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Boston Celtics 2014-15 season
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Post by texs31 on Jan 17, 2015 16:31:18 GMT -5
Again, looking at my list, he would not. I know you'll say that he should play over Turner. Should? Sure. But he wouldnt. If ET is on this team, he's getting minutes. I forgot to add in Crowder too.
That's too many guys for those 3 spots.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 18, 2015 0:38:35 GMT -5
Nope don't think Bullock should play over Turner. Turner has been starting at PG. Looking at your list I don't think Pressey should get any playing time unless Turner/Smart are injured or in foul trouble.
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mike
New Member
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Post by mike on Jan 18, 2015 10:29:21 GMT -5
I think this season couldn't be going better, its just unfortunate that there's 3 teams that are dreadful. Getting the 4th-5th pick could land us Willy Caulie-Stein or Towns if he slips.
I see this offseason as an opportunity to get young impactful players. We have approximately 30 million in cap space, I would do whatever it takes to land Butler and Leonard and try to move Bradley for a pick/young rebounding/defensive presence (R. Gorbert?) Having Smart, Butler and Leonard would make for some elite wing defense and could be the nucleus of an young, high energy team for years to come.
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Post by jmei on Jan 18, 2015 10:55:50 GMT -5
Nope don't think Bullock should play over Turner. Turner has been starting at PG. Looking at your list I don't think Pressey should get any playing time unless Turner/Smart are injured or in foul trouble. I agree that Pressey shouldn't really be a priority for minutes, but even without him, you have Smart, Turner, Bradley, Young, and Crowder all needing PG/SG/SF minutes (and, until he's traded or bought out, Thornton). There just isn't playing time available for another guard or swingman type.
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Post by jmei on Jan 18, 2015 11:06:52 GMT -5
There is no chance Leonard or Butler switch teams this offseason. They are RFAs and their teams will match a max offer in a heartbeat.
The best youngish free agents who might switch teams this offseason are Goran Dragic, Greg Monroe, DeAndre Jordan, and Roy Hibbert (I omitted Marc Gasol since he's unlikely to sign in a rebuilding situation in Boston). There are also slightly older and lower-ceiling but useful types in Omer Asik, Arron Afflalo, and Paul Millsap. Draymond Green and Reggie Jackson are RFAs who could be available if you overpaid for them.
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Post by texs31 on Jan 18, 2015 12:26:19 GMT -5
My point (though not clearly stated, I admit) is that a 3rd PG is likely to get more minutes than a 6th G/F.
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,860
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Post by wcp3 on Jan 18, 2015 13:23:26 GMT -5
Dragic and Monroe are intriguing for the right price - they'd both be worth slightly overpays, IMO.
But DeAndre and Hibbert are two guys you stay away from at any cost. Their next contracts will likely turn out to be disasters.
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 18, 2015 14:03:46 GMT -5
I can't see Dragic leaving Phoenix, even his brother is there. Monroe on the other hand is definitely leaving Detroit and that's the guy Danny should pursue and overpay.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 18, 2015 21:51:22 GMT -5
If we are going to overpay I want DeAndre Jordan. He is a perfect fit with Sullinger and Olynyk. His PER has gone up for 5 straight years and he is averaging 9.8 points, 13.4 rebounds, 2.3 blocks and 1 steal a game. I bet it's going to take a max level deal or close to it.
Would you give Jordan a max deal?
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Post by xxdamgoodxx on Jan 19, 2015 21:21:19 GMT -5
Jordan doesn't make sense on this team right now. He's the defensive-minded, rebounding, rim-protecting center that fits on a team that has strong wing scoring. Yes, he's getting better, but he will never be a franchise/game-changing player. At this point in the rebuild, I want the Cs to identify and develop their future core and throw their big-market weight around. One of the advantages that the Celtics have with the Rondo trade exception is that they can eat an enormous contract for a team that's desperate and get a major pick haul. Last off-season, the Cavs traded us Zeller and a first just for taking on Thornton's contract, which wasn't even that bad (as evidenced by the Mozgov trade the Cavs are desperate and overpaying i.e. not true market value). If there's another Gerald Wallace that someone needs to move, we are in perfect position for another 2-first-rounders-type deal.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 21, 2015 15:41:16 GMT -5
Is Jordan a franchise center? Not at all. Is he a game changing player? You better believe it. He owns the paint! Why do you think you need a strong wing scorer to pair with Jordan? Look at the Clippers, they don't have a strong wing scorer. What you need is to pair Jordan with players that can score.
I hope your joking about the Celtics taking on a Gerald Wallace type player for 2 first rounder's(chances are late first rounders). Unless they are high lottery picks that is crazy. Wallace had three years on his deal when we traded for him. Now we did it for three first round picks and the right to swap picks another year. We took picks years away hoping they would be lottery picks by the time he got them. The Wallace deal was a good deal to start a rebuild, not the type of deal you make when your already a couple years into a rebuild. I don't know about you but I don't want to wait till 2018 to compete again.
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Post by texs31 on Jan 21, 2015 16:10:00 GMT -5
I wouldn't pay Max for Jordan. Always liked him but I think that next contract will end up hurting whomever he signs it with (especially if it's Max).
IF there is a FA to make a move on, it's Butler. Of course, bc of his status it's likely that Boston would have to convince him that he wants to play for the C's so much that he's willing to tell Chicago that they can either do a sign-trade to Boston (where C's could offer quite a bit) or he'll accept the QO, wait a year and sign as an unrestricted guy (for less money than he'd get re-signing with Chicago and with the risk that comes with waiting a year).
It's SO remote but it's the only big splash I can see worth making.
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Post by xxdamgoodxx on Jan 23, 2015 12:23:48 GMT -5
Is Jordan a franchise center? Not at all. Is he a game changing player? You better believe it. He owns the paint! Why do you think you need a strong wing scorer to pair with Jordan? Look at the Clippers, they don't have a strong wing scorer. What you need is to pair Jordan with players that can score. I hope your joking about the Celtics taking on a Gerald Wallace type player for 2 first rounder's(chances are late first rounders). Unless they are high lottery picks that is crazy. Wallace had three years on his deal when we traded for him. Now we did it for three first round picks and the right to swap picks another year. We took picks years away hoping they would be lottery picks by the time he got them. The Wallace deal was a good deal to start a rebuild, not the type of deal you make when your already a couple years into a rebuild. I don't know about you but I don't want to wait till 2018 to compete again. Not trying to make the Clippers out to be a bad team, but they haven't made the Conference Championship game in the Paul/Griffin era. Their wing production is poor for a team with championship aspirations, which is the reason that they haven't been that close. On the rebuilding front, unless you get someone to pair with Jordan, there's no use in obtaining him (under the assumption that you could). Yes he's good, but if it's him and Marcus Smart as the core of a playoff-but-not-contending team, I think that it's far from ideal. You just stick yourself in draft purgatory and your only option of getting a "guy" is by trade. Which is certainly still possible, considering Danny's bounty of assets, but as we saw with Kevin Love, assets don't always equal star players, even if they are available. I don't really care how long it takes to rebuild, as long as it is done right (i.e. Multi-Year, legit championship runs). The reality is that it will take time and a lot of luck. Don't act like we got 3 1/2 firsts for taking Gerald Wallace's contract. The Nets got Pierce and Garnett. They thought that they could contend with the LeBron and the Heat with a veteran core and a young stud in Lopez, so they paid the price. It obviously went terribly wrong, but don't let the present alter the past. (add: The reason why the Celtics got picks in the far future was because a team can't trade all their picks. If you want three firsts from one team, it is going to take years to get them all. Part of the thinking in the trade was the the Nets could be really bad In the future, but it's not like they had the option to get the picks any sooner.) In the NBA, you never know when teams are going to get desperate. No one knows when superstars are going to decide that they are unhappy, especially if someone goes into their free-agent offseason after getting crushed in the first round of the playoffs. Who will need our help if Lebron opts-out this summer and in what capacity? Love? Gasol? Leonard? Aldridge? The most consistent way to "fit" into these trades (get something out of them) is to be as flexible as possible. The trade exceptions only further the flexibility of the organization.
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Post by texs31 on Jan 23, 2015 12:58:06 GMT -5
The thing I disagree with the most (which you almost "fix" later in your post) is the draft purgatory idea. This is where the C's should be okay bc I think those Brooklyn picks (at least the one in 2016) should be huge. They can actually compete for a playoff spot and still have a reasonable shot (assuming no miracle work by the Nets) at a high lottery pick in the '16 draft.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 23, 2015 20:16:38 GMT -5
Is Jordan a franchise center? Not at all. Is he a game changing player? You better believe it. He owns the paint! Why do you think you need a strong wing scorer to pair with Jordan? Look at the Clippers, they don't have a strong wing scorer. What you need is to pair Jordan with players that can score. I hope your joking about the Celtics taking on a Gerald Wallace type player for 2 first rounder's(chances are late first rounders). Unless they are high lottery picks that is crazy. Wallace had three years on his deal when we traded for him. Now we did it for three first round picks and the right to swap picks another year. We took picks years away hoping they would be lottery picks by the time he got them. The Wallace deal was a good deal to start a rebuild, not the type of deal you make when your already a couple years into a rebuild. I don't know about you but I don't want to wait till 2018 to compete again. Not trying to make the Clippers out to be a bad team, but they haven't made the Conference Championship game in the Paul/Griffin era. Their wing production is poor for a team with championship aspirations, which is the reason that they haven't been that close. On the rebuilding front, unless you get someone to pair with Jordan, there's no use in obtaining him (under the assumption that you could). Yes he's good, but if it's him and Marcus Smart as the core of a playoff-but-not-contending team, I think that it's far from ideal. You just stick yourself in draft purgatory and your only option of getting a "guy" is by trade. Which is certainly still possible, considering Danny's bounty of assets, but as we saw with Kevin Love, assets don't always equal star players, even if they are available. I don't really care how long it takes to rebuild, as long as it is done right (i.e. Multi-Year, legit championship runs). The reality is that it will take time and a lot of luck. Don't act like we got 3 1/2 firsts for taking Gerald Wallace's contract. The Nets got Pierce and Garnett. They thought that they could contend with the LeBron and the Heat with a veteran core and a young stud in Lopez, so they paid the price. It obviously went terribly wrong, but don't let the present alter the past. (add: The reason why the Celtics got picks in the far future was because a team can't trade all their picks. If you want three firsts from one team, it is going to take years to get them all. Part of the thinking in the trade was the the Nets could be really bad In the future, but it's not like they had the option to get the picks any sooner.) In the NBA, you never know when teams are going to get desperate. No one knows when superstars are going to decide that they are unhappy, especially if someone goes into their free-agent offseason after getting crushed in the first round of the playoffs. Who will need our help if Lebron opts-out this summer and in what capacity? Love? Gasol? Leonard? Aldridge? The most consistent way to "fit" into these trades (get something out of them) is to be as flexible as possible. The trade exceptions only further the flexibility of the organization. You can't say don't get Jordan if you can't get someone to pair with him. You don't have to build a title contender in one off season. What Danny did with getting Garnett and Allen in one off season is very hard to do. The way I look at it Center is the hardest position to fill right now. So if you can get a good young center(Jordan is only 26) you do it. As to the core I think its Smart, Sullinger and Olynyk right now. The reason I really love Jordan is that I see him as a perfect fit next to Sullinger and Oylnyk. I really like a front court that would be Zeller, Jordan, Sullinger and Olynyk. You are also going to be adding a high lottery pick to the core next year.
Didn't think I needed to tell you we gave up Pierce and Garnett as we are on a Celtics board I assumed everyone already knew that! Danny has shown time and time again that he likes getting picks in the future. No one knows what might happen. Sure we couldn't get the Nets next three picks, but even if we could I'm sure Danny would have rather taken picks in the future. If you remember we didn't get the Nets first round picks the year the trade was made and we could have. Danny likes future picks! The pick we got for the Clippers for Doc. We didn't get a 2014 pick we got a 2015 pick.
As to staying Flexible, its not like a max deal for Jordan takes away all of our cap space. We would still be able to help teams make trades if that's what Danny wanted to do. Also remember that the Cap is going up and Wallaces deal comes off our books next year. I might be wrong, but I think we could sign Jordan to a max level deal this year and still be able to get another max level player next year.
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,860
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Post by wcp3 on Jan 24, 2015 9:19:02 GMT -5
Jordan isn't worth close to a max deal. He's also the type of guy who you add to get your team over the time. You don't add him when you're early on in the rebuilding process.
Pass.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 24, 2015 9:37:22 GMT -5
I can't see Dragic leaving Phoenix, even his brother is there. Monroe on the other hand is definitely leaving Detroit and that's the guy Danny should pursue and overpay. I don't think Monroe leaves Detroit. I used to think it was a given but they waived Josh Smith to free up that conflict most likely to keep Monroe. They can pay him more and the team needs him so they will keep him IMO. They have played way better as a team. These last two wins have been z annoying, ha.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 24, 2015 9:46:42 GMT -5
Jordan also is a majorly over rated defender. He gets blocks but he's a terrible 1 v 1 defender. He gets help weak side blocks which is valuable but this just a shut down in the paint defender and in my kind of you are paying a center max money for defense and rebounding (and zero offense) he better be able to man up on opposing big men and he can't do that. He's a poor offensive player, poor one on one defender and a poor free throw shooter.
If this team were just his skill set away then yea I do it but they aren't.
I don't think they should add anyone in free agency.
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Post by texs31 on Jan 24, 2015 9:48:29 GMT -5
The Portland one stings most. Denver is bad enough that I was thinking that could be a W. But the Aldridge injury made that game winnable and they stole it. Bummer.
Maybe with the KO injury and offloading some more vets they'll be able to "steal" some losses that they shouldn't expect to lose.
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Post by jmei on Jan 24, 2015 10:39:58 GMT -5
I wouldn't call Jordan a terrible one-on-one defender, but its fair to say he isn't a great one. I also think he's a better offensive player than you think. He can't create his own shot, but he is a great pick and roll big man who can catch and finish at the rim in a way that, say, Sullinger and Olynyk can't. When he rolls to the rim, he forces a help defender to sink into the paint and can finish over them. Zeller has a poor man's version of this skill, and it's a useful one-- think Tyson Chandler or Andre Drummond. That's a useful skill to have.
That said, even with the rising cap, I hesitate to give him the max (which would be 4/$86m or something). He isn't the defender Chandler is, and I'm not sure he has any more upside.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 24, 2015 12:46:59 GMT -5
Terrible was an over exaggeration but below average and like you said not a guy who is want to max out unless he finished the puzzle. I can understand why a team like the Clippers would give him a max deal. They are over cap and have bird rights and he can fit into their plan.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 24, 2015 15:51:31 GMT -5
Jordan also is a majorly over rated defender. He gets blocks but he's a terrible 1 v 1 defender. He gets help weak side blocks which is valuable but this just a shut down in the paint defender and in my kind of you are paying a center max money for defense and rebounding (and zero offense) he better be able to man up on opposing big men and he can't do that. He's a poor offensive player, poor one on one defender and a poor free throw shooter. If this team were just his skill set away then yea I do it but they aren't. I don't think they should add anyone in free agency. Really not a single free agent? Why? What is your end game? Stay in the lottery till we find a superstar? The problem I have with that plan is that Brad Stevens coaches to win. I know this isn't a bad thing, problem is he keeps playing all of our veteran players at the expense of our young talent. Stevens is a lot like Rivers in that he won't play young players if he can play veterans that will perform better. By doing this we are going to keep having games like our last two games. We are never going to get top 3 picks, heck its going to be hard for us to get top 5 picks. As you all know the chances of getting a superstar are much higher in the top 3 and even top 5. So Danny needs to either gut this team of useful veteran players hence forcing Stevens to play young players or start to add good young players by free agency or trades.
Right now Danny seems to have us stuck in no mans land. We aren't good enough to make playoffs and we aren't bad enough to get high lottery picks. Why are Prince, Thornton and Bass getting 20, 15.6 and 19.4 minutes a night? So we can trade them for second round picks? We have enough second round picks. I would rather they just buyout all three players and play our young players. James Young has only played in 10 games and got 6.6 minutes a game. That is crazy as he has produced a respectable per of 15.9 in those limited minutes. Lets see what he can do! Would like to see Sullinger, Olynyk and Zeller getting 30 minutes a night, not the 28.7, 24.5 and 19.7 they have been getting. I also want to see Smart getting more then 22 minutes a night and to play sg for time to time to see if we can get him going offensively.
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Post by xxdamgoodxx on Jan 25, 2015 10:18:44 GMT -5
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,860
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Post by wcp3 on Jan 25, 2015 10:37:35 GMT -5
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 25, 2015 11:10:01 GMT -5
Is there any network that has a more insane mix of good professionals and awful ones than ESPN? Ford is (and always has been) a hack.
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