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5/16-5/18 Red Sox vs. Tigers Series Thread
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Post by Guidas on May 17, 2014 19:30:09 GMT -5
I just effing hate Pierzynski. He's like the 10th Yankee.
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Post by grandsalami on May 17, 2014 19:40:29 GMT -5
This is such a fun game to watch. Yippee!!!!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Post by burythehammer on May 17, 2014 19:55:54 GMT -5
The Big Sleep with his first of many home runs over the monster.
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Post by stevedillard on May 17, 2014 20:01:41 GMT -5
The Big Sleep with his first of many home runs over the monster. Exit Xandman
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Post by FenwayFanatic on May 17, 2014 20:46:14 GMT -5
This is such a fun game to watch. Yippee!!!! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I'm at the game too...
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Post by godot on May 17, 2014 21:24:01 GMT -5
This is now sad and in some ways tragic. I don't know how they will end up, but John Henry basically broke up a championship team with his bookkeepers and they also stood pat. It also makes you question their judgment on young players. Although I suspect the baseball people accommodated Henry's flights of fantasy. Then he low balls Lester, nice signal. Don't get all that excited about their prospects.
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Post by jmei on May 17, 2014 21:29:37 GMT -5
This is now sad and in some ways tragic. I don't know how they will end up, but John Henry basically broke up a championship team with his bookkeepers and they also stood pat. It also makes you question their judgment on young players. Although I suspect the baseball people accommodated Henry's flights of fantasy. Then he low balls Lester, nice signal. Don't get all that excited about their prospects. ...and who assembled that championship team? Your hating on Henry and his "bookkeepers" is getting to be like that thing where every good move used to be all Theo while every bad move was Lucchino meddling. This is the same excellent front office which won a World Series while building up a top-5 farm system. Not all of their decisions have worked out (so far; remember that it's not even the end of May yet), but the process is there and as good as any other team in the majors.
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Post by grandsalami on May 17, 2014 21:53:03 GMT -5
This is now sad and in some ways tragic. I don't know how they will end up, but John Henry basically broke up a championship team with his bookkeepers and they also stood pat. It also makes you question their judgment on young players. Although I suspect the baseball people accommodated Henry's flights of fantasy. Then he low balls Lester, nice signal. Don't get all that excited about their prospects. Really dude. We know you hate JH But don't let it cloud your judgement Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 17, 2014 22:09:39 GMT -5
This is now sad and in some ways tragic. I don't know how they will end up, but John Henry basically broke up a championship team with his bookkeepers and they also stood pat. It also makes you question their judgment on young players. Although I suspect the baseball people accommodated Henry's flights of fantasy. Then he low balls Lester, nice signal. Don't get all that excited about their prospects. If you think the 2013 Red Sox were a dynasty in the making - just keep the team together - you're delusional. They were a veteran team last year that last year had just about everything that could go right go right. If you thought that was going to happen again, you're kidding yourself. Last year was a once in a lifetime situation - where nothing went wrong the entire season and every question mark there had been was answered in the affirmative. That rarely happens. With a veteran team, at some point they had to rebuild with youth and it doesn't always go smoothly. If they're mediocre in 2014 but it helps them be better in 2015 and 2016 and going forward then it's absolutely the right move to make. If you'd prefer a team with no farm system and aging stars then follow the team in the Bronx, because this is as good as it's going to get for them. They have practically no farm system, and have no choice but to invest heavily on players about to hit the downside of their careers. As far as the "bookkeepers" you mention, what are you talking about? Are you talking about statistical analysts? What are you talking about? Did you like the Sox better in the pre-statistical analyst days when they traded Jeff Bagwell, having no idea what kind of player he could be? The Sox are crappy this year thus far but I'll take John Henry's track record over just about every else. If you're in your 70s as you've stated you should be thrilled at the overall track record Henry's Red Sox have had. 3 Championships in 12 seasons versus the 0 for 69 drought of the Yawkey administration. You don't think the recent decade has been better than the other decades you've been following the team? This is my 35th year as a Red Sox fan and the past decade has been the best, hands down. No other team can boast 3 Championships in 12 seasons. They've gotta be doing something correct. And as far as judgment on young players why should it be questioned? Sometimes they struggle before establishing themselves. Or have you forgotten the beginnings of Dustin Pedroia and Trot Nixon years before him? They don't all burst onto the scene the way Nomar and Freddy Lynn and Jim Rice did. The only part of your rant that makes any sense at all to me is the Jon Lester offer, but even that is something that is too soon to condemn them over. They still have a legit shot at signing Lester. Lester isn't a smooth talking BS type of guy - he acted like things still had a decent shot at working out, so I won't judge that as a screw-up until they actually screw it up.
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Post by godot on May 17, 2014 22:30:31 GMT -5
Enjoyed your rant. Yeah, I know all the yada, yada you said. Heard it all before, yawn, but just take a different slant. BTW, way back I was saying they weren't making the "transition". Now I read it consistently. You are only as good as today's game, and I don't dwell on the past. It is over, and so are we if that is where we remain. Egad, isn't the Pedroia analogy getting a tad stale?
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Post by grandsalami on May 17, 2014 22:48:05 GMT -5
Enjoyed your rant. Yeah, I know all the yada, yada you said. Heard it all before, yawn, but just take a different slant. BTW, way back I was saying they weren't making the "transition". Now I read it consistently. You are only as good as today's game, and I don't dwell on the past. It is over, and so are we if that is where we remain. Egad, isn't the Pedroia analogy getting a tad stale? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on May 18, 2014 3:42:04 GMT -5
I don't know why so many are giving up already. We are still in this and the kids probably get better and if they don't we have the resources to replace them. We are only a few games out.
Regarding big signings I think the timing was just not right but Guidas was absolutely on target in his projections on Tanaka and others before him such as Darvish. If you want to freaking win sometimes it helps a whole lot to sign that top level talent. I don't see why that is so surprising. Big signs do not always fail.
And I would contend that in today'environment it is sometimes warranted to take a high upside risk like the Abreu opportunity. I know people look at Japanese baseball and Cuban baseball to be like A level minor leagues but the top players in these leagues, the top players in other top tier countries like Japan and Cuba, are probably roughly equivalent with top USA based players. Abreu had some of the best numbers in Cuba for years and now he is putting up some of the best numbers in the US. He was worth the risk and we should have seen that. He was even in our development facility. I have a ton of respect for Napoli but I would prefer to pencil Abreu into the 1st base a lot for the next 6 years at $11 mil per year in his prime.
And we could have afforded to sign Abreu and still stayed under the luxury tax limit. To me, Abreu was the bigger option for us, not Tanaka. Tanaka did end up out of our reach.
The sox do have cash. I think the time will come again but it obviously wasn't last winter. They were not going over the luxury tax limit period.
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Post by godot on May 18, 2014 9:47:07 GMT -5
In spite my skepticism , I can see a turn around, but if X-Man shows the power and hitting skills he undoubtedly has and Jr.finds his confidence and a bat that can make contact with the ball. A resurgence by Sizemore and Clay is also needed. They still will be plague with Shane's injury mishaps, a hole at third, no real outfield depth, and what pitcher(s) will solidify after Lester and Lackey. Have no idea about the arms at AAA, but often new blood is a great infusion.
Drew would have made a difference, and it seems the Sox were ( and maybe are) split on that. But he will be free from the shackles of losing a draft pick, and there will be competitive bidding for his services. Besides, how long will it take him to play at his level?
Yeah, John Henry's free agent philosophy can be counterproductive as long as the market reigns. He is right about the madness of this market, along with his concern about giving long contracts to guys 30 and over, but there comes a time when you bite the bullet. Good luck with figuring out an fair wage through his hedge fund folk. It is a market, and this one is not like beating the stock market. Besides, he had many losing years, and made his money in bunches. Just lucky? And developing players internally is such a long task.
Henry is undoubtedly a great guy and honest, but he reminds a bit of the " The Boss" who thought he could build a team himself. It was simple he thought. George's approach was the opposite, mainly buy the best with the most, but The Yankees did not get better until baseball people made him see the errors of his way and began building a team with a concept of a team they believe would be a winning combination. Suspect that wished he intervened in the Crawford signing and felt that he was too hands off, but now may be over reacting. Time to step back and listen to his baseball people?
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Post by gregblossersbelly on May 18, 2014 10:41:01 GMT -5
Was that one of our posters who called Buckley and Butch this morning on WEEI? Started out talking about the draft. Buck asked him to switch to prospects and he was talking about Swihart when Buckley cut him. I turned the show off at that point. Just curious.
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Post by pedroelgrande on May 18, 2014 11:42:13 GMT -5
Who were all these players that Henry let go?
Ellsbury - Thats a baseball decisión. 155/7 on 30+ player who relies on speed and athletiscism does not make Baseball sense. The bet wasn't that he'd be good for his first few years, the bet is that he won't be good at the end of the contract.
Drew - they offered him a contract his agent had unrealistic expactations then the red sox made the Baseball decision to move on and perhaps net a pick. The fact that he hasn't sign shows that his agent over step the market, plenty of guys swallowed their pride and sign for less even with draft picks attached. We'll see how much he gets post draft but i don't think it'll be multi-year.
All the desicions that have been made have Baseball sense. This is not a middling owner telling people what they have to do. Baseball is a business like it or not so off course it has a level of business involved but no one thing exceeds the other.
And one last thing was last year Henry too? Signing a bunch of middling free agents to budget conscious contracts? Or was that the baseball people making baseball decisions?
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Post by threeifbaerga on May 18, 2014 12:08:26 GMT -5
Would anyone really be that upset by a mid-table finish?
There is a rush of young potentially impact talent collecting in Portland, Pawtucket, and Boston. There will be growing pains with this group but it's integral to finding the next Red Sox core. On top of that comes a bigger bonus pool and better available players in next years draft to replenish the system, which will likely begin to drain in the coming months.
And can anyone really complain about that? The year after they took us on one hell of a ride, culminating in a world series win? How entitled could someone be?
If watching them struggle at .500 in mid-May and a staggering 2.5 games out of first boils someones blood that much, maybe they just shouldn't watch.
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Post by jimed14 on May 18, 2014 12:18:18 GMT -5
Who were all these players that Henry let go? Ellsbury - Thats a baseball decisión. 155/7 on 30+ player who relies on speed and athletiscism does not make Baseball sense. The bet wasn't that he'd be good for his first few years, the bet is that he won't be good at the end of the contract. Drew - they offered him a contract his agent had unrealistic expactations then the red sox made the Baseball decision to move on and perhaps net a pick. The fact that he hasn't sign shows that his agent over step the market, plenty of guys swallowed their pride and sign for less even with draft picks attached. We'll see how much he gets post draft but i don't think it'll be multi-year. All the desicions that have been made have Baseball sense. This is not a middling owner telling people what they have to do. Baseball is a business like it or not so off course it has a level of business involved but no one thing exceeds the other. And one last thing was last year Henry too? Signing a bunch of middling free agents to budget conscious contracts? Or was that the baseball people making baseball decisions? You left out Crawford and Beckett. Two that got away...
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Post by jimed14 on May 18, 2014 12:19:46 GMT -5
Isn't it pretty damn clear to everyone else that Holt deserves Herrera's spot? I don't care all that much about how much better Herrera supposedly is at SS when he's not even replacement level.
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Post by godot on May 18, 2014 12:24:55 GMT -5
Who were all these players that Henry let go? Ellsbury - Thats a baseball decisión. 155/7 on 30+ player who relies on speed and athletiscism does not make Baseball sense. The bet wasn't that he'd be good for his first few years, the bet is that he won't be good at the end of the contract. Drew - they offered him a contract his agent had unrealistic expactations then the red sox made the Baseball decision to move on and perhaps net a pick. The fact that he hasn't sign shows that his agent over step the market, plenty of guys swallowed their pride and sign for less even with draft picks attached. We'll see how much he gets post draft but i don't think it'll be multi-year. All the decisions that have been made have Baseball sense. This is not a middling owner telling people what they have to do. Baseball is a business like it or not so off course it has a level of business involved but no one thing exceeds the other. And one last thing was last year Henry too? Signing a bunch of middling free agents to budget conscious contracts? Or was that the baseball people making baseball decisions? You miss the point. Besides, never said that they perhaps would eat the end of Ellsbury's contact. The issues was who would replace (was Jr. ready) and depth in minor league system and the roster( little, if any). Also, how many players do not rely upon their athleticism? From what you say, it was a primarily a financial decision , - payment at end of contract. I have no idea though on what occurred before he entered free agency, other than the Sox did not want to pay what they knew he would get in the market You argument on Drew is well, off base and reinforces the idea that it was primarily a financial decisions. Hell, Farrell was advocating for him, and many of the players were wishing that he could come back. The feeling was he would stabilize the defense up the middle, and the Sox knew that X-Man's defense was problematic. Now some are saying his left handed bat would have been helpful in a line up having problems with right handers.. Hey look, As Jimei noted, the Sox's management has done well, but when they took over, it seems it was a team effort with a precise philosophy and approach. And Theo did screw up ( letting Beltre go and shifting Youklis to third after a 3 year absence, signing Cameron and moving Ellsbury. And we are still dealing with the Beltre goof.) Management is key to a teams success, but seems like to me anywhoo that Henry is now taking a more hands on approach, which is his prerogative. But when I last check he wasn't the Pope, and if I criticize does that mean I am ex-communicated. Nobody has shown me I am wrong on his current role, other than I should shut up, stop hating Henry, and be grateful, for the brightest of the brightest are ruling Sox nation. Can you say Vietnam, Long Term Capital, and the economic implosion that we are still addressing. Do not worship false gods or computer programs. Good night Irene, and my last post on this ( I know, thank god).
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Post by jimed14 on May 18, 2014 12:30:12 GMT -5
Yep, there's no guarantee that Xander can be an impact player, so let's overspend on vets to make it impossible for him to ever have a place to play. And don't bother thinking about what happens later on in the contracts. Sign Beckett, don't let him go. And sign Crawford too. At least they're showing they care about winning if they waste money and never let any prospects play.
We just friggin won the World Series last year. You sound like a spoiled brat. Sorry. As someone in their 70s, how can you ever be mad about anything regarding the Red Sox? I'm in my 40s and they can lose for 20 years and I'm still happy. They haven't let Carlton Fisk go lately.
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Post by Guidas on May 18, 2014 12:38:51 GMT -5
Hey look - Anibal Sanchez is getting the start tonight instead of the AAA fodder. Isn't that great?
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Post by Guidas on May 18, 2014 12:40:26 GMT -5
Isn't it pretty damn clear to everyone else that Holt deserves Herrera's spot? I don't care all that much about how much better Herrera supposedly is at SS when he's not even replacement level. Agree. And if they think Xander needs that much rest at SS then dump Herrera, add Marrero to the 40 man and give him a go at SS while Xander covers 3rd for Middlebrooks while he's down.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2014 13:32:46 GMT -5
How quickly frugal and methodical seem to have gone out of style.
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Post by Guidas on May 18, 2014 13:33:35 GMT -5
I don't know why so many are giving up already. We are still in this and the kids probably get better and if they don't we have the resources to replace them. We are only a few games out. This is the operative statement here. The division is so "competitive" that no one has really pulled ahead yet, and the Sox have the resources to move forward if they can hang in. Just on the surface and immediately they could: - Jettison Carp and bring up Nava, platooning him vs. RHP. - They could go buy Drew and Daniel Carbonell, moving Xander to 3rd and sending JBJ down for more offensive seasoning. At the trade deadline they could attempt to move several high value prospects for: Cliff Lee (maybe - just worried about his age but the short term gamble may be worth it depending on the prospect price) Jeff Samardzija (on the fence - prob only really an #3 starter) Giancarolo Stanton (yes please) Yasiel Puig (long shot but Dodgers have an OF logjam and may be sick of what they perceive as distractions, which seem minimal compared to, say, Manny at his peak of petulance). or 1 high value prospect for Andre Eithier (please don't ever). Or moves we've not even contemplated. Sure, this is fugly right now, and yes, of they have just played .500 at home they'd be in first place. But as bad as they've been they are close enough to make a run for the top and they have the resources to make that happen.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on May 18, 2014 13:38:15 GMT -5
Would anyone really be that upset by a mid-table finish? There is a rush of young potentially impact talent collecting in Portland, Pawtucket, and Boston. There will be growing pains with this group but it's integral to finding the next Red Sox core. On top of that comes a bigger bonus pool and better available players in next years draft to replenish the system, which will likely begin to drain in the coming months. And can anyone really complain about that? The year after they took us on one hell of a ride, culminating in a world series win? How entitled could someone be? If watching them struggle at .500 in mid-May and a staggering 2.5 games out of first boils someones blood that much, maybe they just shouldn't watch. I would rather see a mid-table finish then gut the farm for a quick fix. I agree with you.
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