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Boston Celtics 2014-15 season
wcp3
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Posts: 3,860
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Post by wcp3 on Mar 5, 2015 15:08:24 GMT -5
It wasn't gonna work out, and he didn't fit with the style of play the Celtics have going on.
Don't get me wrong, this team isn't anything special right now. But what makes them competitive is having 5 guys on the court who can shoot and pass, and have high IQs. McGee is the opposite of that, and would probably make them worse as Brad tried to fit a square peg in a round hole.
Those low-risk, high-reward situations usually make more sense when the potential reward is actually a good player.
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Post by jmei on Mar 5, 2015 16:14:43 GMT -5
It wasn't gonna work out, and he didn't fit with the style of play the Celtics have going on. Don't get me wrong, this team isn't anything special right now. But what makes them competitive is having 5 guys on the court who can shoot and pass, and have high IQs. McGee is the opposite of that, and would probably make them worse as Brad tried to fit a square peg in a round hole. Those low-risk, high-reward situations usually make more sense when the potential reward is actually a good player. Counterpoint: Hassan Whiteside. |
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Post by freddysthefuture2003 on Mar 5, 2015 16:41:56 GMT -5
It wasn't gonna work out, and he didn't fit with the style of play the Celtics have going on. Don't get me wrong, this team isn't anything special right now. But what makes them competitive is having 5 guys on the court who can shoot and pass, and have high IQs. McGee is the opposite of that, and would probably make them worse as Brad tried to fit a square peg in a round hole. Those low-risk, high-reward situations usually make more sense when the potential reward is actually a good player. Counterpoint: Hassan Whiteside. Exactly, if Miami put him on the block in the offseason (obv they are keeping him) after this showing, they could get a killing for him. The league is desperate for height, and always will be. |
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,860
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Post by wcp3 on Mar 5, 2015 16:59:21 GMT -5
Counterpoint: McGee has played in 330 more NBA games, so their situations aren't even remotely comparable.
Even better counterpoint: that's like saying "but look at Greg Maddux!!" when trying to argue that the minor leaguer with so-so velocity can still be an ace (despite everyone else projection him to be a 3).
Who knows, maybe the light bulb will turn on for McGee. Stranger things have happened in sports.
But there's enough of a sample size at this point to conclude he's just not a very good basketball player.
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Post by jmei on Mar 5, 2015 17:28:09 GMT -5
Counterpoint: McGee has played in 330 more NBA games, so their situations aren't even remotely comparable. Even better counterpoint: that's like saying "but look at Greg Maddux!!" when trying to argue that the minor leaguer with so-so velocity can still be an ace (despite everyone else projection him to be a 3). Who knows, maybe the light bulb will turn on for McGee. Stranger things have happened in sports. But there's enough of a sample size at this point to conclude he's just not a very good basketball player. Whiteside just did his sucking in the D-league/foreign leagues. He's less than 18 months younger than McGee, who just turned 27. I agree that McGee is probably not any good, but on a rest-of-the-season deal with a team option, there's basically no downside and at least some upside. Of course, McGee wanted that to be a player option, and that was enough for Danny to walk away, so clearly he doesn't think McGee is some stud in waiting or anything. But I agreed with the original idea-- if you get a no-risk look at a guy with upside, why not? |
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wcp3
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Posts: 3,860
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Post by wcp3 on Mar 5, 2015 17:36:30 GMT -5
There is a little bit of risk, though, in that the team would have to change the way it plays with McGee in the game. It's not a big risk by any means, but I'd much rather see those minutes go to Crowder and Olynyk.
In any event, it's still crazy to me that we're debating about which players will help this team make a playoff push. Stevens is an absolute stud of a coach.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 15, 2015 11:25:37 GMT -5
What a fun team. Danny and Brad are a hell of a combination. Celtics fans are very lucky to have them, especially Danny as a GM. He's bought low on a bunch of guys and gotten great value from them. Especially Evan Turner and Tyler Zeller. Thomas will probably go on that list as well eventually.
I'm not so sure Turner will be here longterm although, I really like his game and think Stevens will continue to help him develop it. Regardless, I think he builds enough value to get something back in return at next years deadline should they be looking to do something like that.
The real prize is Zeller. This isn't a guy without pedigree either. Not trying to paint this guy as an All-Star or more than he is, but this guy is good and is getting better. He's a very under-rated scorer in my opinion. He has a decent little face up game and lefty and righty little hooks that continue to improve as his confidence grows. He will never be a rim protector in the traditional sense, but he's not a sieve defensively either and is a smart player. I like him a lot.
I have always said and believe it that the timing of when to sign a player is as important as the contract you give him because of cap room and this is a tricky situation. I obviously believe they overpaid Bradley. The argument was that with the cap set to explode it will be a bargain. Well before that happens he will have played 3 of the 4 years so it's not really a bargain. Zeller could be a different story. He has one more year after this one before he is a free agent. I'd like to see them try to extend him now for 5 years. Now it's quite possible he wants nothing to do with it, but if he is open to it I wonder what it would take. I think I'd be ok if they went as high as 5/40, but really would love to get it done at 30-35. He loves it here and loves playing for Stevens and Centers are hard to find. I would bet on him continuing to improve.
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,860
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Post by wcp3 on Mar 15, 2015 17:25:54 GMT -5
Bradley's barely even overpaid - he's a legit starter on a playoff team.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 16, 2015 9:57:54 GMT -5
Bradley's barely even overpaid - he's a legit starter on a playoff team. I'm not going to argue with you on the overpaid vs not overpaid or by how much, it is what it is. But while a "legit starter on a playoff team" is an ambiguous designation, I take it as an implication that you over-rate him. I'd have to go through all the two guards out there but this is a guy not having a good season who was given an overpayment on his contract with the expectation he was in an upward trajectory offensively. The expectation was that even if he plateaued he was a top defender. Overall this year the offense has probably taken a step back and the defense most certainly has. The funny thing is I'm not even a Bradley hater. His game is fine, just like so many others before him expectations change when you get paid. |
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Post by freddysthefuture2003 on Mar 16, 2015 10:05:39 GMT -5
Bradley's barely even overpaid - he's a legit starter on a playoff team. I'm not going to argue with you on the overpaid vs not overpaid or by how much, it is what it is. But while a "legit starter on a playoff team" is an ambiguous designation, I take it as an implication that you over-rate him. I'd have to go through all the two guards out there but this is a guy not having a good season who was given an overpayment on his contract with the expectation he was in an upward trajectory offensively. The expectation was that even if he plateaued he was a top defender. Overall this year the offense has probably taken a step back and the defense most certainly has. The funny thing is I'm not even a Bradley hater. His game is fine, just like so many others before him expectations change when you get paid. His contract might not seem great, but wait till you see what Jeff Green gets when he opts out, and Bradley's contract is going to look just fine after the impending lockout. People are going to get PAID |
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 16, 2015 12:42:12 GMT -5
Like I said before his contract was four years in length so the money in the next bargaining agreement barely matters since his contract will only have one year on it at the new rates.
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Post by texs31 on Mar 16, 2015 15:26:12 GMT -5
Could it not be a bargain compared to the contracts signed BEFORE the next one as teams try to get Bradley-types locked up before the market goes haywire??
PS Not sure that's the case but it's possible, I would think.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 16, 2015 15:56:26 GMT -5
Sure it could be, we will see, but he was a free agent last year and restricted so in my mind to overpay at all was unnecessary but whatever it's not important at this juncture.
My point was locking up Zeller.
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Mar 16, 2015 20:52:45 GMT -5
Speaking of the devil, Zeller was looking pretty nice tonight.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 18, 2015 7:34:24 GMT -5
He's a good player... I'd lock him up if u could get him for the right price. The guy can score down low, it's becoming more and more obvious. When u can use both hands with soft touch, you're going to be hard to defend and he should age pretty well not that this matters now.
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Post by texs31 on Mar 24, 2015 8:32:24 GMT -5
Can someone who is actually watching the games talk me down (admittedly I'm "scouting the box scores" here bc I haven't been able to see many games.
But it just seems that while they are winning, they aren't really doing so with the desired development from the young players that they need. Sullinger is out. Smart doesn't seem to be running the team (granted, I'm basing this solely on assists where Turner leads every game). Olynyk is struggling to get back offensively (granted, he had a good game last night) and Young is getting little/no playing time.
Every night they seem to be lead by a different guy, all of whom project to be role players on this team (or traded/not re-signed). Am i missing something by only seeing the box scores?
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 24, 2015 8:51:10 GMT -5
I probably can't talk you off the ledge but there's plenty of good stuff happening. One big thing, in my opinion, is Stevens getting in a groove and learning the NBA game and making a name for himself which could help attract players to the Celtics. For all the talk about the Celtics not being a free agent destination (all true), what gets glossed over or omitted is they've never had cap room or a situation to attack them.
Smart may not be racking up the assists
but he's been a good leader and defensive player while going on some offensive hot streaks. He's a rookie and developing - the future is bright.
I find it interesting that people are more focused on KO's development and write Turner off as just another guy. Turner is still young and was the number 2 pick for a reason. The guy has oodles of talent that Stevens is starting to get out of him. Be excited about his prospects. As for Kelly, I don't like his game so I don't see him as a key piece of the future.
I wish Young was playing more, but he wasn't going to play a ton this season because of injuries and needed development. Any experience he gets, especially in these high intensity games is good and will help him next year.
I've said enough about Zeller, but Crowder is the other guys who's seen his stick soar. If not here then Danny should be able to turn him into something for the future.
The best thing to focus on is they've made things fun and interesting and Stevens has stepped up and it will be interesting to see if it helps get anyone here this year or next.
The key picks for the future are the 2016-18 Brooklyn picks.
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,860
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Post by wcp3 on Mar 24, 2015 12:33:33 GMT -5
rjp covered most of it, but I can't emphasize enough how good the Smart pick could turn out to be (and how wrong I was about him). Not only is he an elite defensive player already, but he's been able to correct his shooting flaw within months - you don't do that without a tremendous work ethic and a whole lot of talent.
He's shown a solid ability to run the point - better than I thought he would this year. The real question is whether he'll ever expand his ability to penetrate, but we won't have an answer on that one till next season.
In some ways, it's been a lost season for Sullinger/Olynyk. Next year is huge for them; we'll either find out that they are what they are (good rotational bigs), or one of em will emerge as a legitimate starter. At the very least, both guys are valuable trade chips as part of a bigger deal.
Like rjp said, Zeller and Crowder have turned themselves into something of value, whether that value is for the Celtics' future or for a trade. But it's incredible that they've turned into anything at all. And then there's Thomas...
The biggest takeaway for me is that Stevens has proven to be one heck of an NBA coach. He could turn out to be as big a part of their future as anyone currently on the roster. Plus, I love that the players are getting a taste of playoff competitiveness...compared to Philly, where they've developed a culture of losing.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 24, 2015 12:47:26 GMT -5
Great point, I'm a big believe in culture in any sport even if it can't be quantified. It's a big reason why computers can't pick teams and people are needed. Rondo was a loser. He was part of a winning team as a young player because of the veterans he had and him being too young to submarine things.
A winning culture is important to develop players in. It's a hard thing to describe because teams can have success without a good culture but not sustained success.
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Post by jmei on Mar 24, 2015 13:02:23 GMT -5
Can someone who is actually watching the games talk me down (admittedly I'm "scouting the box scores" here bc I haven't been able to see many games. But it just seems that while they are winning, they aren't really doing so with the desired development from the young players that they need. Sullinger is out. Smart doesn't seem to be running the team (granted, I'm basing this solely on assists where Turner leads every game). Olynyk is struggling to get back offensively (granted, he had a good game last night) and Young is getting little/no playing time. Every night they seem to be lead by a different guy, all of whom project to be role players on this team (or traded/not re-signed). Am i missing something by only seeing the box scores? I've only seen a handful of games, but I think you're overreacting. For one thing, as rjp mentioned, Turner's signed for next year and could well be a part of the next great Celtics team, either by re-signing (he complements Smart well) or by fetching something in trade. Smart just isn't at a point in his development where he's comfortable attacking the paint off the dribble consistently (he doesn't have a great handle and needs to continue to develop his timing and court vision), and the way to fix that is not to force him to keep running unsuccessful pick-and-rolls and discourage him in the process, but to ease him into things by letting someone else carry the offensive playmaking burden and slowly ramp up his role in the offense. Meanwhile, Smart has become an elite defender and a serviceable spot-up three point shooter, which makes him a valuable player even if he never develops into a lead ball-handler (which, let's be honest, is a toss-up at this point). Olynyk has looked much better than the box score statistics might suggest (for instance, he ranks really well by real plus-minus-- ahead of Hassan Whiteside, Joakim Noah, and Al Horford overall, and he leads all centers in offensive real plus-minus). Still tentative with his shot, but he spaces the floor and has developed a nice pump fake and drive game where he can both score off the dribble or pass to an open teammate and take advantage of a scrambling defense. It seems like a lot of his passes lead to buckets but he isn't credited with an assist since he's the guy who passes to the guy who gets the assist. He moves the ball well, which makes him a nice fit in Stevens' motion offense. His defense is still not great, though. Young is not getting a lot of playing time, but the dude is 19, and just giving him floor time that he's not ready for is not necessarily the best way to develop him. I agree that ideally he'd be playing more, but his defense is probably just not ready. He's going to be a work in progress for a few years either way, and I would urge patience. Crowder and Zeller have looked great. I'm not sure if either will be more than a really good role player, but really good role players are pretty damn valuable, and you can retain both of them for below-market prices through an extension or restricted free agency (they don't have the upside of the kind of guys who typically get overpaid in RFA). Simmons has been talking this up for a while, but but I'd love to buy low on Kevin Love, who is being criminally underutilized in Cleveland and generally seems unhappy. That's obviously still really unlikely, but I think that if you add Kevin Love to this roster and maybe a rim protector as well (Asik? Jordan? Hibbert? R. Lopez?), you have one of the best two or three teams in the East and a legit title contender. |
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Mar 25, 2015 9:59:33 GMT -5
As someone who follows the team peripherally right now, I'm surprised by how close they seem to getting back on track. I remember, especially after all those trades, looking at their roster and thinking it was a train wreck. I'm impressed. How much of it is that the East is just terrible right now?
I love the model of building a team in today's NBA of centering a team around a great coach and one or two stars. I think there's only one guy right now you could throw out there with just any coach and have a legitimate top team in the league almost regardless of who surrounds him.
And my god, that Brooklyn trade might wind up going down in history as one of the great swindles, no?
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Post by texs31 on Mar 25, 2015 10:30:47 GMT -5
It'll be interesting to see what Brooklyn is able to do to get out of their current mess. If it continues to get worse, wow, what a deal.
While I shouldn't be on the ledge, I will say Danny's job will be very challenging this off season. It's definitely going to boil down to his ability to convince a team to trade for his young pieces and/or convincing a free agent to bite on a deal. Not easy but it will be interesting to watch. Oh the rumor mill will be abuzz.
Somewhat related, Mike Gorman predicted that Rondo/Love will join Kobe in LA next year. I could see it but I'm not sure it will work that well.
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Post by Don Caballero on Mar 25, 2015 17:00:42 GMT -5
I think there's only one guy right now you could throw out there with just any coach and have a legitimate top team in the league almost regardless of who surrounds him. James Harden? |
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 26, 2015 16:45:19 GMT -5
It'll be interesting to see what Brooklyn is able to do to get out of their current mess. If it continues to get worse, wow, what a deal. While I shouldn't be on the ledge, I will say Danny's job will be very challenging this off season. It's definitely going to boil down to his ability to convince a team to trade for his young pieces and/or convincing a free agent to bite on a deal. Not easy but it will be interesting to watch. Oh the rumor mill will be abuzz. Somewhat related, Mike Gorman predicted that Rondo/Love will join Kobe in LA next year. I could see it but I'm not sure it will work that well. Danny's biggest challenge this offseason is to NOT spend on a bad contract. It's not to get someone here it's to not screw up the flexibility they've obtained. There should be no real desperation to make a huge splash. Sure it'd be nice but it's not necessary this offseason. |
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Post by texs31 on Mar 26, 2015 17:19:17 GMT -5
Yes. My statement unintentionally excluded that key point.
Overpaying (money or assets) for the wrong guys would put them in worse limbo than having a young team that teeters between the lottery and a 7/8 seed.
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