de facto prerequisite to winning a title (having one best-of-five and three best-of-seven playoff rounds doesn't help, either, as "upsets" are much less common). But if you want a system where smart roster construction is actually rewarded, a salary cap does that a hell of a lot better than letting teams spend whatever they want. I mean, the Yankees had five players in 2013 who put up less than 2 fWAR while being paid $10m+ (including two who were paid $23m+) and still only barely missed the playoffs. Agree with you jmei 100%. And I don't want to confuse parity with a desire that all teams play .500 ball. Acknowledging life's imperfections, I would like as level a financial playing field as possible. In a perfect world there would be no need for Robin Hood. I want teams to enjoy success from best use their collective talents, brains, teaching skills, hard work, etc.. As people note, rich teams have more margin for error and can take more financial risk. I suspect that they have a relative greater ability to grow revenues over time too. I hope that the cap becomes 'firmer' going forward with quicker acceleration in tax rates. Perhaps it could be 50% the first year and then 100%. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 18, 2013 13:11:24 GMT -5
The Curt Flood situation is similar. He was offered $100,000 if I remember correctly and was tempted to come back of course for that amount, particularly since they had a great team but it was the principle of the matter which was important to him. The bottom line is that Japanese baseball owners pay their players less and appear to control them for longer in their careers if I remember correctly. And the posting system can make all the difference in the world to restraining their income when they finally have the option to come to the US. To me, the USA should be standing on the principle of treating these guys like anyone else in America. Why do we pay Rakuten potentially $70 mil for God's sake, just for the right to negotiate with Tanaka going forward. The guy should have to buy his freedom. I'm not sure if I'm misreading you or you're mistyping what you are trying to say or what. But the posting system only comes into play when the players do not have the option of coming to the US on their own. Once a player accumulates 9 years of service time they are a free agent and free to come to the US on their own accord. No posting system. Complete free agent. If Tanaka waited 2 more years and came to the US as a 27 year old then he'd be a free agent and open to the highest bidder. Tanaka has a choice. He can stay in Japan for 2 years then become a free agent and pick whoever he wants to play for and get all the money for that or he can be posted and go through the posting system. The 9 years of service really isn't all that different than what US players are subject to. In fact, it's basically the same. Wait out your time just like a US player and become a free agent, if that's important to you. US player has 6 years major league service plus 2-3 years of minor league time. If a player wants the financial security, then get posted and negotiate; if they don't like the contract they are being given then they don't have to sign it and can go back to Japan. It's like a Pedroia signing before free agency for financial security. Pedey only has one team he can sign with during that period and it was a team that drafted him so he's never had a choice. Why is the Japanese player at such a disadvantage from the US player? Why does major league baseball honor Japanese league contracts and not just take whomever they want? I'm not going to claim to know all the nuances of why, but these are two majorly influential organizations within their countries so if they are battling with one another it's probably not good for international relations and there could be some pressure on MLB from the Government. The Nomo, Irabu and Soriano situations in the 90's really pissed off the Japanese leagues which is how the posting system started. |
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Post by okin15 on Nov 18, 2013 14:51:09 GMT -5
But it's more like 9 years relegated to AAA. The best players should get a chance to play in the best league. They shouldn't have to wait till age 28+ (when they're in their decline years) to finally get to the toughest league, and they should they shouldn't have to then put in another 6 years underpaid before they can sign as a free agent.
Similarly, MLB teams shouldn't be losing out on this talent pool (and the international viewership it would bring) and shouldn't be forced to pay top dollar for someone who's never played above AAA and also entering their decline years. Look how much more fun the Cuban players have made the game, and just think if we had access to all of the top talent at the Cuban and Japanese level the way the NHL has access to international talent, or the big Euro football leagues have access to the best international talent.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 18, 2013 16:43:22 GMT -5
Tanaka made over 4M last year in what could be equated to his first year of arbitration. Pretty nice haul for a 24 year old.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 18, 2013 16:43:46 GMT -5
Tanaka made over 4M last year in what could be equated to his first year of arbitration. Pretty nice haul for a 24 year old.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Nov 18, 2013 18:33:51 GMT -5
Tanaka is obviously an aberration. If I were a top Japanese prospect in high school, I would seriously consider signing with a US team right there. But we basically never draft these guys at all at that age. It's a form of collusion still.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 18, 2013 19:07:30 GMT -5
Is he an aberration though? I mean how many guys in the Japanese leagues are legit major leaguers? Guys could forgo the draft and go right to a major league team but he'd be banned from Japanese baseball for 3 years from the end of his time with MLB before he could go back. Huge risk for a HS kid.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Nov 18, 2013 22:58:50 GMT -5
Most players we've seen don't hit the posting process by age 25 do they? That is an aberration but possibly closer to the new trend I bet. Darvish posted at about the same age I think. If a guy is a proven commodity in Japan the faster he gets to mlb, the more money he makes maybe.
A top prospect can bounce around USA baseball for a long time before washing out. And the very best ones have a decent track record. It's not like there is a guarantee in Japanese baseball either.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Nov 18, 2013 23:02:18 GMT -5
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 18, 2013 23:02:53 GMT -5
A player requests to be posted. A team can deny it but players request it. Teams cannot post a player without his request. I just don't think there are that many players who'd play prominent roles in the US. More for sure but not a ton of sure bets.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 18, 2013 23:04:45 GMT -5
The talent isn't comparable so salaries shouldn't be. That's like saying the best players in the MLS should make what the guys in the EPL get.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Nov 18, 2013 23:10:11 GMT -5
We should send Scott Boras over there and the problem would be fixed in a month!
One would think that he is already considering it. Why not hire some Japanese Chris Hatfield types and start recruiting in Japan? They find the talent and sell the program, with significant legal acumen on their own. Boras does the heavy lifting over here and takes most of the cash. Good for the player. Good for them as starting in the agent industry. Good for Scott.
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