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Discussion of Internal Pitching Options
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Post by jmei on May 7, 2015 9:21:15 GMT -5
Yeah, I tend to think that Rodriguez still needs to work at commanding his fastball, which has been a weakness of his. The decline is walk rate is nice, but control isn't command, and I'm not sure that he's improved his command to the point where he'd be an above-average MLB starter were he brought up immediately.
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Post by jimed14 on May 7, 2015 9:22:50 GMT -5
Yeah, I tend to think that Rodriguez still needs to work at commanding his fastball, which has been a weakness of his. The decline is walk rate is nice, but control isn't command, and I'm not sure that he's improved his command to the point where he'd be an above-average MLB starter were he brought up immediately. "Better than Masterson" is what we're going for though. I think he can do that.
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Post by jmei on May 7, 2015 9:43:30 GMT -5
Yeah, I tend to think that Rodriguez still needs to work at commanding his fastball, which has been a weakness of his. The decline is walk rate is nice, but control isn't command, and I'm not sure that he's improved his command to the point where he'd be an above-average MLB starter were he brought up immediately. "Better than Masterson" is what we're going for though. I think he can do that. Masterson has been pretty bad this year, but it's only been six starts. I'd be willing to give him at least a couple more starts before pulling him for purely performance reasons.
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Post by Oregon Norm on May 7, 2015 17:00:27 GMT -5
Masterson simply doesn't have the stuff to go through the lineup more than once cleanly. It's been a struggle beyond that. That makes him prime for a bullpen spot. Rodriguez, the times I've watched him, has superior stuff. While that doesn't always carry the day, I think his clean mechanics offer a lot of promise for fine-tuning the command. If he does that, he has the potential to be a front line guy. As you point out, the control is already there. Either way, he's easily a back end of the rotation option in the very near future.
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on May 7, 2015 17:25:27 GMT -5
Ogando ... probably on the list of starters as a last resort. But he meets the definition of "Internal Pitching Options".
If Wright joined the rotation and failed, it wouldn't bother me a bit. Come July, this team will not be sentimental one bit about Masterson, Buchholz, Breslow.
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steveofbradenton
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Post by steveofbradenton on May 7, 2015 18:16:51 GMT -5
Norm is right about Masterson. He needs to be in the pen to have any real value. Left handed hitters actually sprint to the plate from the dugout to face him. His throwing motion will help him (some) in the pen, if Farrell is careful when he is brought in (against right handed hitters). To me Steven Wright should be brought up when Masterson turn comes back around and start. Masterson should be placed in the pen as a 6th or 7th innings guy who can give us 2 to 3 innings.
Matt Barnes should be brought up and be used exclusively in relief. Eduardo Rodriguez should be pointed towards a spot in our rotation by the All-Star game. When Escobar is healthy, I'm all for him replacing Breslow. We need more "heat" out there. When Castillo is ready, Allen Craig may be a good chip to pick up a power arm for the pen also. I'm hoping Craig takes this opportunity (with Hanley down) to force them to keep him....but things need to change. If Buchholz and Miley don't get it together, I'm all for placing Brian Johnson on the 40 and giving him an opportunity too.
It is wishful thinking that our new pitching coach will be able to coax consistency out of Clay, but here is to fairy tales that end positively.
I by no means am giving up on winning this watered down American League East, but I would love to see Rodriguez and Johnson prove themselves this year. As to Joe Kelly, he too could be a very strong bullpen arm for us with that stuff. What the future holds for the Sox in 2015 is not clear, but what is clear is that there will be a lot of movement in the rotation and in the pen over the next 5 months.
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Post by charliezink16 on May 7, 2015 21:39:27 GMT -5
I'm just about ready for Steven Wright to get another shot in the rotation. He went through some initial struggles, but has really settled in during his last two starts. Wright's knuckler is working right now, give him a shot.
Last 2 AAA starts: 2-0 14 IP 7 H 1 ER 0.64 ERA 14K/5BB .152/.231/.217 Opp slash line 14GB/19FB/7LD 62% Strike rate and an impressive 15 swinging strikes in his last outing
SSS sure, but we could use any help in the rotation...
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 7, 2015 23:44:55 GMT -5
At the moment, I don't think there's much the Sox can do.
I think Barnes will get the spot vacated by Mujica. That's obvious.
I think at this point only Rodriguez or Wright could help the rotation. I think Johnson's control is in question right now, and Owens has a lot more developing to do. I think it would be better for Rodriguez to get more innings, maybe another month or two.
As aggravating as watching Buchholz can be, the Sox have to see if he can keep up the K/BB ratio, but limit the damage. When runners get on Buchholz goes from Cy Young to a guy who can't get anybody out.
Porcello should be fine. Kelly could be a good bullpen arm, but the Sox do owe it to themselves to see if he can harness his stuff and the only way to do that is to let him pitch.
This leaves Miley and Masterson. Miley's stuff, unlike Masterson, hasn't been diminished, and of course, they've signed him to a 3 year deal, so they're going to have to ride things out with him longer.
So that leaves Masterson, who is going to be the disaster I thought he'd be when they signed him once they couldn't get Lester. There's no way Masterson should be in the rotation. At this point he should be the long man in the bullpen.
If Miley continues to tank, then I'd look at Wright, but soon I'd replace Masterson with Rodriguez.
Unless the Sox can get a good rental pitcher by parting with 2nd tier guys like Cecchini, Coyle, Bradley, Brentz, Marrero, then I would stay away from the trade market, and save the money for the offseason when $50 million should come off the Sox' books.
Other than Barnes, who I'm not convinced will be overly effective right off the bat, I don't think the Sox have a lot of internal options to help the pen.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on May 8, 2015 8:57:48 GMT -5
For those calling for Rodriguez to come up now, I'd invite you to read Chaz's latest Write-Up for this week, which focused on him: news.soxprospects.com/2015/05/the-write-up-eduardo-rodriguez.htmlI know for me, personally, it made me think that he's a pitcher who could use some more development time. It's one plus pitch and two average secondaries that flash above-average. Certainly could be enough. I know I'd rather give him some time to marinate first though, after reading that. OTOH, I'd definitely be down for giving him a spot start or something, perhaps during the stretch from 5/19 to 6/7 in which the club has 20 in a row with no off days.
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Post by Oregon Norm on May 8, 2015 9:35:04 GMT -5
Good stuff. I'd like the team to do just that, get him a spot start or two. I think his stuff might play up well in a short stint, and he'd get a feeling for big league hitters, what he needs to do going forward.
I'm not quite as concerned about the contrast between the changeup and the heat. He regularly works at a velocity that will help that. He does need to get a good enough feel for the fade on the changeup to get consistency. The pitches are hard to differentiate coming out of his hand, so if he does get that action all the time I think he'll be very effective.
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Post by mookiemagicfan on May 8, 2015 11:04:44 GMT -5
Good stuff. I'd like the team to do just that, get him a spot start or two. I think his stuff might play up well in a short stint, and he'd get a feeling for big league hitters, what he needs to do going forward. I'm not quite as concerned about the contrast between the changeup and the heat. He regularly works at a velocity that will help that. He does need to get a good enough feel for the fade on the changeup to get consistency. The pitches are hard to differentiate coming out of his hand, so if he does get that action all the time I think he'll be very effective. The O's wanted him to throw his CH around 82mph. But he wasn't getting the movement on the pitch, plus his arm speed was too slow to where I think batters could tell it was coming. Since coming to the RS he has thrown it where he is comfortable, around 88mph. He gets more movement and his arm speed is close to his FB. But, I believe he does need more time in AAA. During that 20 straight game stretch we should go to a 6 man rotation to keep our starters as fresh as possible over the long haul and potentially save our BP some. When we do have that stretch I would bring up Wright as well as Johnson and slide Masterson into the pen as the long man for when Buch, Miley, Kelly, and potentially anyone else starts. My 2cents. Not worth much.
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Post by jimed14 on May 8, 2015 11:26:28 GMT -5
I'd love to see the Red Sox piggyback Wright and Kelly. I know it'll never happen.
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Post by jmei on May 8, 2015 11:52:14 GMT -5
The solution to an overworked bullpen is not to replace one of your relievers in favor of a six-man rotation. A long man might help, though.
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Post by jimed14 on May 8, 2015 11:54:27 GMT -5
The solution to an overworked bullpen is not to replace one of your relievers in favor of a six-man rotation. A long man might help, though. Eh, they could do it and go with a shorter bench since we have Holt. Not for long though. This team does seem to really need a long man.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on May 8, 2015 18:16:41 GMT -5
For those calling for Rodriguez to come up now, I'd invite you to read Chaz's latest Write-Up for this week, which focused on him: news.soxprospects.com/2015/05/the-write-up-eduardo-rodriguez.htmlI know for me, personally, it made me think that he's a pitcher who could use some more development time. It's one plus pitch and two average secondaries that flash above-average. Certainly could be enough. I know I'd rather give him some time to marinate first though, after reading that. OTOH, I'd definitely be down for giving him a spot start or something, perhaps during the stretch from 5/19 to 6/7 in which the club has 20 in a row with no off days. I looked for a E-Rod thread to make this observation, and couldn't find one, so this is a good spot for it ... Chaz makes one mistake in that very fine writeup, but it's a mistake everyone makes ... and that's this: Even so, the [chanegup] is too firm with not enough degree of separation from his fastball for me, even though its where he's most comfortable throwing it in the upper velos and get his best movement. I did a big study of what makes a chanegup effective. Here are the conclusions about velocity. 1) It's relatively unimportant. A coach or organization should never bother getting a guy to alter his natural or favorite velocity. 2) Be that as it may, all things being equal, the least effective changeups are those thrown at precisely the MLB average velocity differential of 11 mph. (There was nothing in the regression model, which was very complex, that would have forced this result, and it came out right on the nose, to whatever the first decimal place was. Edit: Everything in this regression model, BTW, was massively significant statistically. And a study with a completely different methodology -- I used season averages, they used pitch/fx and PBP -- came up with the exact same finding, although no one noticed (including myself at the time) because the results were counter-intuitive and the author lost track of whether a positive linear weights value was good for the pitcher or the hitter, and reported the results backwards! And everyone puzzled over why a really slow change would be really bad.) The effectiveness versus velocity differential curve is U-shaped, with slower (a la Buchholz) being great and faster (a la Beckett) being good. So E-Rod's 6 mph velo differential is actually really good. The reason for this seems clear. If guys misidentify the change, they're going to make weak or no contact regardless of velocity. If they do pick up the spin, their muscle memory is geared to the average chanegeup, and any difference from average is going to disrupt their timing.
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Post by jmei on May 8, 2015 19:10:13 GMT -5
I always forget how young Rodroguez is. Per the SP.com report linked above, he's the youngest pitcher in AAA, which I sure didn't know.
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Post by jmei on May 9, 2015 13:17:45 GMT -5
Here's another detailed scouting report of Rodriguez from BP's Al Skorupa: www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=26285It's largely the same stuff we've been hearing: plus fastball, with the ability to get swings-and-misses, but no plus secondaries. Projection of a number three starter. One interesting new note: Skorupa suggests that Rodriguez's command is significantly better from the windup than from the stretch.
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Post by jdb on May 9, 2015 14:50:09 GMT -5
Gammons was on Inside Pitch late yesterday and said he's getting the feeling Rodriguez will be up "real soon". He left it pretty open ended so who knows if that's after a few more starts or 4-6 weeks or so.
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TearsIn04
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Post by TearsIn04 on May 9, 2015 22:48:10 GMT -5
The Lackey trade was curious at the time and nine months later it looks like a major mistake. Lackey was a solid 2A or No. 3 starter and was due to pitch for $500,000 this year. That should have given the RS leverage in working out, let's say, a two-year deal that would have gotten them a SP at a bargain-basement price.
Instead, they traded him for a cooked and injured Craig who has money coming for three years and for Joe Kelly, a SP whose stuff wasn't translating into K's (though his K rate has improved this year despite his other overall ugly numbers).
The 2015 Lackey is still a very good SP. He's putting up an ERA-plus of 122 and a WHIP of 1.17 with the Cards.
Unwind that trade and the trade for Miley (RDLR with the D'backs: ERA-plus is an unimpressive 91 but his FIP is lower than his ERA and his WHIP is virtually the same as Lackey's) and the SP is significantly improved.
Throw in the botched Lester negotiations last spring and it's clear the Red Sox are where they are because of a series of bad organizational decisions. Had better decisions been made, the current team would still have a couple of weak spots in the rotation but the SP would be eminently more fixable through internal options like S. Wright and EdRod than it is now.
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Post by redsoxfan1994 on May 10, 2015 3:34:29 GMT -5
What is the extent of Edwin Escobar's injury? When is he slated to return? I know he has a future in the bullpen, but he could definitely make 4-6 starts for the Red Sox while the FO figures out what the heck their plan is.
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Post by GyIantosca on May 10, 2015 7:14:24 GMT -5
Regarding the bullpen I think the answer is at AAA. This is the year they made choices that came back to haunt them. It's the same story year after year. It's not the best that crack the bullpen but who has no options and who is more veteran service time. Maybe this is the year that wasn't the best thing to do. The Sox already DFA Varvano and Mujica.
Now the starter is harder. They are killing the Sox always giving up runs right away. I don't know how much longer they can wait it out. Buch is killing them. This has to be his last year . Eventually Rodriguez and Johnson should get a shot. Maybe at the deadline make a deal they have the money to lock up one more good pitcher.
The lineup will get it toghether with Castillo coming up. I would like them to give JBJ and Brentz a chance. I know they brought up Jackie but a real chance.
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Post by jmei on May 10, 2015 11:16:31 GMT -5
The big misses were Miley and Masterson. Porcello looks like what we thought he was (a back-end two/front-end three), and Kelly looks like a serviceable back-end starter (though I'll note that I thought the Lackey trade looked bad at the time and looks even worse now). But they needed Miley and Masterson to be solid mid-rotation guys, and they've been among the worst starters in the league, even if we just look at their peripherals.
I think Buchholz will be fine. If you set the over/under for his ERA the rest of the season at 4.00, I'd take the under without having to think too much about it.
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Post by Guidas on May 10, 2015 11:42:17 GMT -5
The big misses were Miley and Masterson. Porcello looks like what we thought he was (a back-end two/front-end three), and Kelly looks like a serviceable back-end starter (though I'll note that I thought the Lackey trade looked bad at the time and looks even worse now). But they needed Miley and Masterson to be solid mid-rotation guys, and they've been among the worst starters in the league, even if we just look at their peripherals. I think Buchholz will be fine. If you set the over/under for his ERA the rest of the season at 4.00, I'd take the under without having to think too much about it. I thought Miley was a miss from the start and continue to believe this. Had a slight bit more optimism about Masterson, but still a lot of trepidation on his ability vs. lefties and really relied on the F.O. evals that they were sure his pre-knee injury velo was back. Miss all around. I don't know what defines "solid" for Kelly when his BB and xFIP totals have escalated every year he's been in MLB. The velo's great to see on the FB but if he's the bar for a #5 I think I'd rather have someone like Johnson there and try to minimize the free passes. I really think this guy is better served in small, single-inning does from the pen. There is some opportunity here, though. Kelly and Masterson to the pen and Miley down to the #5 til you can find a GM at the deadline or more likely in the off-season who thinks he'll break-out like the brain trust at 4 Yawkey Way was so sure he would. But again, you'll likely be selling low with the new contract, even though it's "affordable" it will be more than he probably would've gotten in arb if he continues with this stinker of a year.
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Post by jimed14 on May 10, 2015 11:53:40 GMT -5
Regardless of believing Miley was a miss, there is no way in hell to predict he'd have the results he has had so far. I mean why would anyone predict a 52 LOB%?
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on May 10, 2015 12:05:50 GMT -5
I just looked at all of Masterson's metrics and pitch/fx data (pitch performance and effectiveness, and plate discipline), and to call them ugly would be be a massive understatement.
Some lowlights: He used to be about 53% in the strike zone, last year was 47.7%, this year 45.9%. Meanwhile, his Z-Contact, which has always been around 88%, is up to 95.3%. His slider was a plus pitch even last year, but this year it's below average. His LD% is way up over his career worst, and his GB% way down. And of course his velo is down 2.5 - 3 mph even from his crappy last year.
He's actually been lucky on HR/FB, and infield and bunt hits. He's had the usual team bad luck clustering his hits, but the two offset, so his advanced metrics are all roughly the same as his ERA (4.89 SIERA, 4.91 xFIP).
He should not make another start. No one will claim him if he's DFA'd, so let him and Wright swap jobs.
Kelly probably needs to go to the pen (which could use the help) to see if his command improves, and maybe you do that very shortly, with Johnson or E-Rod getting a shot, but I'm comfortable giving Kelly 2 more starts to let the kids work on things.
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