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Post by burythehammer on Jan 3, 2015 12:10:54 GMT -5
"Moncada could command a $20 million signing bonus, which would mean an expenditure of $40 million for the Red Sox, including the tax."From the Projo article linked above by jmei. I'll believe an 80 signing bonus or even 40 when I see it. By 80m I just mean total expenditures. Technically he'd only get 40m in that scenario but that's irrelevant from the team's perspective. I also don't see any way the Cubs can sign him unless they offer way more than everyone else. That's assuming he gets cleared before June. If I'm Moncada there's no chance I'm waiting even a month to sign a life changing contract when I can sign one right now.
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alnipper
Veteran
Living the dream
Posts: 639
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Post by alnipper on Jan 3, 2015 12:12:06 GMT -5
Before a team signs Moncada to a big contract they will see him face live pitching. Individual workouts will have him face live pitching. If his hit tool is as good as advertised then he'll get his 30-40 million.
Is a team who signs him, able to give him a major league contract correct? I wouldn't give him one, but just wondering.
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Post by chavopepe2 on Jan 3, 2015 12:16:30 GMT -5
Before a team signs Moncada to a big contract they will see him face live pitching. Individual workouts will have him face live pitching. If his hit tool is as good as advertised then he'll get his 30-40 million. Is a team who signs him, able to give him a major league contract correct? I wouldn't give him one, but just wondering. He cannot get a major league deal.
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Post by soxfan06 on Jan 3, 2015 12:19:24 GMT -5
The Cubs can't sign him unless he isn't cleared until after June.
So basically depending on when he is cleared, I think the favorites are: Before June - Boston After June - Chicago
So it's good news that either way we won't be competing with Theo.
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Post by chavopepe2 on Jan 3, 2015 12:31:50 GMT -5
Is the issue when he is cleared or when he's signed?
I thought it was signed, in which case it will be interesting to see what happens if he's cleared later in the spring.
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Post by soxfan06 on Jan 3, 2015 12:39:48 GMT -5
Is the issue when he is cleared or when he's signed? I thought it was signed, in which case it will be interesting to see what happens if he's cleared later in the spring. True, but it's hard to believe that if he is clearly before June, he will wait until after June to sign, especially when he is expected to get multiple very large/similar offers.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Jan 3, 2015 12:46:08 GMT -5
A team can convince him to wait and sign after June if they have the best offer.
The favorite to me are the Yankees. This guy is basically made for them. And they have shown a renewed sense of helping out the farm.
If they rate this guy as he has been billed then I don't see how they don't go all out for him.
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Post by burythehammer on Jan 3, 2015 12:48:19 GMT -5
My question is how enforceable are these "verbal agreements." What if he blows out his knee while training (or something worse, god forbid) in the ensuing time? There's no way the Cubs are still obligated to sign him. He's screwed. So if I'm Moncada and I can sign with the Yankees for 35m today, or verbally agree with the Cubs to sign for 40m two months from now, that'll take some guts to wait. We're not talking about an MLB player who's already made enough money in his career to live comfortably for a long time, we're talking about a kid from a poor country who very likely doesn't come from much. The risk is far greater.
Now, if it's 50m vs 35m, that's a different story. But I think it would require a "blow everyone away" type offer like that for the Cubs to land him. Again, assuming he's unblocked before, say, the middle of May.
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Post by sdiaz1 on Jan 3, 2015 13:19:21 GMT -5
A team can convince him to wait and sign after June if they have the best offer. The favorite to me are the Yankees. This guy is basically made for them. And they have shown a renewed sense of helping out the farm. If they rate this guy as he has been billed then I don't see how they don't go all out for him. The problem with this line of thought is that there are a lot of people in line waiting to get paid after the dust settles and they may not all be willing to just hang around another few months. Moncada's exit from Cuba is still really murky and though it likely does not include narco drug trafficking scum bags, it may have taken some bribes and promises made to shithead members of bureaucratic offices in Cuba who allowed him to so easily leave. Not to mention his agent is just some CPA from St. Petersburg so it is not like he has houndreds of thousands of dollars at his disposal to keep this kid housed, fed, trained, entertained, showcased etc while he waits for a pay day. I am sure that he and those who have loaned him money during this process would like to see a return sooner than later.
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Post by soxfan06 on Jan 3, 2015 13:20:50 GMT -5
I'm sure he could be talked into waiting. It all depends on when he is cleared. If he isn't cleared until May he could probably be convinced to wait.
But if he was cleared in February, doubt he could be convinced to wait 4 months to sign.
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Post by pedroelgrande on Jan 3, 2015 13:34:12 GMT -5
July two guys "sign" verbals all the time. I can assure you the Espinoza, Acosta, Devers were "signed" well before July 2. In Espinoza's case he didn't even go to the MLB showcase.
Moncada is a higher profile guy so it may be different but teams know how to deal with verbals and how to proceed. Not saying it's going to happen but it's an option and I think it shouldn't be discounted.
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Post by bluechip on Jan 3, 2015 16:33:01 GMT -5
Is the issue when he is cleared or when he's signed? I thought it was signed, in which case it will be interesting to see what happens if he's cleared later in the spring. True, but it's hard to believe that if he is clearly before June, he will wait until after June to sign, especially when he is expected to get multiple very large/similar offers. The Yankees and Red Sox can't sign him after June, and those teams seem perfect fits, both financially and in terms of need (don't need a third baseman this year but no long term solution there either). The Cubs and Rangers could both want him, but neither has as much money as the Yankees.
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Post by GyIantosca on Jan 3, 2015 17:10:01 GMT -5
The Yankees have the same issue as the Red Sox,he has to be declared before June. I did nt see the post before me.
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Post by bluechip on Jan 3, 2015 17:13:42 GMT -5
The Yankees have the same issue as the Red Sox,he has to be declared before June. I did nt see the post before me. It is a long time before this signing period ends.
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Post by dewey1972 on Jan 3, 2015 22:13:46 GMT -5
July two guys "sign" verbals all the time. I can assure you the Espinoza, Acosta, Devers were "signed" well before July 2. In Espinoza's case he didn't even go to the MLB showcase. Moncada is a higher profile guy so it may be different but teams know how to deal with verbals and how to proceed. Not saying it's going to happen but it's an option and I think it shouldn't be discounted. But when July 2 guys agree verbally, they don't have the option of signing right then. That said, I do think it's an option and if the Cubs decide to blow away the other offers I can see it happening, but this is a different situation than with the July 2 guys. As others have pointed out, it may depend on when he's cleared, and that's far from clear. But I think that he'd be unlikely to wait several months to sign if he's got a similar offer on the table at the time. One thing I wonder about is insurance. I don't know a lot about it, but I know I've read about guys taking out enormous insurance policies on themselves prior to signing a big contract. If he had a big insurance policy that would make waiting a few months a smaller risk. In terms of favorites, I'd say it's the Yankees. They have not flexed the financial muscle they way they could in a while, but Kiley McDaniel said in this piece that "a Yankees source told me that they could break even financially with a $500 million payrolll expenditure (including luxury tax)." They operate in a different realm from every other team. That said, it seems like they don't like completely overwhelming the market, so I can see them drawing a line at, say $35 milllion and the Red Sox being prepared to go to $40 million.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 3, 2015 22:22:30 GMT -5
The Cubs can't sign him unless he isn't cleared until after June. So basically depending on when he is cleared, I think the favorites are: Before June - Boston After June - Chicago So it's good news that either way we won't be competing with Theo. In the scenario where he can sign prior to July why would the Sox be favored to sign Moncada over the Yankees? You saw what the Yankees spent in the international market recently. They're doing that because they know that they need to rebuild their system as their drafts haven't exactly been overwhelming. My guess is that the Yanks are willing to spend more than the Sox would. I do agree that if he doesn't get cleared until after July that Theo and the Cubs would be the favorites to land him. I would think somewhere the Dodgers with their money and new front office would factor in as well.
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Post by dewey1972 on Jan 3, 2015 22:51:12 GMT -5
Thanks for the info and article, much obliged. I also realized belatedly I could have just clicked the International Signings tab on the homepage...oops.
It does bring up another question though. Please forgive me if I'm missing something glaringly obvious since I've already done so once on this thread, but assuming:
1) The cap exists so high-budget teams cannot just buy up and stash the best players, similar to the rationale for the Rule 5 draft 2) MLB teams are at least fairly close to each other in terms of International Signing bonus pool money 3) Moncada will require ~20mil bonus (as cited by the article, which is ~1000% of the available money) 4) Thus any team acquiring Moncada must pay penalties for 80-90% of the bonus 5) Only teams with high budgets to begin with can afford to absorb such penalty payments
Isn't the whole cap system itself kind of self-defeating? Only instead of all the money from the bidding going to Yoan Moncada, roughly half of it will go to Bud Selig/Joe Torre and Co. And if that's the case why isn't the MLBPA justifiably screaming about it?
In addition to the points others have made, I have one general point and one specific to Moncada. First, point 1 is not really true. The pool amounts exist to limit spending in general--since major league baseball is a monopoly, limiting spending is generally good for teams' bottom lines. Major league baseball has promoted this as a way to prevent high budget teams from dominating the market, but just like with the draft, many smaller market teams were among the highest spending teams in the international arena before the most recent CBA. Further, the penalties for going over the international pool are relatively light--taxes (though they've generally been in the couple of million dollar range) and limits on what the teams can do the next year. But because they're light, and because international talent that is signed using this money is a long way from the majors so teams are never missing out on sure-fire stars (it does not include guys posted from Japan, for example, or any of the recent Cuban guys who've gone straight to the majors), a number of teams have had no problem going past the limit: the Rangers, Cubs, Yankees, Red Sox, and I think a couple of others. Contrast that with the first year player draft rules, which take away a team's first round pick. Every team has treated going past the limit far enough to lose a pick like a third rail. The second point is how Moncada compares to the players usually signed with this money. These players are generally sixteen years old and very raw (as pretty much all sixteen year olds are). The likelihood of them never even making the major leagues, much less becoming stars, is very high. However, Moncada is nineteen and his game is much more refined. The odds of him not making the major leagues are minute. He's certainly no guarantee--we've seen plenty of top 10 prospects turn into replacement level players. But most top 10 prospects (and everything I've read is that he is a top 10, probably top 5 prospect right now) turn into at least solid major league players. Given that his defense seems to be at least passable at second or third (and maybe at short), his floor is very high. All of this is to say that the reason the international bonus pool doesn't seem to fit Moncada is that it wasn't developed for a player like him. One last thing about the pool. Kiley McDaniel, in this piece about Moncada, talks about the likelihood that MLB would like to institute an international draft. There's a lot else in there, so I'll quote the most relevant paragraph: "Every club I’ve talked to is strongly against an international draft, for literally dozens of reasons. The main issues, and ones that need a lot of time, money and personnel thrown at them, are getting as many countries as possible to opt-in to a draft, thus avoiding another version of the present Cuba exception, where players from a couple countries not involved in the draft get huge contracts in a free market. MLB needs resources for dealing with each country’s government (there are more than a few problematic countries that could undermine the whole effort) and, in many cases, helping to work around or solve typical third-world obstacles that it’s taken years for MLB to work through in the Dominican."
It'll be interesting to see how that plays out. I worry that an international draft won't be good for international players, though I don't know enough to be sure of that.
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Post by burythehammer on Jan 4, 2015 5:43:32 GMT -5
July two guys "sign" verbals all the time. I can assure you the Espinoza, Acosta, Devers were "signed" well before July 2. In Espinoza's case he didn't even go to the MLB showcase. Moncada is a higher profile guy so it may be different but teams know how to deal with verbals and how to proceed. Not saying it's going to happen but it's an option and I think it shouldn't be discounted. This is completely different. Those guys make verbal agreements because they CAN'T sign before July 2nd. If you went to one of those kids on July 2nd and said "Hey wait a couple months and we'll pay you X amount" when they have similar offers from other teams on the table do you think they'd wait? But since you bring it up, we saw with the Yankees last year how much these "verbal agreements" are really worth when something happens to the player/he regresses significantly.
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jimoh
Veteran
Posts: 4,202
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Post by jimoh on Jan 4, 2015 7:05:40 GMT -5
Cafardo in the Globe, giving the opposite of the truth: "Moncada, 19, has drawn considerable interest, but teams like the Red Sox who are well over their international pool allotment and can’t sign anyone until July 2"
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Post by wskeleton76 on Jan 4, 2015 8:23:51 GMT -5
Cafardo in the Globe, giving the opposite of the truth: "Moncada, 19, has drawn considerable interest, but teams like the Red Sox who are well over their international pool allotment and can’t sign anyone until July 2" He better stop writing about MLB.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 4, 2015 8:25:06 GMT -5
A team can convince him to wait and sign after June if they have the best offer. The favorite to me are the Yankees. This guy is basically made for them. And they have shown a renewed sense of helping out the farm. If they rate this guy as he has been billed then I don't see how they don't go all out for him. The problem with this line of thought is that there are a lot of people in line waiting to get paid after the dust settles and they may not all be willing to just hang around another few months. Moncada's exit from Cuba is still really murky and though it likely does not include narco drug trafficking scum bags, it may have taken some bribes and promises made to shithead members of bureaucratic offices in Cuba who allowed him to so easily leave. Not to mention his agent is just some CPA from St. Petersburg so it is not like he has houndreds of thousands of dollars at his disposal to keep this kid housed, fed, trained, entertained, showcased etc while he waits for a pay day. I am sure that he and those who have loaned him money during this process would like to see a return sooner than later. Ummmm where do you live that it takes hundreds of thousands of dollars "to keep this kid housed, fed, trained, entertained, showcased etc while he waits for a pay day." It doesn't take much if anything to do that... Food, shelter and entertainment are minimal and training is probably free as someone would train him and take money later if you actually needed to do that which they probably wouldn't and teams come to you to see him.
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Post by soxfan06 on Jan 4, 2015 11:27:24 GMT -5
The Cubs can't sign him unless he isn't cleared until after June. So basically depending on when he is cleared, I think the favorites are: Before June - Boston After June - Chicago So it's good news that either way we won't be competing with Theo. In the scenario where he can sign prior to July why would the Sox be favored to sign Moncada over the Yankees? You saw what the Yankees spent in the international market recently. They're doing that because they know that they need to rebuild their system as their drafts haven't exactly been overwhelming. My guess is that the Yanks are willing to spend more than the Sox would. I do agree that if he doesn't get cleared until after July that Theo and the Cubs would be the favorites to land him. I would think somewhere the Dodgers with their money and new front office would factor in as well. You've seen what the Red Sox have spent in the international market recently haven't you? $72.5M on Rusney Blowing past the international signing market spending limit just like the Yankees. I forgot that everyone thinks the Red Sox are poor. If we like a player we can match anyone money wise.
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Post by chavopepe2 on Jan 4, 2015 11:32:23 GMT -5
In the scenario where he can sign prior to July why would the Sox be favored to sign Moncada over the Yankees? You saw what the Yankees spent in the international market recently. They're doing that because they know that they need to rebuild their system as their drafts haven't exactly been overwhelming. My guess is that the Yanks are willing to spend more than the Sox would. I do agree that if he doesn't get cleared until after July that Theo and the Cubs would be the favorites to land him. I would think somewhere the Dodgers with their money and new front office would factor in as well. You've seen what the Red Sox have spent in the international market recently haven't you? $72.5M on Rusney Blowing past the international signing market spending limit just like the Yankees. I forgot that everyone thinks the Red Sox are poor. If we like a player we can match anyone money wise. Sure, but I don't see why the Sox would be favored to land him over the Yankees.
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Post by sdiaz1 on Jan 4, 2015 12:15:17 GMT -5
The problem with this line of thought is that there are a lot of people in line waiting to get paid after the dust settles and they may not all be willing to just hang around another few months. Moncada's exit from Cuba is still really murky and though it likely does not include narco drug trafficking scum bags, it may have taken some bribes and promises made to shithead members of bureaucratic offices in Cuba who allowed him to so easily leave. Not to mention his agent is just some CPA from St. Petersburg so it is not like he has houndreds of thousands of dollars at his disposal to keep this kid housed, fed, trained, entertained, showcased etc while he waits for a pay day. I am sure that he and those who have loaned him money during this process would like to see a return sooner than later. Ummmm where do you live that it takes hundreds of thousands of dollars "to keep this kid housed, fed, trained, entertained, showcased etc while he waits for a pay day." It doesn't take much if anything to do that... Food, shelter and entertainment are minimal and training is probably free as someone would train him and take money later if you actually needed to do that which they probably wouldn't and teams come to you to see him. While I must admit that neither one of us have any real idea of how much this process must cost the agency, I am positive that it is a small fortune. They have paid for: - His departure from Cuba - Him to be housed in Guatemala, with his own security detail. -A days rental of a semi-professional stadium in Guatemala. - Air Travel from Guatemala to the US - Housing in Florida - A lawyer to represent Moncada as he seeks to attain his Visa and establish residency They will need to pay: - Future showcases in American Stadiums - Additional travel not just for Moncada but for whomever else they may need to bring (The agent, translator) So yes, the agent or agency can easily expect to have to shell out an enormous sum of money during this process. Of course I have no idea what the cost of putting on a showcase is or what the cost of hiring a private security detail in Guatemala is but cheap and affordable are not exactly the first words that pop in my head.
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Post by soxfan06 on Jan 4, 2015 12:17:19 GMT -5
You've seen what the Red Sox have spent in the international market recently haven't you? $72.5M on Rusney Blowing past the international signing market spending limit just like the Yankees. I forgot that everyone thinks the Red Sox are poor. If we like a player we can match anyone money wise. Sure, but I don't see why the Sox would be favored to land him over the Yankees. Because the Yankees have shown no interest in spending money this year. George Steinbrenner isn't alive anymore.
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